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Why So Few European Destinations From LAX?  
User currently offlineJRDC930 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (7 years 7 months 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 7983 times:

Just wondering why for a city of its size LAX has a relatively small number of NON-Stop European destinations? I know the hub system definitely has a role in this but what about international carriers. The only cities I can think of that get non stop service from LAX in Europe are:
AMS
PAR
LON
FRA
Ithink Munich
DUS, again I'm not sure
Dublin
Moscow
ZRH
I think thats it for nonstop service. is there no demand for non stop travel to from other parts of Europe from LAX?
Thanks for any info on this. I personally would like to see more service, simply because its my home airport.

64 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAvianca From Venezuela, joined Jan 2005, 5925 posts, RR: 40
Reply 1, posted (7 years 7 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 7870 times:

Quoting JRDC930 (Thread starter):
AMS
PAR
LON
FRA
Ithink Munich
DUS, again I'm not sure
Dublin
Moscow
ZRH

some are even double-daily + all the conections.... I think it is not too bad



Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7578 posts, RR: 25
Reply 2, posted (7 years 7 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 7843 times:

The list of European destinations look good for LAX, thats more destinations than most have. My beef is why dont US based airlines fly more to Asia? LAX is very underserved to China.


Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently offlineFlyDreamliner From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2759 posts, RR: 15
Reply 3, posted (7 years 7 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 7815 times:

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 2):
The list of European destinations look good for LAX, thats more destinations than most have. My beef is why dont US based airlines fly more to Asia? LAX is very underserved to China.

China and the US only offer so many authorizations to fly to China. It's a restricted market with new openings only coming every so many years. This last one was for a UA IAD-PEK.

No one given US airline has a very strong presence in LAX.... perhaps if/when DL gets all moved in, they'll set up shop on transpacific routes.



"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
User currently offlineB742 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2005, 3767 posts, RR: 19
Reply 4, posted (7 years 7 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 7787 times:

Europe-LAX/SFO has been a very hard market for some airlines. It is a difficult market to capture. There has been miserable failures on some routes.

European Flights at LAX now include:
Aer Lingus - Dublin
Aeroflot - Moscow SVO
Air France - Paris CDG
Air India - Frankfurt
Air New Zealand - London Heathrow
Air Tahiti Nui - Paris CDG
American Airlines - London Heathrow
British Airways - London Heathrow
KLM - Amsterdam
LTU - Düsseldorf
Lufthansa - Munich and Frankfurt
Swiss - Zurich
United Airlines - London Heathrow
Virgin Atlantic - London Heathrow

As you can see from the above list, there are not many cities offered directly from LAX.

There are very few secondary markets such as MAN that do not support regular West Coast flights!

Rob!  wave 


User currently offlineAirWillie6475 From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 2448 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (7 years 7 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 7740 times:

Simple, no demand. LA is mostly a South American hub, and to a lesser extent an Asian hub. Frankfurt/London/Paris is covered anyways, that's all you need for Europe. However, we do need Alitalia. Italy and Southern Europe is very popular for LA, don't know why they haven't made a route already.

User currently offlinePlanesarecool From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2001, 4121 posts, RR: 11
Reply 6, posted (7 years 7 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 7703 times:

Also remember that LAX-Europe is a very long sector and takes at least two aircraft to operate a daily rotation. In most cases, the aircraft can be utilised on shorter routes which make just as much or more money.

User currently offlineLHRBFSTrident From UK - Northern Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 655 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (7 years 7 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 7671 times:

SK dumped CPH-LAX about 10 years ago, and AZ ditched MXP-LAX just a few years back. Not sure how viable a Scandinavian link would be, but an Italy link would be good (although AZ doesn't seem to be in a position to do anything right now)

There have been rumours of IB MAD-LAX now since before 9/11, and then again more recently - in addition to talk of Air Madrid on the same route (obviously that won't happen now!)

The big glaring hole in the European offering from LAX from my perspective is MAN - if Vegas can support BD from MAN, then so can LAX!

and looking at the list, I can't really think of additional EU destinations that would support service...?



Next up: LAX-LHR NZ002 Y SkyCouch! LHR-LAX NZ001 Y
User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7578 posts, RR: 25
Reply 8, posted (7 years 7 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 7662 times:

Quoting AirWillie6475 (Reply 5):
Simple, no demand. LA is mostly a South American hub, and to a lesser extent an Asian hub. Frankfurt/London/Paris is covered anyways, that's all you need for Europe.

Thats a joke right??? LAX is Americas primary gateway to Asia. On the other side of things, LAX has very little air traffic to South America. There is lots of demand from LAX-Europe. How else would be able to support secondary routes like SVO, DUB, and DUS??? Most flights from LAX-LHR/CDG/FRA are multiple flights daily. Out of curiosity, where did your assesment of LAX's position in reguards to South America and Asia come from???



Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently offlineEI321 From Iraq, joined Jul 2009, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (7 years 7 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 7658 times:

Im surpeised at this. I thought Iberia, Alitalia, SAS, Finnair, TAP, Austrian, etc would all fly to LAX!

User currently offlineUA772IAD From Australia, joined Jul 2004, 1730 posts, RR: 3
Reply 10, posted (7 years 7 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 7618 times:

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 3):
No one given US airline has a very strong presence in LAX.... perhaps if/when DL gets all moved in, they'll set up shop on transpacific routes.

I disagree. UA has 220+ daily flights out of LAX... given that most of them are domestic. AA also has a pretty big presence there as well. International service though, you are correct.


User currently offlineWN230 From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 341 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (7 years 7 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 7599 times:

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 8):
LAX is Americas primary gateway to Asia.

I thought SFO was America's primary gateway to Asia, no?

WN230



Judas Priest North American tour in '08 . . . cannot wait!!!
User currently offlineLaxintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25173 posts, RR: 48
Reply 12, posted (7 years 7 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 7590 times:

Quoting AirWillie6475 (Reply 5):
LA is mostly a South American hub

Have you gotten LA and Miami confused?

There is almost no South America flying from LAX. Outside of daily LAN flights, the only other South America flying is a mere 3x per week Avianca service.


As far as service to Europe, as general rule US West Coast - Europe services are simply hard to operate profitably due to the distance involved in relation to fares offered. While LA is a huge market (for instance LAX-LHR is 10x daily in the summer), outside of European hubs its hard to sustain service.

LAX on the other hand is by far the largest US gateway to Asia both passenger wise and in cargo.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineSJCRRPAX From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (7 years 7 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 7584 times:

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 8):
Quoting AirWillie6475 (Reply 5):
Simple, no demand. LA is mostly a South American hub, and to a lesser extent an Asian hub. Frankfurt/London/Paris is covered anyways, that's all you need for Europe.

Thats a joke right??? LAX is Americas primary gateway to Asia. On the other side of things, LAX has very little air traffic to South America. There is lots of demand from LAX-Europe. How else would be able to support secondary routes like SVO, DUB, and DUS??? Most flights from LAX-LHR/CDG/FRA are multiple flights daily. Out of curiosity, where did your assesment of LAX's position in reguards to South America and Asia come from???

Well, if you consider Mexico as South America (well that's a stretch, maybe he meant Latin America), than I think he is correct. THe top two international carriers at LAX according to the LAX website are Mexicana and Alaska with about 1.2 million pax's each. There is no Asian Carrier in the top 10 list, and the American Carriers for the most part are domestic in the top 10 list.


User currently offlineSKY1 From Spain, joined Apr 2006, 879 posts, RR: 4
Reply 14, posted (7 years 7 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 7516 times:

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 8):
LAX is Americas primary gateway to Asia.

I agree with you, LAXdude, ...and I'm very surprised some people can ignore this platitude.

From Europe to LAX I think there are enough services, also including bargains or at least non-expensives offers to fly US West Coast.

Quoting SJCRRPAX (Reply 13):
Well, if you consider Mexico as South America

Sorry, but Mexico is not South America.



Time flies! Enjoy life!
User currently offlineAirWillie6475 From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 2448 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (7 years 7 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 7506 times:

Quoting SJCRRPAX (Reply 13):
well that's a stretch, maybe he meant Latin America)

Ok, lets' just say it MEXICO!


User currently offlineKL662 From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 121 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (7 years 7 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 7465 times:

Quoting AirWillie6475 (Reply 5):
LA is mostly a South American hub...

Really? AFAIK, there's not too much that goes south of Central America. LAN to Peru... Is there anything to Brazil these days?

I was amazed at how hard it was to get down to Argentina from LAX after DL cancelled the LAX-ATL portion of my journey a couple of years ago. Ultimately had to take CM down through PTY -- best I could do short of waiting 24 hours.

(Heh -- sorry. My reply was a little late.)

[Edited 2007-02-02 02:03:21]

User currently offlinePanAm747 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4242 posts, RR: 8
Reply 17, posted (7 years 7 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 7410 times:

Quote:
Also remember that LAX-Europe is a very long sector and takes at least two aircraft to operate a daily rotation. In most cases, the aircraft can be utilised on shorter routes which make just as much or more money.

 checkmark 

And to add to that, one must consider the value of "alliances". Austrian, for example, finds it uneconomical at this time to fly to LAX; however, with an alliance those same passengers can continue to earn miles with Austrian, United, Lufthansa, or whatever partner airline they connect with. Not a non-stop, but the rewards are there for the hassle of connecting.

The big three in Europe right now are BA, LH, and AF. All three are well connected to LAX, and a large list of connections is possible via London, Paris, and Frankfurt/Munich. All airlines have to focus on what routes earn them money, and for smaller carriers, the long-distance routes of the past just don't make as much economic sense as they might have.



Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7578 posts, RR: 25
Reply 18, posted (7 years 7 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 7390 times:

Quoting WN230 (Reply 11):
I thought SFO was America's primary gateway to Asia, no?

For total flights and passenger to Asia, LAX is way above SFO. However as far as the most transpacific traffic by one carrier, the SFO is the clear winner (with UA). But LAX has the most Asian airlines of any airport in the country, has the most flights to Asia of any airport in the country, and carries the most passengers to Asia of any airport in the country. Also I believe LAX has the most Asian O&D of any airport in the country.



Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently offlineJRDC930 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (7 years 7 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 7309 times:

Thanks For the info, i guess LAX does have a fairly decent amount of destinations. I just feel as some say,that areas like Spain, and Italy could also support some flights. As an airplane spotter it would be cool to see more European liveries, but from a business sense i guess more non stops to LAX just doesn't make sense. I for one hate connections (especialy at ATL or LHR) for the most part, but thats life i suppose. Never really though about the distance factor... thought that was more of an issue for other areas. I ll keep dreaming though... may be one day we'll pick up another european carrier.

User currently offlineBrightCedars From Belgium, joined Nov 2004, 1288 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (7 years 7 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 7060 times:

I also believe it has to do with these two factors:

1. It ties up more than 24 hours for a rotation.
2. Until 10 years ago most aircraft capable of covering the distance nonstop were oversized for secondary markets.

Although today's offer on the LA-Europe market clearly points to A380, smaller efficient jets such as the 787-8 and the A350-800 may help split the offering into point-to-point services where MXP-LAX, VIE-LAX, BRU-LAX, CPH-LAX, MAD-LAX and others at 3/week or more become sustainable.

It all points to either Airbus' strategy (hub) or Boeing's (point-to-point). What is happening today with the 757 accross the Atlantic could be an indication of what will happen with other aircraft and other markets at one point.



I want the European Union flag on airliners.net!
User currently offlineKevin777 From Denmark, joined Sep 2006, 1165 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (7 years 7 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 7060 times:

Quoting Avianca (Reply 1):
some are even double-daily + all the conections.... I think it is not too bad

I don't think it's too bad either - also, given that LAX-Europe is such a long distance, you also have to use the big birds; hence no eg. CO-757 flights etc., that often makes a European route viable even if to a less important city. As someone else noted, you also have to dedicate more capacity to LAX than to, say, NYC, because of the distance, and in order not to have too thin frequencies you have to fly from bigger markets that can support the whole thing.

I think another reason is that LAX is (apart from SAN and Hawaii!) at the corner furthest away from Europe; hence, flights to/from Europe have to heavily rely on LAX as the final destination/origin. Without much transfer at LAX, this of course reduces the amount of pax you can fill in a plane bound for LAX, and hence it reduces viability of Europe-LAX routes to Europe.

Kevin777  Smile



"I was waiting for you at DFW, but you must have been in LUV" CPH-HAM-CPH CR9
User currently offlineGetdonnie From Bermuda, joined May 2006, 50 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (7 years 7 months 23 hours ago) and read 6390 times:

If you consider LAX the gateway to Asia and JFK the gateway to Europe, comparatively speaking, you may have more destinations served in Europe from LAX than Asian destinations served from JFK. In terms of Southern Europe how about LAX - BCN or LAX-Nice?

Alitalia did have Rome-LAX with the MD 11 at one time I guess no more unless they have plans to resume with their B777.

What about El Al? I thought there was a Tel Aviv service if we are including the ME as part of that region.

Thanks

ps If anyone can provide pics of the private jets that will be in Miami this w/e that would be much appreciated.


User currently offlineMdsh00 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 4124 posts, RR: 8
Reply 23, posted (7 years 7 months 23 hours ago) and read 6373 times:

Quoting SJCRRPAX (Reply 13):
Well, if you consider Mexico as South America (well that's a stretch, maybe he meant Latin America), than I think he is correct.

MIA would still have it beat. The sheer amount of flights between there and Latin America, along with the Caribbean, makes MIA the gateway to Latin America.



"Look Lois, the two symbols of the Republican Party: an elephant, and a big fat white guy who is threatened by change."
User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7578 posts, RR: 25
Reply 24, posted (7 years 7 months 22 hours ago) and read 6068 times:

Quoting Getdonnie (Reply 22):
If you consider LAX the gateway to Asia and JFK the gateway to Europe, comparatively speaking, you may have more destinations served in Europe from LAX than Asian destinations served from JFK. In terms of Southern Europe how about LAX - BCN or LAX-Nice?

This is what im saying. I think LAX has lots of service to Europe. We have more service to Europe than the other West Coast Airports. The only airports I can think of that have more service to Europe are: NYC airports, ORD, ATL, MIA, and maybe BOS. We have non stops to lots of cities that some of those dont have. Our market can support nonstop flights to smaller markets like: TLV, DUB, and SVO. Considering our geographic location, we do damn well!!!



Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
25 Post contains images SJCRRPAX : Amazing how the second largest metropolitan area in the USA has many flights to Europe and Asia. Dodgers suck though, and maybe if you get lucky you'
26 Post contains images LAXdude1023 : HAHA, we wont get a football team. I cant thing of one team that would be willing to play at the crappy Coliseum downtown. Its downtown, theres no pl
27 Jfk777 : LAX has very high levels of service to Europe for the city farthest west and south in the country with such service. LHR alone has 3 BA, 2 AA, 2 UA, 1
28 Parisien : Did Alitalia really have Rome LAX non stop or did you mean Rome LAX with a stopover? I thought it was only MXP LAX non stop (indeed originated in Rome
29 Jfk777 : LAX has very high levels of service to Europe for the city farthest west and south in the country with such service. LHR alone has 3 BA, 2 AA, 2 UA, 1
30 Laxintl : Plus Malaysian and daily Singapore Airlines flights.
31 UCLAX : Back from my days working for DL at LAX during college (Go Bruins!) in the early 90s and other memories from the latter part of the 90s, here are some
32 BAW716 : Ah, one question: This list (plus the airline listing above) hits pretty much all the major European points, except Italy...which was there until AZ p
33 LAXdude1023 : As far as Europe goes from LAX, the only markets I would say that we are missing to make it a full house are MAN, MAD, and one of the Italian airpots
34 Laxintl : Via SEA, however operated nonstop last few years it ran And 763 via MUC (LH codeshare) LT also provided nonstops to MUC via LTU Sud 763s, and also wa
35 JRDC930 : Ok Lax does have a fair amount of destinations, but what about southern and eastern europe any slight posibility that maybe one more carrier from each
36 MakeMinesLAX : I was going to reply that the service was a one-stop through YYZ, but I see on the website they've turned it into a thrice-weekly nonstop with the 77
37 Ikramerica : There is also just much less of a European connection in California than there is on the East Coast and Northern USA. LA is a very large metropolis, b
38 RootsAir : A couple of years ago, we even had GVA-LAX-GVA with SR MD11
39 LongHaul67 : I don't blame them. Who would want to fly thousands of miles and spend thousands of $$ to go lie on a sunny beach somewhere when you practically live
40 Nzrich : And add in the 2/3 daily flights to New Zealand also on NZ ..Lax is the Main hub to the South Pacific from America
41 Post contains links LAXdude1023 : This is very true. Our main ties are to Asia and central America (mainly Mexico) The one group of Western European people we do have a lot of (relati
42 ZRH : You are really sure with this? Was it the flight coming from Zurich (ZRH-GVA-LAX?)? I don't think that SR had two flights to LAX. Actually LAX was a
43 Post contains images Bmacleod : Few? I didn't realize LAX had that many European destinations. YVR and YUL would love to get even half that number.
44 Flyguy1 : KLM will also be adding a second daily AMS flight this summer.
45 Post contains images Ikramerica : Well, if all you care about is beaches, then that is true. And if you want "variety" you can fly to Hawaii, Mexico, Costa Rica, etc. in only a few ho
46 Cedarjet : Not only Air NZ to London but Virgin do London double daily, and British Airways do it TRIPLE DAILY, all flights with 747-400. That's a lot of seats (
47 JRDC930 : Ok i guess I'm just greedy...lol. I'm probably one of those few Californians that hate California (no offense) and would like to visit as much of Euro
48 Nzrich : Also for the south pacific you have to add Samoa Tahiti Tonga Cook Islands and Fiji all with links to LAX as well as NZ and Aussie
49 Airbazar : I think it's combination of factors. The LA area does not have as many ties to Europe as the East coast does. Additionaly, 2 aircraft are needed to op
50 Ikramerica : I am not a big fan after living here for 8 years, and 4 years in the Bay Area earlier in my life. But most people "love it here" when you ask them...
51 SJCRRPAX : A latin radio station? More like about 20. KABC: AM 790 Talk=HD1 KALI: AM 900 Spanish; West Covina KAZN: AM 1300 Asian; Pasadena KBIG: FM 104.3 Hot A
52 OA412 : AZ did operate a nonstop FCO-LAX for a short while in the early 90's. I remember the flight being advertised in the LA Times. IIRC, it began operatin
53 Goldorak : True, but don't forget also that LAX is the technical stop/connection point between metropolitan France and French Polynesia (PPT) for AF and TN, rei
54 LongHaul67 : LAX must be overdue for a non stop to GRU. Anyone know how RG was doing on this route load-wise?
55 Post contains images Kevin777 : Just adding a little extra to the historic list: SAS was the first to do LAX from Europe IIRC back in what, 1950 or so. When CPH-LAX opened (via SFJ
56 LAXdude1023 : No, what I meant was there is a radio station called "Latino". Thats the name of the station, not the name of the format. The play reggaeton. I also
57 Post contains links and images Laxintl : Southern California has miles after miles of gorgeous wide beaches from the Mexican border, thru Orange County and North past Ventura. "Cold" compare
58 Post contains links LAXdude1023 : Very very true. Ill even take it a step further. There is no place is in the WORLD that I like better than LA. We have it all. Its more expensive tha
59 Post contains images JRDC930 : eh... I'm not going to clash swords with the LosAngelesophiles, some people like it some dont. having lived in LA only a couple of years the rest in t
60 LAXdude1023 : Haha, cant argue with that my friend. I think the route LAX is in the most need of right now is LAX-GRU, however, im not optomistic that it will happ
61 N1120A : Yes Seasonal on LTU Which can be switched to another gateway at United's whim No No demand to Europe? I would like to know how you came up with that
62 RichardJF : Thats a good point.
63 MakeMinesLAX : I found a press release indicating the service started on July 23rd. I obviously missed that announcement, and was thrown by the fact that I still sa
64 Post contains images Kevin777 : Well, maybe I had my expectations up high; in the summertime the water around the Danish beaches is often above 20 degrees celcius, so I just hoped f
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