Ytib From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 493 posts, RR: 1 Reply 1, posted (6 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 7267 times:
With the current agreement in place UA can not fly to LHR from Denver. If they decide to fly to London it would need to be LGW and at that time BA would also have to switch to LGW as well.
Detroitflyer From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 375 posts, RR: 0 Reply 3, posted (6 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 7208 times:
Quoting Danairbus (Reply 2): If UA in the future decides to operate DEN to London BA would have to change there flight from DEN-LHR to DEN-LGW.
i guess they would not be too happy about that??? Anyway why do they have to do that.. I thought that BA, AA, and UA all had LHR rights.
IIRC AA and BA both seve LHR from NYC, woulnt this be the same????
And couldnt both of them just serve LHR and call it even, instead of switching to LGW..
Cjbmibe From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2006, 108 posts, RR: 0 Reply 5, posted (6 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 7175 times:
Its all part of the Bermuda II agreement. BA is allowed to serve some cities in the US from LHR, and by the same token US and AA (who bought Pan Am's and TWA's rights). However BA is allowed to operate certain routes from LHR if there has been no competition for a few years, if such competition starts again, as would be the case with DEN then both operators must use LGW.
I cant remember how VS got Transatlantic rights from LHR, other than successfully lobbying our government.
I think an exception was made to some destinations like JFK and EWR for plain and simple reasons as the fact not connecting NY with London's main airport is just stupid.
How can I soar like an Eagle when I have to work with these turkeys?
WesternA318 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 5395 posts, RR: 25 Reply 6, posted (6 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 7158 times:
Quoting Detroitflyer (Reply 3): I thought that BA, AA, and UA all had LHR rights.
They do, but under the grandfather acts (from "inheriting" the routes from Pan Am and TWA), the US airlines are only allowed to fly to LHR from certain cities agreed to by both countries under the Bermuda II agreements. I think the cities are JFK/EWR, PHL, BOS, PIT, DTW, SFO, LAX, SEA, ORD, and I believe DFW??
Woohoo! Back to Beirut in Oct '13! (Along with a stop in DOH for 4 days)
IADLHR From Italy, joined Apr 2005, 669 posts, RR: 0 Reply 8, posted (6 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 7117 times:
There has been some speculation that the BA flight LHR-Denver is very, very,very profitable for BA.
I know it wont happen but I wonder what BA would do if UA decided to start Denver-LGW and thus force the BA LHR-Denver to LGW.
In my more cynical moments I wonder if BA would try and amend Bermuda II so they could keep their flight at LHR. On the other hand all the traffic might go to a UA flight LHR-Denver due to the connection possibilities and thus a huge drop off of revenue for the BA flight. All of this might make it unprofitable for BA to continue their flight.
People speak that UA and AA are also dont want LHR opened to more US carriers. I suppose there is an element of truth in that. However, with openskies, UA would be free to start the Denver flight to LHR and AA could start DFW-LHR.
8herveg From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2006, 1107 posts, RR: 0 Reply 9, posted (6 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 7117 times:
Quoting Ytib (Reply 1): With the current agreement in place UA can not fly to LHR from Denver. If they decide to fly to London it would need to be LGW and at that time BA would also have to switch to LGW as well.
Quoting Ytib (Reply 1): If UA in the future decides to operate DEN to London BA would have to change there flight from DEN-LHR to DEN-LGW.
So it is basically because DEN is one of the 'smaller' 'leisure' destinations, unlike NYC, which is much more 'business' orientated?
OA412 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 4981 posts, RR: 25 Reply 10, posted (6 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 7093 times:
Quoting WesternA318 (Reply 6): They do, but under the grandfather acts (from "inheriting" the routes from Pan Am and TWA), the US airlines are only allowed to fly to LHR from certain cities agreed to by both countries under the Bermuda II agreements. I think the cities are JFK/EWR, PHL, BOS, PIT, DTW, SFO, LAX, SEA, ORD, and I believe DFW??
US airlines can also fly MIA and IAD-LHR and, surprisingly, MSP and ANC-LHR although neither are currently being flown. Also DFW, or any other airport in TX, is not an LHR gateway for either US or British carriers.
OA412 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 4981 posts, RR: 25 Reply 11, posted (6 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 7066 times:
Quoting IADLHR (Reply 8): I know it wont happen but I wonder what BA would do if UA decided to start Denver-LGW and thus force the BA LHR-Denver to LGW.
Like you said, that is very unlikely to happen as UA is not very likely to open up a brand new station at LGW to operate a single daily flight to DEN when all of its other US-LON flights are to LHR. Honestly, I think BA should be much more worried about PHX than DEN. Once the A332's start arriving on the property, it is possible that US could initiate PHX-LGW service thus forcing BA to transfer its PHX operation back to LGW.
IADLHR From Italy, joined Apr 2005, 669 posts, RR: 0 Reply 12, posted (6 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 7050 times:
Quoting OA412 (Reply 11): Honestly, I think BA should be much more worried about PHX than DEN. Once the A332's start arriving on the property, it is possible that US could initiate PHX-LGW service thus forcing BA to transfer its PHX operation back to LGW.
Point well taken. Fom what I have heard I dont think the BA flight LHR-PHX is quite as successsful as Denver though I could be wrong.
Any idea when the new planes start to arrive that might possibly bring the possibility of PHX-LGW?
N1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 25852 posts, RR: 79 Reply 13, posted (6 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 7051 times:
Quoting Detroitflyer (Reply 3): i guess they would not be too happy about that??? Anyway why do they have to do that.. I thought that BA, AA, and UA all had LHR rights.
They do all have LHR-US rights, but that doesn't mean they can pick the airports they use those rights to. There is a reason AA's London flights from RDU and DFW go to LGW.
Quoting Detroitflyer (Reply 3): IIRC AA and BA both seve LHR from NYC, woulnt this be the same????
NYC (which includes JFK, EWR and theoretically LGA) is a Heathrow gateway under Bermuda II. DEN is not.
Quoting Cjbmibe (Reply 5): However BA is allowed to operate certain routes from LHR if there has been no competition for a few years,
It doesn't have to do with competition, it has to do with traffic volume. The rule only applies to the British side and it only applies to airports that have no competition. If they can prove that for 2 years the traffic levels are above a certain level (1 full 777 a day certainly makes it), then they can switch the flight to LHR. This is why BA was able to switch PHx, SAN (no longer operating) and DEN to LHR some years ago.
IAD and BWI are considered co-terminals under Bermuda II.
Quoting IADLHR (Reply 8): I know it wont happen but I wonder what BA would do if UA decided to start Denver-LGW and thus force the BA LHR-Denver to LGW.
The issue there is that United, unlike American, has no established presence at LGW, which would mean the great expense of re-establishing a station at the airport, something United has shown a reluctance to do.
Quoting 8herveg (Reply 9): So it is basically because DEN is one of the 'smaller' 'leisure' destinations, unlike NYC, which is much more 'business' orientated?
That is not it at all. It just happens that the Bermuda II gateways were set at a time before Denver had the prominance it does now.
NateDAL From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 416 posts, RR: 0 Reply 14, posted (6 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 7011 times:
Quoting Danairbus (Reply 4):
Bermuda II they both can not fly to the LHR because DEN is not under the list where two carriers can serve LHR.
There is far too much confusion about Bermuda II and the LGW/LHR restrictions.
I quote the relevant text of the treaty below.
Quote: Annex 1-Route Schedules
Nonstop combination air services by a United States airline or airlines between Atlanta and London and between Houston and London will serve London-Gatwick Airport, provided that the United Kingdom airline serving these United States points also serves London-Gatwick Airport on these routes. If nonstop combination air services between Dallas/Ft. Worth and London are operated by a United States airline which already serves London-Heathrow, that airline will serve London-Heathrow on this route until a United Kingdom airline operating nonstop combination air services on this route serves London-Gatwick Airport, at which time the United States airline will also serve London-Gatwick Airport on its nonstop combination air services on this route. If the United States airline designated to serve Dallas/Ft. Worth-London does not already serve London-Heathrow, it will serve London-Gatwick Airport, provided that the designated United Kingdom airline, when it starts services on the route, also serves London-Gatwick Airport.
Please get it right! The London airport restrictions only apply to Atlanta, Dallas/Ft. Worth and Houston!
Allstarflyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 15, posted (6 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 6971 times:
Quoting Ytib (Reply 1): With the current agreement in place UA can not fly to LHR from Denver. If they decide to fly to London it would need to be LGW and at that time BA would also have to switch to LGW as well.
Guess N1120A answered the one about PIT, but I didn't see BOS or EWR on the monitor last time, not to mention PHL or DTW at all. The reason I say all that is because I basically stood for minutes memorizing which way I could try to get home (all on UA - but I was checking out AA and BA for kicks, too).
Quoting OA412 (Reply 10): MSP and ANC-LHR although neither are currently being flown.
That ANC flight would stink. I dreaded even having to get on LHR-SFO or LHR-LAX.
Quoting N1120A (Reply 13): Quoting IADLHR (Reply 8):
I know it wont happen but I wonder what BA would do if UA decided to start Denver-LGW and thus force the BA LHR-Denver to LGW.
The issue there is that United, unlike American, has no established presence at LGW, which would mean the great expense of re-establishing a station at the airport, something United has shown a reluctance to do.
NateDAL From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 416 posts, RR: 0 Reply 16, posted (6 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 6916 times:
Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 15): That ANC flight would stink. I dreaded even having to get on LHR-SFO or LHR-LAX.
Allstarflyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 17, posted (6 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 6833 times:
Quoting NateDAL (Reply 16): Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 15):
That ANC flight would stink. I dreaded even having to get on LHR-SFO or LHR-LAX.
LHR-LAX is nearly 1000 miles longer than LHR-ANC.
Good cal - after I posted that, I forgot to consider the flight path over the Arctic areas that the LHR-ANC would take and that it might be considerably less than going to the West Coast of the US.
Detroitflyer From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 375 posts, RR: 0 Reply 18, posted (6 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 6804 times:
Quoting IADLHR (Reply 8): There has been some speculation that the BA flight LHR-Denver is very, very,very profitable for BA.
I know it wont happen but I wonder what BA would do if UA decided to start Denver-LGW and thus force the BA LHR-Denver to LGW.
Why not from what you said about profits, it would seem like a good idea. It may also serve to piss of BA, which may then = most push for the ammending of heathrow.
Quoting Cjbmibe (Reply 5): BA is allowed to serve some cities in the US from LHR, and by the same token US and AA (who bought Pan Am's and TWA's rights).
AirCop From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 19, posted (6 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 6799 times:
Quoting IADLHR (Reply 12): Any idea when the new planes start to arrive that might possibly bring the possibility of PHX-LGW?
Parker of US Airways was quoted in the paper when the merger was announced that the earliest PHX would see Europe flights is 2011, and I would guess that a Star Alliance hub would come before LGW. Just my
VV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 6631 posts, RR: 17 Reply 20, posted (6 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 6704 times:
Quoting Cjbmibe (Reply 5): I cant remember how VS got Transatlantic rights from LHR, other than successfully lobbying our government.
The original Bermuda 2 agreement specified two US airlines to serve LHR - PA and TW - and one British airline - BA.
When PA went belly up and TW was in deep tapioca the agreement had to be modified to allow AA and UA to replace them. As part of the negotiations to allow this it was agreed that VS would become a second UK airline allowed to fly from LHR to nominated US cities.
Quoting NateDAL (Reply 14): Please get it right! The London airport restrictions only apply to Atlanta, Dallas/Ft. Worth and Houston!
But the restrictions do not apply to London Stansted or London Luton, but only to London Heathrow and London Gatwick. STN and LTN along with all other UK airports except LHR and LGW are effectively 'open skies' for all US airlines from any US airport.
Second there are four limited length lists of US gateway cities. One is for US airlines allowed to serve LHR. The second is for British airlines allowed to serve the US from LHR. The third is for any US airline to serve LGW. The fourth is for any British airline wishing to serve the USA from LGW. None of these lists are identical. So, for example, ANC and MSY are on a US airline list but appear on neither of the UK airline lists.
Here the word 'gateway' is important. So although BA is not permitted to serve IAH from LHR (but can serve it from LGW), it can and does fly to IAH from LHR through a gateway city that used to be Chicago but has been Detroit since the start of this winter's schedules. However BA has no rights for the ORD-IAH or DTW-IAH legs of those flights. Similarly neither Portland or Honolulu are gateway cities on any list but UA flies HNL-SFO-LHR and PDX-ORD-LHR. It, of course, has traffic rights on the HNL-SFO and PDX-ORD legs of these rotations.
Quoting N1120A (Reply 13):
IAD and BWI are considered co-terminals under Bermuda II.
This is because Bermuda 2 (with the notable exception of New York City) lists cities and not airports that can be served from LHR and/or LGW. NYC is qualified on all four lists as being JFK and/or EWR (presumably effectively excluding LGA).
MPDPilot From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 935 posts, RR: 0 Reply 21, posted (6 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 6704 times:
Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 15): but I didn't see BOS or EWR on the monitor last time, not to mention PHL or DTW at all.
All four of these are served by BA to LHR. BOS is also served by AA. I don't know about the others. The DTW flight continues on to IAH.
One mile of highway gets you one mile, one mile of runway gets you anywhere.
Gigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16215 posts, RR: 88 Reply 22, posted (6 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 6692 times:
Just to get us back on track, one of the first things the combined UA/US would have done was open DEN-LGW.
I imagine swapping PHL to LHR would have been a priority.
AirFrnt From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 2775 posts, RR: 43 Reply 23, posted (6 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 6645 times:
One other point is that UA decided a while ago to force all international routes out to the coasts. DEN is meant as a O&D and domestic transit airport only. They may be reconsidering that now that there will be 3x non-stops to europe, and F9 making a killing in Mexico.
Australia1 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 24, posted (6 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 6604 times:
Quoting 8herveg (Thread starter): Currently only BA fly daily (I think) to London Heathrow from Denver.
Thomsonfly operate high density 767's we believe, London(not sure which airport) to Denver during northern winter (might be charters).
Be very hard to compete with these fares !!!
25 AirFrnt: Bermuda II IIRC only governs scheduled service. I am very sure there is no scheduled Thomsonfly service in DEN. I haven't heard of charters, but it's
26 MPDPilot: So going off of this info, could delta operate a charter service to LHR.
28 DIA77: These flights operate out of Gatwick. They did very well last year but I'm not sure if they are running this winter.
29 UAL777UK: UA has said for many years that it wants open skies into LHR and welcomes competition. It's a bad secret that if and when it ever happens UA will fly
30 8herveg: So when will the Bermuda 11 act be broken so that LHR and LGW become 'open skies' airports? I really do think it is time. Personally I think it should
31 IADLHR: I really do think it is time. Personally I think it should either happen by the time T5 opens at LHR when all the airlines go to their respective term
32 WA707atMSP: Several years ago, AA wanted to switch their LHR-MIA route to LGW, in exchange for moving DFW-LGW to LHR. The British government would not allow the s
33 United787: ORD isn't exactly on the coast, unless you consider Lake Michigan a coast, I would call it a shore. UA's international traffic from ORD goes east, we
34 Detroitflyer: Why did this Bermuda 2 thingy come about?? It just does not make sense.
35 UAL777UK: It probably did in the bronze age when it was agreed but in todays world it archaic and should be ripped up as sson as possible!!
36 AirFrnt: Not with LH sitting on a FRA and MUC nonstop. Or with BA sitting on top of a LHR non-stop.
37 HighFlyer9790: it all has to do with Bermuda II... Broadly speaking, only a combined four airlines from the US and UK are allowed to operate flights between London
38 DiscoverCSG: I was in SEA last week (see my TR - CO Mileage run), and can definitelyreport that a BA744 was there, and didn't look lost.
39 Cba: Ok, so DEN can get LHR service only if a British airline operates the route, but UA would have to fly to LGW even though they have LHR rights? And if
40 AirFrnt: Yes. The brits have a incredible amount of leverage over this, and they have used it to get British Airways better access to the US market then anyon
41 WA707atMSP: I know I'm going to really get flamed for this, but here's my $0.02: When Pan Am and TWA sold their LHR routes in 1990, CO and DL (or, for that matte
42 WesternA318: At the time around 1990-1992, CO had so many problems from Lorenzo's departure and then lack of management until 1994, notonly wasmoney an issue, but
43 Cba: You're right, it was a golden opportunity for AA and UA. DL also spent top-dollar on Pan Am's Europe network, although that became a worthless invest
44 Ssides: I wish. I know it's no panacea, but international service at DFW would see great improvement if AA and BA could serve LHR instead of LGW.
45 EVA777SEA: BA has 10 flights a week to SEA right now with 7 being a 744 and the other 3 being a 772
46 Cba: Yeah, that is a big bummer for OneWorld for BA to not be able to serve AA's biggest hub from LHR, and puts them at a disadvantage when competing with
47 IADLHR: That is precisely right and something we dont hear too often during the controversy of opening LHR to all US carriers. The disadvantage of Oneworld i
48 Australia1: so what's to stop any airlines running a long series of charters ??? (for all intensive purposes that could appear to be scheduled services, in fact
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Didn't see that one on the monitor last time (Feb '06).
All very insightful, N1120A.
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