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As Airlines Surge, Pilots Want Share  
User currently offline787KQ From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 547 posts, RR: 0
Posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 3380 times:

From New York Times:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/30/bu...8a75d4&ei=5035&partner=MARKETWATCH

Some is okay, but not too much, unless you own the airline.

The same goes for management.

[Edited 2007-01-31 17:58:11]

78 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21474 posts, RR: 60
Reply 1, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 3371 times:

It's exactly why they got into trouble to begin with. One so so year does not make health, and the natural state of any company shouldn't be to barely make money one year and bleed it the next. But that seems to be what the unions think is healthy.


Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineFlyorski From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 987 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 3362 times:

I think the unions know that the management is taking advantage of the situation, and keeping "normal" employees pay lower than it need be, and taking that money for themselves. This is not unions demanding too much, but managements plans to rob employees of money while stuffing there own pockets being checked.


"None are more hopelessly enslaved, than those who falsly believe they are free" -Goethe
User currently offlineLuv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12090 posts, RR: 49
Reply 3, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 3349 times:

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 1):
It's exactly why they got into trouble to begin with. One so so year does not make health, and the natural state of any company shouldn't be to barely make money one year and bleed it the next. But that seems to be what the unions think is healthy.

 checkmark   checkmark   checkmark   checkmark 



You can cut the irony with a knife
User currently offlineFlydeltasjets From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 210 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 3333 times:

Not sure about anything else, but that pilot on the far right is a great looking guy!

User currently offlineBond007 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 5397 posts, RR: 8
Reply 5, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 3327 times:

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 1):
It's exactly why they got into trouble to begin with. One so so year does not make health, and the natural state of any company shouldn't be to barely make money one year and bleed it the next. But that seems to be what the unions think is healthy.

Another ...  checkmark   checkmark   checkmark   checkmark 


Jimbo



I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
User currently offlinePeterpuck From Canada, joined Jun 2004, 323 posts, RR: 3
Reply 6, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 3268 times:

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 1):
It's exactly why they got into trouble to begin with. One so so year does not make health, and the natural state of any company shouldn't be to barely make money one year and bleed it the next. But that seems to be what the unions think is healthy

If the company is not healthy, then why are the management getting huge payouts? What's good for the goose is good for the gander. BTW I'm not in a union, or even in favor of them. Just pointing this out.


User currently offlineAirFrnt From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 2824 posts, RR: 42
Reply 7, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 3254 times:

There were two mistakes that led to this sorry state of affair.

  • Management bought planes and added capacity without any thought of pricing power.
  • Unions demanded exorbitant payouts, that put pilots well on top of the pay per hour scale, and every one else way above the norms in other industries.


Management hasn't had the chance to screw 1 up again. Unions are already working on 2.


User currently offlineCO767FA From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 532 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 3247 times:

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 7):
Management hasn't had the chance to screw 1 up again. Unions are already working on 2.

What a croc....management continues to screw up on a daily basis...just ask the folks who were stranded on the AA planes last month. Even better, take a look at how Frontier and United did with the storms that hit DEN.

I'm sure middle class america would be extinct by now if the "unions" never existed; instead we are just being slooowly let go.


User currently offlineSsides From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 4059 posts, RR: 21
Reply 9, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 3235 times:

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 1):
It's exactly why they got into trouble to begin with. One so so year does not make health, and the natural state of any company shouldn't be to barely make money one year and bleed it the next. But that seems to be what the unions think is healthy.

Preach on, brother.

Quoting Peterpuck (Reply 6):
If the company is not healthy, then why are the management getting huge payouts? What's good for the goose is good for the gander. BTW I'm not in a union, or even in favor of them. Just pointing this out.

Primarily for retention purposes. As we all (or anyone who has read an economics textbook) know, labor is a commodity that is subject to the laws of supply and demand. As such, wages are dictated by a competitive market, which is generally based on a person's skill and his ability to find work elsewhere.

In today's market for airline pilots, a worker that is not satisfied with his pay has few options. There are not many places where he can go work for better pay. For a head of corporate finance, a COO, or HR director, however, the market is much broader. Don Carty just went to work for Dell. An airline CFO could get lured away by a high-flying company like Google. Thus, while an airline is competing with other financially-distressed companies in the pilot market, in the management market it is competing with companies with much stronger finances.

In addition, managers are often compensated in connection with share prices, because much of their pay is set by a board of directors elected by shareholders. For these employees, their primary duty is to build shareholder value. In the past year and a half, AA's managers have turned AA's finances around to where shareholders now have over $8 billion in equity, compared with $2 billion in 2005. This is primarily due to improvements in the balance sheet and other financial benchmarks.

Rank-and-file employees, on the other hand, are generally compensated in connection with profitability. AA has begun to turn the corner, but its profits are still somewhat thin. I am all for these employees being compensated in line with profits, and I believe this will happen if AA continues a good run of profitable quarters. However, compensating these employees based on share price is more problematic, primarily due to the fact that the sheer number of rank-and-file employees eclipses management by a factor of 10. What the unions should be fighting for, in my view, is restricted stock compensation much like WN employees have. To my knowledge, no legacy carrier union has really fought for this, instead choosing traditional hour-based compensation.



"Lose" is not spelled with two o's!!!!
User currently offlineHalls120 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 3216 times:

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 7):
There were two mistakes that led to this sorry state of affair.

Management bought planes and added capacity without any thought of pricing power.
Unions demanded exorbitant payouts, that put pilots well on top of the pay per hour scale, and every one else way above the norms in other industries.


Management hasn't had the chance to screw 1 up again. Unions are already working on 2.

Let's hope the airline unions are looking long and hard at the sorry state of Detroit. GM and Ford are in extremis, due in large part to union greed.

Quoting CO767FA (Reply 8):
What a croc....management continues to screw up on a daily basis...just ask the folks who were stranded on the AA planes last month. Even better, take a look at how Frontier and United did with the storms that hit DEN.

I'm sure middle class america would be extinct by now if the "unions" never existed; instead we are just being slooowly let go.

Unions were a critical and necessary part of the American economy. Without them, there would indeed be no middle class as we know it. Problem is, unchecked union greed has severely wounded what manufacturing base we have left in this country.


User currently offlineZeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 8864 posts, RR: 75
Reply 11, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 3210 times:

Payout employee pensions and get rid of Chapter 11 in the USA to start with, then we can talk healthy compared to the global scale.


We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
User currently offlineSJCRRPAX From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 3206 times:

FA's really should get more money. But I guess so many people want and can do that job there is no leverage. A while back someone posted a thread on what the RJ pilots get and I was shocked. RJ pilots really should get big pay raises. Airlines take advantage of the RJ pilots because the RJ guys need that as a stepping stone to the big time. If that thread was accurate, you could make more money driving a cab to and from the airport than being a RJ pilot.

User currently offlineRogerThat From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 566 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 3195 times:

Quoting Peterpuck (Reply 6):
why are the management getting huge payouts? What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

The gander got the goods too. IIRC, part of the 2003 wage give backs was options on AMR shares with a strike price of 7.

Quoting Ssides (Reply 9):
For a head of corporate finance, a COO, or HR director, however, the market is much broader.

IIRC, former AMR exec James Beer left for Symantec.

All you union hard liners need to remember that stock prices are forward looking. If the price of oil goes up or there's a quarter or two below expectations, those soaring stock prices will come crashing back down.


User currently offlineEvilForce From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 3184 times:

And stories like this make me realize why I would never own an airline. They haven't even strung together ONE decent year yet and the unions are already wanting more money? Good grief! Repair the bottom lines first then start working on wages.

It'll be interesting to see the Delta cheerleaders when the bonuses for management are announced post bankruptcy exit.


User currently offlineAirFrnt From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 2824 posts, RR: 42
Reply 15, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 3154 times:

Quoting CO767FA (Reply 8):

What a croc....management continues to screw up on a daily basis...just ask the folks who were stranded on the AA planes last month. Even better, take a look at how Frontier and United did with the storms that hit DEN.

What a absurd statement. I am really curious how you think management in DEN could control the weather in DEN. DEN in one month got more snow then in any of the previous five winters (for the record winter here == when it snows usually in Colorado).

Quoting CO767FA (Reply 8):

I'm sure middle class america would be extinct by now if the "unions" never existed; instead we are just being slooowly let go.

Which is why statistics show that using your own correlation - unions started declining in the 80s - that far more people are in the upper class in America, and far less (20% less) are in lower, and 5% less are in the middle class. In other words, the middle class is smaller, but so is the lower, and it's all gone to the upper.

The word extinct is correct insofar as the legacies are concerned. The legacies in the US are dinosaurs. They are protected, coddled, and placated. They feed a army of special interest. And overall, not a single one of them have turned a profit over the last 40 years. The LCC's have them beat on service, and on price, and on reliability. Unless something drastic changes, the second the US ownership laws go away, or the LCCs start flying internationally, is the moment the legacies die.

Bob Crandall is right. Airlines are the last place anyone should ever invest in.

Your facts are simply wrong, because they are nothing more then emotion. Let go of your hatred, realize that just like in the car business, companies without unions are more competitive and provide a better working environment, and usually better pay.

Or realize that there are places where wearing a union sticker doesn't mean "f*ck the company" at every turn.


User currently offlineFlydeltasjets From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 210 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 3126 times:

All good points, but the most important one remains...

That pilot on the right is extrodinarily good-looking!


User currently offlineSsides From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 4059 posts, RR: 21
Reply 17, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 3126 times:

Quoting RogerThat (Reply 13):
The gander got the goods too. IIRC, part of the 2003 wage give backs was options on AMR shares with a strike price of 7.

AMR closed at $37.05 today. If you are correct about the option grants, and if your average pilot got 1,000 shares, they'd be could cash in a net of $30K. Not executive pay, but not a bad return over three years, either.

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 15):
Your facts are simply wrong, because they are nothing more then emotion. Let go of your hatred, realize that just like in the car business, companies without unions are more competitive and provide a better working environment, and usually better pay.

Or realize that there are places where wearing a union sticker doesn't mean "f*ck the company" at every turn.

Excellent point. Over time, the goal of (many, not all) unions transformed into protecting and assisting workers to squeezing every last piece of forward cash flow from the employer. Case in point: UAW bargaining over health benefits. A few years ago, as their contract was being renegotiated, the slogan was "Co-pay? No way!" While companies were bleeding cash and health care costs were skyrocketing, the unions wouldn't even consider sharing a slice of that burden. Meanwhile, most employees elsewhere were paying a modest $15-$30 co-payment for prescriptions and doctor visits. And people wonder why manufacturing is dying out in the US ...



"Lose" is not spelled with two o's!!!!
User currently offlineFlydeltasjets From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 210 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 3083 times:

My God that guy is hot!

User currently offlineEvilForce From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 3077 times:

Quoting Flydeltasjets (Reply 16):
That pilot on the right is extrodinarily good-looking!

 Big grin


User currently offlineRwSEA From Netherlands, joined Jan 2005, 3077 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 3070 times:

Quoting Peterpuck (Reply 6):
the company is not healthy, then why are the management getting huge payouts? What's good for the goose is good for the gander. BTW I'm not in a union, or even in favor of them. Just pointing this out.

Management is worth more in the marketplace than a pilot, FA, or mechanic. That's just the way it is.

Any company, airlines included, must pay management a competitive wage if they want to keep the talent.


User currently offlineFlydeltasjets From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 210 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 3063 times:

Finally someone agreed!

(Just trying to blow my own horn! It's the first time I've been in any paper since the police blotter of my hometown weekly in high school!)


User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21474 posts, RR: 60
Reply 22, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 3051 times:

Quoting Peterpuck (Reply 6):
If the company is not healthy, then why are the management getting huge payouts? What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

If you are a new manager to a company (as many of these people are, relatively speaking, as they didn't cause the mess...) and you go from losing $1billion when you came on to earning $100 million, that's a turn around of $1.1 billion. Is there no reward for accomplishing something like that?

Of course, a lot of it has to do with oil prices, but some of it is directly related to getting the right kind of cuts in costs across the board, from routes to staff to redundancy.

Yet, the unions see the profit as proof that the cuts weren't necessary. The cuts are the only reason the profits exist!!!!

I work in a union business, and when people are working, they make TOO MUCH, which means that a lot of people don't get to work at all, and a lot of our jobs go to foreign countries where pay is lower. If unions were to understand that lowering the payscale keeps more people employed, this wouldn't happen. So I have little faith in the union managers being somehow smarter than the company managers. I see too many people out of work due to union minimums and rules being too expensive...



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineThePinnacleKid From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 724 posts, RR: 8
Reply 23, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 3004 times:

Quoting Flydeltasjets (Reply 21):
Finally someone agreed!

(Just trying to blow my own horn! It's the first time I've been in any paper since the police blotter of my hometown weekly in high school!)

And you got it in the uniform... gotta love it! I only get uniform pics of me by mom....



To most of the rest of you...... you make some interesting points...

[Edited 2007-02-01 01:58:16]


"Sonny, did we land? or were we shot down?"
User currently offlinePeterPuck From Canada, joined Jun 2004, 323 posts, RR: 3
Reply 24, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 2964 times:

How much talent does it take to use chapter 11.

25 CO767FA : I guess that would be the ol' Boy Scout motto: Be Prepared! Wrong...Union membership peaked in the 50's, when 30% of the US working population belong
26 Detroitflyer : r u saying that, that person is you up there
27 Tommytoyz : Exactly. The pilots have no understanding of financial matters when it comes to a large enterprise. None of the airlines are even close to earning a
28 DeltaGuy : Bottom line, the pilots and other labor groups sacrificed alot to get these companies back on their feet. It's time to get their pay back. Having to t
29 Post contains links AirFrnt : I don't know why people don't get it. but here it is. That pay scale was not sustainable. Period. As Newhouse mentions in his most recent book, going
30 Tommytoyz : Other labor groups outside the Pilots I can agree with to some extent. But a pilot earning over 300k a year plus benefits plus a defined benefit reti
31 Post contains images IH8B6 : Do we really need to get this started again? You are a Flight Attendant and you can't understand this situation taking place? (Yes or No question, no
32 ThePinnacleKid : I have to be honest... I find a lot of statements in this thread insulting. What gives any of you the right to degrade professionals and the salary's
33 Tommytoyz : I have only judged the business understanding of the pilot's in aggregate as represented by their unions' actions and statements over the years. That
34 PITrules : Sorry, pilots were not responsible for recession, 911, and overcapacity. Exactly. Give the pilots something back for their contributions to profitabi
35 Tommytoyz : Good point. So it matters what the economic viability of the airline is. If it's low, you can't expect pilot pay the same those at UPS or FEDEX. Not
36 Luv2fly : This quote always kills me, you chose not to live in the city you are based out of and then whine about it?
37 PeterPuck : Sometimes pilots have established lives in one place and get a new job in another. Like he said it's not like working in a bank. Most pilots don't wh
38 Luv2fly : Buddy I get it more then you'll ever know! Also if you read his post he is not a pilot, currently he is a FA, not that it matters. If you chose to li
39 ThePinnacleKid : Thank you! Pitrules, Thank you too! Luv2fly, I never complained about my commute, matter of fact, I love the opportunity to be able to NOT live where
40 ThePinnacleKid : Ummm... you might want to edit that Luv2fly... I have never been a Flight Attendant... I have been a ramper... a Customer Service Agent... and I am c
41 Luv2fly : Sorry my bad for that. For the record I do think you for one get the whole picture and I hope you did not feel like I was picking on you.
42 XJET : PinnacleKid, Kudos! I couldn't have had that conversation. I have been sitting here sweating bullets listening to what is being said about our profess
43 CO767FA : And that goes "ditto" for the flight attendants. Most of the aviation "enthusiasts" posting just don't get it (now, maybe a few will understand).
44 Jetdeltamsy : AA earned $200+ million this year. That sounds great after the past five years, but it hardly enough to fund fleet replacement of the MD80's. AA is on
45 AirFrnt : Not at all. I do massive consulting engagements around the world. I transit all the time, I am on call all the time. I get paid for none of that. Als
46 ThePinnacleKid : XJET... thanks man... I 'preciate it... I'm H-town based as of the new March base advancements... maybe I'll see ya sometime... feel free to direct ms
47 PITrules : And I assume the pay you make when you actually are at work more than adequately compensates for the transit time. Same idea with pilots. Excessive p
48 EvilForce : The industry has lost $35 BILLION since 9/11. The airlines need to start recouping a few billion BEFORE any talk of raises for crying out loud.
49 AirFrnt : Economists disagree with you. Since airlines can't exactly change the cost of fuel when they go into chapter 11, can't change the overall economic mo
50 RogerThat : This true reality may also be the reason why employee wages won't be going up. Capacity is being added by the low-cost producers. When the current cr
51 Valcory : PinnacleKid thanks for telling it like it is
52 CO767FA : Does that only apply to employees that don't hold a key to the executive wash room? It isn't just in the airline industry that executive pay is out o
53 PITrules : So pilots are the main reason for the airlines lost 35 billion over the past 5 years? Show me one "economist" who believes that. Did I say things get
54 AirFrnt : Go re-read your own statement (major) and mine (one of). From Wikipedia: Nonetheless, captains at major airlines in the US have an average salary of
55 AirFrnt : You work in a system where seniority rather then skill matters. Personally, I wouldn't do that for all the Gold in Ft. Knox. But you are also 23 year
56 PITrules : Which is why there are negotiations, to come to an agreement to meet somewhere in the middle. This would be a raise during good times, and concession
57 Tommytoyz : This is a textbook example of not understanding basic economics. The point is REDUCING pay not INCREASING pay. Either that of productivity has to ris
58 PITrules : OK - you are quoting my reply to someone else where I clearly state the goal is not to increase pay during hard times (same as your point), then clai
59 ThePinnacleKid : I'm not complaining about my pay or the seniority system and pay based on skills is pretty irrelevant... if you are sitting up front you have the ski
60 Tommytoyz : Then the Boom/Bust cysles in that company will continue. AirFrnt was justifying that action in pay reduction and you counter that you're not advocati
61 Apodino : You know I have been thinking long and hard about this as a regional airline employee myself. The biggest flaw with the seniority system is it makes i
62 AirFrnt : Why? Why not just say "these are the pay scales" and adjust it to inflation and leave it at that? Why must you demand more money in the up cycles (wh
63 PITrules : Yes, it will. The topic I initially complained about is the notion that pilot pay is one of the largest reasons the airline industry has been in the
64 AirFrnt : That's part of the problems with unions. They can only exist when people are afraid of management. Therefore the first rule of a union is to make man
65 HPAEAA : Prove it, honestly with the rash of station closings and carriers handing operations to express carriers suggests that wages are still somewhat infla
66 RogerThat : I'm someone who is riding in the back of your plane more than I want to be. And I'm all for pilots, mechanics and the other skilled workers making as
67 HPAEAA : You may recall from the annual calls for 2006, A few carrier's are reporting charges due to the losses on hedging.... it's exactly that.. a bet... se
68 Post contains links RogerThat : I hadn't heard that before. But a happy ending for Don Carty. Just heard he is Dell's new CFO. http://www.dell.com/content/topics/g...graphies/en/ind
69 Style : Tommytoyz ThePinnacleKid Both of you made great points but I do have to agree with Tommytoyz on this one. $300 an hr is just not realistic and viable
70 Style : Up until here I agreed with you but that comment totally changed my view on your statements. Obviously if you think agents have it good by 'just ship
71 ThePinnacleKid : They are looked down upon all the time... from the general public to their own peers at times.. with jokes etc.. or for that matter.. the pure disres
72 ThePinnacleKid : For all of you who want to try and discuss pilot hourly pay figures.. it isn't cut and dry... Hourly pay is most of the time based on BLOCK to BLOCK..
73 HPAEAA : Mines doing just fine, no problems here... don't try and exempt yourself from that catagory..
74 Post contains images XJET : This is what I don't understand.... How is it that everyone wants to blame airline hardtimes on the pilot pay??!?! It has so little to do with anythi
75 ThePinnacleKid : I will outright apologize if I somehow insulted anyone in this discussion, as HPAEAA claims I have. I merely was trying to defend my chosen profession
76 Tugger : Someone else pointed it out, it isn't really pay we are talking about it is the work being done for the level of pay earned. Again as noted earlier in
77 HPAEAA : Fair enough, it's one of those topics that can be highly charged back and forth... bttm line, the industry is being redefined... it can be painful fo
78 Tommytoyz : I certainly am not insulted if anyone including yourself disagrees with me. If I felt insulted it would be my fault and my problem - that I've learne
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