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Midwest Expansion: Would The E190 Work?  
User currently offlineCactus742 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 237 posts, RR: 0
Posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 3012 times:

When Midwest expands, it seems like the 6-abreast planes may not be economical enough for signature service. How would an E190 in signature service three-abreast suit Midwest's needs?


Do not take life too seriously. You will never get out of it alive.
32 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineEvilForce From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 2976 times:

6 abreast can easily be made 5 abreast, giving each remaining 5 seats an additional 3 1/2" in width. A 20 1/2" seat seems ok by me.

User currently offlineJBo From Sweden, joined Jan 2005, 2316 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 2966 times:

Chances are when Midwest orders new a/c they will not be a single-cabin arrangement. The replacement aircraft will likely feature a mix of signature and saver-style seating (but probably all leather, as will be done to the MD80 fleet).

That is, unless they figure they can make a decent profit on a fully-signature 737 or A320, but I doubt that'd work out.



I'd take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance any day.
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22871 posts, RR: 20
Reply 3, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 2949 times:

Quoting Cactus742 (Thread starter):
How would an E190 in signature service three-abreast suit Midwest's needs?

The 170 family actually offer wider seats than most other aircraft (typically 18.5 inches). They could just go to that for Signature and leave it at 4-abreast. 3 abreast would probably not be very economical.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineMidex717 From United States of America, joined May 2002, 132 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 2801 times:

Midwest Airlines is looking at either the B737-800 or the A320. I hope its the B737-800.

User currently offlineSideflare75 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 613 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 2703 times:

Quoting Cactus742 (Thread starter):
When Midwest expands, it seems like the 6-abreast planes may not be economical enough for signature service. How would an E190 in signature service three-abreast suit Midwest's needs?

Like it was already posted if and when Midwest buys new planes for expansion and MD-80 replacement it will be 320s or 737-800s. They want a plane to carry more people farther. It will not be used for signature service except for probably a few rows in front. The rest will be 3X3 with maybe a little more leg room or something like that.


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22871 posts, RR: 20
Reply 6, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 2683 times:

The 320 and 73G families are not a suitable 712 replacement. When those leave the fleet, they'll have to replace them with something E-Jet sized.


I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineSideflare75 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 613 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 2677 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 6):
The 320 and 73G families are not a suitable 712 replacement. When those leave the fleet, they'll have to replace them with something E-Jet sized.

That is true but the first one turns 4 this month. That will be a long way off. Right now the focus is on MD-80 replacements.


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22871 posts, RR: 20
Reply 8, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 2657 times:

Quoting Sideflare75 (Reply 7):

That is true but the first one turns 4 this month. That will be a long way off. Right now the focus is on MD-80 replacements.

Certainly, but it's not inconceivable that they'll also want some growth in the ~90 seat size range.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineSideflare75 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 613 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 2632 times:

Yes some day they will need to replace the 717 but I'm sure that is not even being looked at right now. Who even knows what planes will be available in 10-15 years when they get rid of them. Might be something brand new to choose from.

User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22871 posts, RR: 20
Reply 10, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 2625 times:

Quoting Sideflare75 (Reply 9):
Yes some day they will need to replace the 717 but I'm sure that is not even being looked at right now. Who even knows what planes will be available in 10-15 years when they get rid of them. Might be something brand new to choose from.

Why do you assume that they won't want any more 90 seaters until the 712s leave the fleet?



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineSideflare75 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 613 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 2604 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 10):
Why do you assume that they won't want any more 90 seaters until the 712s leave the fleet?

The CEO has stated that whatever new aircraft we buy will be to replace the -80's and will be our growth airplane going forward. His words not mine. He has never said anything about new or additional 90 seaters.

Getting new airplanes into the fleet is an extremely expensive undertaking when you consider all that goes into it. We are still spending money buying spares for the 717s and we've had them for four years now. YX will be busy integrating the 737/320's into the fleet for the foreseeable future.


User currently offlineJBo From Sweden, joined Jan 2005, 2316 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 2538 times:

For an airline of Midwest's size, 25 717s is plenty for that size of aircraft for now.

Keeping in mind that those 717s are direct descendants of the DC-9, they could very well be in the air 35 years from now.



I'd take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance any day.
User currently offlineDeltaDAWG From United States of America, joined May 2006, 776 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2463 times:

Quoting JBo (Reply 12):
For an airline of Midwest's size, 25 717s is plenty for that size of aircraft for now.

Yes it is, except when you have to convince your stockholders that growth and expansiopn is key to stock value and that the company is going to add new cities and route expansion. Then you have to have new aircraft - and since there is no more 712's they will have to bring in a new a/c and totally change their fleet makeup over the next 5-10 years.

I could see a E190/195 for Signature Service (if it stays alive) and 737/8 or 319/20 for everything else. All this is dependant upon what happens with FL.

Just my .02



GO Dawgs, Sic' em, woof woof woof
User currently offlineTedEx From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 149 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2462 times:

Quoting Cactus742 (Thread starter):
How would an E190 in signature service three-abreast suit Midwest's needs?

Are the E-jets even available in three abreast seating? These planes are great in 2x2 and probably wouldn't need much extra, maybe just elimimate a row and give a little extra pitch throughout the cabin.. maybe even an E195? B6 runs E190s with 32 or 33 inches of pitch. Remove a row or two and have a little more.

I think the E-series would look great in YX colors.


User currently offlineMke717spotter From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 2453 posts, RR: 5
Reply 15, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2453 times:

Nothing to big, but yesterday YX announced RSW is going year round from Seasonal and also some enhancement to SFO.


Will you watch the Cleveland Browns and the Detroit Lions on Sunday? Only if coach Eric Mangini resigned after a loss.
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22871 posts, RR: 20
Reply 16, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 2376 times:

Quoting TedEx (Reply 14):
Are the E-jets even available in three abreast seating?

UA ExPlus has 2 rows of 3-abreast F...



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineSideflare75 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 613 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 2354 times:

Remember that the CRJ's are going to take the place of some 717's on certain routes so that will free them up for some expansion. Not saying that is the best choice but it certainly is the cheapest and fastest way for YX to add any new aircraft.

User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22871 posts, RR: 20
Reply 18, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 2300 times:

Quoting JBo (Reply 12):
Keeping in mind that those 717s are direct descendants of the DC-9, they could very well be in the air 35 years from now.

Interestingly, though, this may be an area in which the fates of FL and YX are intertwined (even without the merger). Though YX's 717s are pretty low-cycle compared to the NW -9s (which fly routes like MBS-DTW and MEM-BNA), I think once either FL or YX gets rid of the 717, it may not be economical for the other to hang on to them. Just speculation on my part, but it will be interesting to see how it plays out down the road.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlinePavlovsDog From Norway, joined Sep 2005, 657 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 2282 times:

Although highly unlikely the Sukhoi Superjet 100 series is 5-abreast. I think the sizes are 60, 75 and 95 seaters. I imagine it might be possible that a second wing will be developed and 115 and 135 seaters could come to fruition. One single aircraft family could conceivably meet all of Midwest's current needs. Range is plenty for them too.

I expect they are relatively inexpensive to purchase since they're very eager to get a Western customer. Support and reliablity are huge question marks.


User currently offlineDeltaDAWG From United States of America, joined May 2006, 776 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 2266 times:

Quoting PavlovsDog (Reply 19):
Although highly unlikely the Sukhoi Superjet 100 series is 5-abreast. I think the sizes are 60, 75 and 95 seaters. I imagine it might be possible that a second wing will be developed and 115 and 135 seaters could come to fruition. One single aircraft family could conceivably meet all of Midwest's current needs. Range is plenty for them too.

I expect they are relatively inexpensive to purchase since they're very eager to get a Western customer. Support and reliablity are huge question marks.

From what I have seen of the Sukhoi 100 it seems that they either bought or stole the plans to the Dornier 728 program. Prototype looks to be identical to the original 728. They would have to find a partner in the west to support it to have any chance of selling any.



GO Dawgs, Sic' em, woof woof woof
User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 968 posts, RR: 51
Reply 21, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 2256 times:

Quoting DeltaDAWG (Reply 20):
Prototype looks to be identical to the original 728.

And that is conclusive evidence of corporate espionage?

Quoting DeltaDAWG (Reply 20):
They would have to find a partner in the west to support it to have any chance of selling any.

Sukhoi has done exactly that. Here's a hint who they have partnered with:

it starts with a "B" and ends with "-OEING."


User currently offlineDeltaDAWG From United States of America, joined May 2006, 776 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 2240 times:

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 21):
And that is conclusive evidence of corporate espionage?

As I said, "either bought or stole"

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 21):
Sukhoi has done exactly that. Here's a hint who they have partnered with:

it starts with a "B" and ends with "-OEING."

A partner Boeing has not made itself! It has been a consultant on the design but not a partner, a consultant - someone who is paid for advise! A partner is someone that has a vested interest and supports a product via business interest. Show me where Boeing has signed on to support the sales and maintenance effort behind it - oh, that's right, they haven't! Hmmm!



GO Dawgs, Sic' em, woof woof woof
User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 968 posts, RR: 51
Reply 23, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 2179 times:

Quoting DeltaDAWG (Reply 22):
As I said, "either bought or stole"

Well, we know that Sukhoi did not buy the rights to the FD.728 so that only leaves your forgone conclusion that Sukhoi stole the design...

Quoting DeltaDAWG (Reply 22):
A partner Boeing has not made itself!

Says Yoda?

Quoting DeltaDAWG (Reply 22):
Show me where Boeing has signed on to support the sales and maintenance effort behind it - oh, that's right, they haven't! Hmmm!

Wow, you really couldn't have picked any better words:

Boeing president for Russia Sergei Kravchenko says the US manufacturer will support the RRJ project using its international sales and support network, and help with certification to US Federal Aviation Administration and European Joint Aviation Authorities standards.

RRJ project takes shape as Sukhoi commits funding


User currently offlineSNATH From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 3238 posts, RR: 22
Reply 24, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 2163 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 3):
The 170 family actually offer wider seats than most other aircraft (typically 18.5 inches). They could just go to that for Signature and leave it at 4-abreast.

Well, I've only seen pictures of their cabin but Midwest seem to have some extra space between the seats for a drinks table or something like that. They would not be able to keep that in the E-jets with a 4-abreast config I don't think...

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 16):
UA ExPlus has 2 rows of 3-abreast F...

AC's E-jets have 3 rows of 3-abreast F too.


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Quoting PavlovsDog (Reply 19):
Although highly unlikely the Sukhoi Superjet 100 series is 5-abreast.

C-series too!

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 23):
Says Yoda?

 rotfl 

Tony



Nikon: we don't want more pixels, we want better pixels.
25 Jmc1975 : Midwest needs to do away with the Saver Service and go back to their roots of 2x2 Signature service exclusively. It's what made Midwest stand out from
26 PavlovsDog : And who did the Russians steal the Sputnik design from? I'm sorry the the Russians are quite capable engineers. It is possible that they "stole" the
27 Sideflare75 : As much as we would all love that it will never happen. You can not make any money flying 116 people to LAS or MCO on an MD-80. Throw in the extra 31
28 Post contains images DfwRevolution : The Germans ??
29 Post contains images Jmc1975 : That's the primary reason an AirTran/Midwest merger makes so much sense. Besides, what kind of airline sees a successful future by acquiring just a c
30 Post contains links and images Cubsrule : This picture gives you a pretty good idea View Large View MediumPhoto © Sam Chui There's more space than in a traditional Y seat but not the ful
31 Post contains images Sideflare75 : Allegiant??? Everyone knows by now that the 2 new -88's are not a long term thing but are only being obtained to add some much needed longer haul cap
32 Tedex : My mistake, Cactus742 said three abreast and for some reason I was thinking five abreast. :/ I've flown on many E170s with three abreast F seats.
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