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Bombardier Officially Anounces Status Of C-Series  
User currently offlineLawgman From Canada, joined Feb 2005, 71 posts, RR: 0
Posted (7 years 6 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 5655 times:

http://www.bombardier.com/index.jsp?..._4/0_0_1_7_4_2/cseries_update.html

Essentially, Bombardier is still working on a business plan for the C-Series but nothing earth shattering to report.

To summarize:
No official launch yet
Talking with international partners
Will provide a new update by the end of March
Considering using more composites in wings and fuselage
Considering using a next generation engine
If the program goes ahead, entry date won't be until 2013.

Conference call with investors and reporters at 10:30am EST. Probably more info will come from that.

IMO, looks like they are considering going next-gen technology route, hence the 2013 launch date. I can't see this program being a success and will be surprised if there is anything new to report in March.

44 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineOkie73 From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 445 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (7 years 6 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 5632 times:

Heard a rumor they were talking with Boeing about outfitting the C series with the same basic cockpit as the 737NG series. Would make it an easy transition for pilots from the C series to the Boeing products, and would allow Boeing to have its 737 follow on start at about 140 or so seats....like the 737-700.

User currently offlineTimboflier215 From United Kingdom, joined May 2005, 1323 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (7 years 6 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 5577 times:

Could Bombardier partner Boeing and Embraer partner Airbus, so that the 737-600 and A318 replacements will be done by their respective partners, with clean sheet designs and not shrinks, making them more competitive? Or would Boeing and Airbus want to keep this niche all to themselves if possible?

User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 962 posts, RR: 51
Reply 3, posted (7 years 6 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 5511 times:

Quoting Timboflier215 (Reply 2):
Could Bombardier partner Boeing and Embraer partner Airbus

EADS owned a minority stake of Embraer (about 2%) until they recently announced plans to sell those shares. I'm not aware of where that currently stands. Bombardier approached Boeing about collaborative projects (including the C-series), but Boeing turned them down.

Quoting Timboflier215 (Reply 2):
so that the 737-600 and A318 replacements will be done by their respective partners, with clean sheet designs and not shrinks, making them more competitive? Or would Boeing and Airbus want to keep this niche all to themselves if possible?

With new production technology these days, it's possible that the low-end and high-end variants of the 737/A320 replacement will not suffer the same problems as the 736/A318 and 739/A321. I suppose you could say that a clean-sheet design will always be superior, but if the gap can be sufficiently narrowed between a 737-600 replacement and an all-new C-Series, it's hard to justify the investment necessary for the all-new aircraft.


User currently offlineTimboflier215 From United Kingdom, joined May 2005, 1323 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (7 years 6 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 5500 times:

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 3):
I suppose you could say that a clean-sheet design will always be superior, but if the gap can be sufficiently narrowed between a 737-600 replacement and an all-new C-Series, it's hard to justify the investment necessary for the all-new aircraft.

I guess that is true. But if Bombardier or Embraer do go it alone, and make a success, would Airbus or Boeing rue the fact that they did not partner with them to share their success? Or do you think that there is no way that the smaller manufacturers have the resources to build a competitive model?


User currently offlineDrgmobile From Canada, joined Aug 2006, 611 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (7 years 6 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 5352 times:

Could Bombardier partner Boeing and Embraer partner Airbus, so that the 737-600 and A318 replacements will be done by their respective partners, with clean sheet designs and not shrinks, making them more competitive? Or would Boeing and Airbus want to keep this niche all to themselves if possible?

I suggested that it might be attractive for Boeing or Airbus to partner with Bombardier a while back, but got SHOT DOWN. I still think it would make a lot of sense from both perspectives.

Doogie


User currently offlineTangowhisky From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 909 posts, RR: 7
Reply 6, posted (7 years 6 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 5293 times:

Quoting Lawgman (Thread starter):
If the program goes ahead, entry date won't be until 2013.

2013 is now too close for A and B's A320 and 737 replacements. By then the airlines will know what A and B are offering and most certainly these new replacement models will achieve at the very least 15% better trip costs using new engines (for example, the 787 engine burn 20% less fuel than the 767 engines), new lighter materials than current metal A320s and 737s, and advanced systems such as more electrics for lower maintenance cost targets. All these combined should wash away Bombardier's attempt in gaining the 15% cost savings they are trying to get with today's 737-200/300/500/600, MD80s and A318/A319.

Quoting Timboflier215 (Reply 2):
With new production technology these days, it's possible that the low-end and high-end variants of the 737/A320 replacement will not suffer the same problems as the 736/A318 and 739/A321. I suppose you could say that a clean-sheet design will always be superior, but if the gap can be sufficiently narrowed between a 737-600 replacement and an all-new C-Series, it's hard to justify the investment necessary for the all-new aircraft.

 checkmark 

Also, by 2013, deals would be made and the MD-80s and B737 Classics would be gone to A and B for the reasons you provided.

I would not be surprised if Embraer may come out of left field within the next 12 months for the announcement of a 120-150 seat jet family with a service entry of early 2012. No doubt a new class 20,000 lbs class engine can be ready in 4-5 years.



Only the paranoid survive
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21476 posts, RR: 60
Reply 7, posted (7 years 6 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 5222 times:

So now Bombardier even has to build a composite jet to compete in the future. 787 changing the game again?

Quoting Okie73 (Reply 1):
Heard a rumor they were talking with Boeing about outfitting the C series with the same basic cockpit as the 737NG series. Would make it an easy transition for pilots from the C series to the Boeing products, and would allow Boeing to have its 737 follow on start at about 140 or so seats....like the 737-700.

This would be a great decision, both for Boeing and Bombardier, but we'll see.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineDw747400 From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 1257 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (7 years 6 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 5141 times:

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 3):
Bombardier approached Boeing about collaborative projects (including the C-series), but Boeing turned them down.

How long ago was this? I wonder if now that the Yellowstone product line is more developed, and Boeing has tossed around the idea of a Y0.5, a partnership would be more profitable. It would relieve stress on the bottom end of Y1 (avoid a heavy shrink), allowing it to reach up towards the 787 without loosing a substantial amount of range.



CFI--Certfied Freakin Idiot
User currently offlineNaritaflyer From Japan, joined Apr 2006, 549 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (7 years 6 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 5101 times:

Quoting Okie73 (Reply 1):
Heard a rumor they were talking with Boeing about outfitting the C series with the same basic cockpit as the 737NG series. Would make it an easy transition for pilots from the C series to the Boeing products, and would allow Boeing to have its 737 follow on start at about 140 or so seats....like the 737-700.

This makes no sense. If they want to wait to have a next generation product then why get the 737 avionics? The 737-700 is an old design and Boeing will readily admit that. So taking that 15 year old cockpit and put in a futuristic airplane makes no sense.


User currently offlineMrocktor From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 1668 posts, RR: 50
Reply 10, posted (7 years 6 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 5067 times:

Quoting Lawgman (Thread starter):
nothing earth shattering to report

That reads more like nothing at all to report  Embarrassment

EIS in 2013 means head on competition with both Boeing and Airbus new generation narrowbodies. Going up against two families that are sure to fill the gap from regional to widebody with a plane that only goes up to 140 seats is retarded.

Also, I doubt that at that juncture BBD will have the resources for that knife fight. Their commmercial aviation division is basically dead.


User currently offlineRikkus67 From Canada, joined Jun 2000, 1625 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (7 years 6 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 5036 times:

History repeating itself if BBD ends up partnering with Boeing for the project. Boeing briefly owned DeHavilland Canada (Dash 8/ now Q series), before selling it to BBD.
Personally, I find it great that BBD is FINALLY getting off their a**es and getting this project underway. Realistically, we shall see how it proceeds in March.
It still baffles me that BBD walked away from the D728/928. Leaving a segment to one manufacturer (regardless of who it is) is like giving the customer only Taco Bell for a choice.... duck   yuck 
Even though they have a history of rejigging others products, history has shown they are very successful at it The CRJ has run its course, and now is the (overdue) time to develop a new product.(OK, don't bash me...the CRJ WAS "revolutionary" when it was introduced...from a dream that Bill Lear had to develop a larger pax version of his largest bizjet....)

BBD...get a move on with this project..... or else the only thing people will be riding on for BBD products is trains and skido's (snowmobiles).....



AC.WA.CP.DL.RW.CO.WG.WJ.WN.KI.FL.SK.ACL.UA.US.F9
User currently offlineRheinbote From Germany, joined May 2006, 1968 posts, RR: 52
Reply 12, posted (7 years 6 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 5036 times:

I guess the right of first-pick for partnership with Boeing in the Y0.5 segment would belong to the Japanese, I guess

The reason BBD needs a partner is that they can't go it alone due to lack of finance. A partnership with Airbus seems unlikely certainyl wouldn't help in that respect. Moreover, BBD has been turned down by Airbus before. 'Incentives' by the Canadian government might be able to turn the tide, but then we'd quickly have another mudfight started in front of the WTO.


User currently offlineRikkus67 From Canada, joined Jun 2000, 1625 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (7 years 6 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 4997 times:

Quoting Rheinbote (Reply 12):
'Incentives' by the Canadian government might be able to turn the tide, but then we'd quickly have another mudfight started in front of the WTO.

...have to agree with you there.



AC.WA.CP.DL.RW.CO.WG.WJ.WN.KI.FL.SK.ACL.UA.US.F9
User currently offlineDougbr2006 From Brazil, joined Oct 2006, 391 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (7 years 6 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 4912 times:

Quoting Okie73 (Reply 1):
Heard a rumor they were talking with Boeing about outfitting the C series with the same basic cockpit as the 737NG series. Would make it an easy transition for pilots from the C series to the Boeing products, and would allow Boeing to have its 737 follow on start at about 140 or so seats....like the 737-700.

I think that BBD dont even have to talk to Boeing, they have to talk with the avionics suppliers to have a cockpit concept and if its Honeywell the basic glass cockpit offering is similar just adaptations for Autopilot, flight control and dynamics. Its a different airframe but the electronics is almost the same. You cant say that with Airbus as the use Sextant avionics so the A and B cockpits are different, but I would guess if you look at the BBD, EMB and Boeing glass cockpit its almost look alike in its technology.

The announcement is no more than expected and you can be sure that EMB will follow suit in a continued evaluation of the market. Dont expect very much in news over the next few months, and dont forget its Carnival next month in Brazil so its party time !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


User currently offlineTangowhisky From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 909 posts, RR: 7
Reply 15, posted (7 years 6 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 4835 times:

Quoting Naritaflyer (Reply 9):
Quoting Okie73 (Reply 1):
Heard a rumor they were talking with Boeing about outfitting the C series with the same basic cockpit as the 737NG series. Would make it an easy transition for pilots from the C series to the Boeing products, and would allow Boeing to have its 737 follow on start at about 140 or so seats....like the 737-700.

This makes no sense. If they want to wait to have a next generation product then why get the 737 avionics? The 737-700 is an old design and Boeing will readily admit that. So taking that 15 year old cockpit and put in a futuristic airplane makes no sense.



Exactly. First and foremost Bombardier gains to benefit with an alliance with Boeing as a common cockpit helps Bombardier get over a huge market penetration barrier. But........why would Boeing be interested in that? What would they get out of it? It complicates their business and takes options away from how they will proceed on Y0.5-Y1. Furthermore if Boeing was to partner, doesn't it make sense to partner with a country that has a huge need of all kinds of Boeing jets and a government that has $$$$ to dish out? China and India come to my mind before Canada.



Only the paranoid survive
User currently offlineRobsawatsky From Canada, joined Dec 2003, 597 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (7 years 6 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 4698 times:

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 7):
So now Bombardier even has to build a composite jet to compete in the future. 787 changing the game again?

They have to compete - full stop. If composites offer a competitive advantage they will be used. Composites in and of themselves are nothing but an alternative technology. The 787 has nothing to do with it other than as one more aircraft builder advancing composite technology, which actually makes it cheaper for those coming after.


User currently offlineLawgman From Canada, joined Feb 2005, 71 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (7 years 6 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 4554 times:

I listened to the webcast of the conference call with reporters and they provided a lot more details while answering questions of what they hope to do.

2013 is the date they set because of the new technologies. They are not only talking to Pratt about the geared turbofan engine but have re-engaged the other engine manufacturers on other next-gen engines. They indicated that they have composite capabilities at their belfast location but may also outsource (no decision made). They did not disclose the extent to which they plan to use composites. The 110 seat version is one class. It is really a 99 seat 2 class plane. The C-series will be optimized for this size if it goes ahead. The 130 seat (120 in 2 classes) version is a stretch to allows for airline capacity growth.

A question was specifically asked about the next 737 and the impact a 737 with full composite fuselage will impact on the c-series. BBD responded that they believe a composite 737 replacement shortened to 100 seats in 2 classes will still be an overweight plane for that size. (Of course, BBD did not address the fact that a Boeing 737 replacement shrunk to 110 seats will only need to be OK in terms of efficiency to obtain orders from customers who order the larger version of a 737 replacment).


User currently offlineLawgman From Canada, joined Feb 2005, 71 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (7 years 6 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 4554 times:

I listened to the webcast of the conference call with reporters and they provided a lot more details while answering questions of what they hope to do.

2013 is the date they set because of the new technologies. They are not only talking to Pratt about the geared turbofan engine but have re-engaged the other engine manufacturers on other next-gen engines. They indicated that they have composite capabilities at their belfast location but may also outsource (no decision made). They did not disclose the extent to which they plan to use composites. The 110 seat version is one class. It is really a 99 seat 2 class plane. The C-series will be optimized for this size if it goes ahead. The 130 seat (120 in 2 classes) version is a stretch to allows for airline capacity growth.

A question was specifically asked about the next 737 and the impact a 737 with full composite fuselage will impact on the c-series. BBD responded that they believe a composite 737 replacement shortened to 100 seats in 2 classes will still be an overweight plane for that size. (Of course, BBD did not address the fact that a Boeing 737 replacement shrunk to 110 seats will only need to be OK in terms of efficiency to obtain orders from customers who order the larger version of a 737 replacment).


User currently offlineLawgman From Canada, joined Feb 2005, 71 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (7 years 6 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 4555 times:

I listened to the webcast of the conference call with reporters and they provided a lot more details while answering questions of what they hope to do.

2013 is the date they set because of the new technologies. They are not only talking to Pratt about the geared turbofan engine but have re-engaged the other engine manufacturers on other next-gen engines. They indicated that they have composite capabilities at their belfast location but may also outsource (no decision made). They did not disclose the extent to which they plan to use composites. The 110 seat version is one class. It is really a 99 seat 2 class plane. The C-series will be optimized for this size if it goes ahead. The 130 seat (120 in 2 classes) version is a stretch to allows for airline capacity growth.

A question was specifically asked about the next 737 and the impact a 737 with full composite fuselage will impact on the c-series. BBD responded that they believe a composite 737 replacement shortened to 100 seats in 2 classes will still be an overweight plane for that size. (Of course, BBD did not address the fact that a Boeing 737 replacement shrunk to 110 seats will only need to be OK in terms of efficiency to obtain orders from customers who order the larger version of a 737 replacment).


User currently offlineCentrair From Japan, joined Jan 2005, 3598 posts, RR: 20
Reply 20, posted (7 years 6 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 4528 times:

Quoting Okie73 (Reply 1):
Heard a rumor they were talking with Boeing about outfitting the C series with the same basic cockpit as the 737NG series.

I remember reading maybe 2 years ago when they first started talking about teh C-series that it would have an Airbus style cockpit. The pictures showed a side control stick and glass cockpit.

C-series Media About 1 or 2 min in they talk/show about the cockpit.



Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
User currently offlineFlyibaby From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 1017 posts, RR: 6
Reply 21, posted (7 years 6 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 4485 times:

Quoting Dougbr2006 (Reply 14):
The announcement is no more than expected and you can be sure that EMB will follow suit in a continued evaluation of the market. Dont expect very much in news over the next few months, and dont forget its Carnival next month in Brazil so its party time !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

With the success EMB has been having with their new E-Jets, I seriously doubt that they will try and mimic an airbus cockpit now. They have the competitve advantage over BBD anyway with the advanced sales of their newest jets, BBD is just trying to play catch-up and offer a reason for airlines to buy their aircraft.


User currently offlineMultimark From Canada, joined Jul 2006, 796 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (7 years 6 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 4423 times:

Quoting Mrocktor (Reply 10):
Also, I doubt that at that juncture BBD will have the resources for that knife fight. Their commmercial aviation division is basically dead.

You conveniently ignore the succes of BBD's Q series. What BBD should be concentrating on is developing a replacement for the CRJ900, using the time lag to address all the shortcomings of the E180 (ooops 190).


User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21476 posts, RR: 60
Reply 23, posted (7 years 6 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 4377 times:

Quoting Robsawatsky (Reply 16):
The 787 has nothing to do with it

Hogwash.

Airbus even tried to make the claim that main structural composite (plastic) wasn't the only way to go with the Al A350 proposal, and airlines didn't bite. They have since had to switch and use them extensively in the wings and fuselage.

Yes, all aircraft use a certain amount of them for certain parts, but the switch to using them for the bulk of the wing and fuselage in the passenger aircraft sector has come due to Boeing and the 787. It was a risk that others weren't willing to take, and now it's become de facto required. In addition, the 787 set a high standard for engine technology rather than a warmed up previous design engine, and the C-Series is going to follow that route (as is Airbus with the A350).

There will be no planes in the future which are new designs that will be accepted into the marketplace unless they use composites in the same way the 787 is and more, nor will new planes be accepted with a warmed over old engine design. That is what I meant by changing the game, and it is what Boeing means as well.

Before the 787, this was not a requirement. The E-Jets used an existing family of engines. The A380 uses plenty of composites (plastic), but not in the same way as the 787. An A380 proposed today would not find buyers if designed in the way it currently is, and even the E-Jet, if designed today, would be under the same constraints as the C-Series...



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineTangowhisky From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 909 posts, RR: 7
Reply 24, posted (7 years 6 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 4242 times:

Quoting Multimark (Reply 22):
You conveniently ignore the succes of BBD's Q series.

What Mrocktor was implying is that while Bombardier will only produce 50 regional jets this year yawn  . Embraer will deliver over three times that amount. yes  with an avergae unit delivery value far greater than Bombardier unit delivery value.

As for the Q Series, Bombardier will produce only about 65. yawn   yawn 

Bottom line: jets are mainstream market where the real money is, turboprops is and will be a niche market.

Quoting Multimark (Reply 22):
What BBD should be concentrating on is developing a replacement for the CRJ900, using the time lag to address all the shortcomings of the E180 (ooops 190).

Do I sense a bit of Canadian envy? The E190 will go through its teething like any new plane. By the way, why touch the CRJ 900? it is advertised to have 100% scheduled completion rate.
 wink 



Only the paranoid survive
25 Lightsaber : ??? Did I miss something? Nothing in the link or news suggests BBD is finally moving forward. Embraer has the advantage due to the order backlog. And
26 CRJ900 : So, if the C-Series is not coming until 2013, will they launch the CRJ900X now instead, just to have something new-ish to offer from next year?
27 Planemaker : No history repeating itself. The Ontario Government bought DH from Boeing to prevent Boeing from selling DH to a European manufacturer. The Ontario G
28 Dougbr2006 : I didnt' mention anything about EMB doing an Airbus style cockpit, my ref was about Honeywell Avionics which is used by BBD, EMB & B. As I understand
29 Post contains images Rikkus67 : "My bad", planemaker, thanks for the clarification...
30 Multimark : Yes, we keeping hearing about how the E-jets are just having "teething" problems. This one baby with a heck of a problem with teething! Saw one stuck
31 CRJ900 : The E195 has 118 seats @ 31 inch pitch or 122 seats @ 29(?)". The seatmap on Bombardier's website of the C130 show 130 seats @ 32" (135 seats if you
32 Post contains images Columba : That is why LH loves the CRJ 900 it is more reliable than the Embraer, has very good economics and they earn money with it...who cares about pax comf
33 Tangowhisky : I hope this is not a stretch to the E-195? If so, I call this a big mistake or as Mrocktor says "Bastard Children". It wont be efficient as its aspec
34 Dougbr2006 : I have heard this also from some people i know that work at EMB.
35 Tangowhisky : I agree that it is not good, but they are no different than Bombardier with the CRJ's. Do you remember how long it took them to fix the flaps and doo
36 Post contains links CRJ900 : An article about the C-Series at www.flightglobal.com, dated Feb 6 2007, ends with stating that the CRJ900X will be launched once "discussions" are do
37 Planemaker : As the FI: Superjet Special Edition points out, in the near term EMB and BBD face little impact from the SSJ due to low production rate and later Wes
38 Mrocktor : Well, strictly speaking the Sukhoi plane killed the CIS market for them. I would not call that a small impact. As far as the rest of the world goes,
39 Post contains images Lightsaber : If true, that's a classic type of problem to have... too much demand. Which makes me wonder what BBD is waiting for? Lightsaber
40 Mrocktor : Well, the same would be true for the CSeries, with the added bonus of EIS together with the 737RS/A320NG on the top end of the seat range. They'd be
41 Post contains images Planemaker : I did say "near term." And it is a small impact in that both EMB and BBD won't be "losing" CIS market share since they haven't made inroads there.
42 TheCol : Same here. To much successful competition elsewhere. Agreed. I hope they stay out if it. I don't think the Conservatives will risk it anyway, especia
43 OOer : Why did the 717 line shut down? If there really is such a big market for the 100-120 seat market...would it not have done good?
44 Tangowhisky : Successful competition? SSJ has to prove itself and to me success will be measured by notable sales outside their home market. E190/E195 are not exac
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