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Dreamliner Slips On "Bird Test"  
User currently offlineLeelaw From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 16148 times:

Dreamliner slips on "bird test"

By Dominic Gates, Seattle Times aerospace reporter

Quote:
Boeing acknowledged Friday that the horizontal tail section of the 787 Dreamliner had cracked slightly during a so-called "bird-strike" test, but described the incident as a routine part of developing the new jet.

The Dreamliner program is under intense scrutiny as Boeing prepares to build the first all-composite airliner, so every glitch — or potential glitch — makes analysts and investors skittish...

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...aerospace/2003554448_boeing03.html

Hopefully both Messrs Gates and Wallace (of the Seattle P-I) will be providing a lot more "quality" grist like this for the A.net discussion "mil"l as the year unfolds.

[Edited 2007-02-03 12:05:04]

66 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineWINGS From Portugal, joined May 2005, 2831 posts, RR: 69
Reply 1, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 16115 times:

Quoting Leelaw (Thread starter):
Dreamliner slips on "bird test"

By Dominic Gates, Seattle Times aerospace reporter

A very interesting article Leelaw, thank you for sharing it with us.

Well it seems that Boeing has suffered a small glitch, although I'm more than confident that Boeing will easily handle this situation. It would seem that the horizontal tail section may have to be reinforced with additional layers of composites. It may increase the weight a little but nothing extraordinary.

I'm wondering if Boeing will perform the same test on the fuselage and wings.

Regards,
Wings



Aviation Is A Passion.
User currently offlineTinkerBelle From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 16006 times:

Quoting WINGS (Reply 1):
It would seem that the horizontal tail section may have to be reinforced with additional layers of composites

Wait, the horizonatal tail is made out of composites too?

[Edited 2007-02-03 12:11:08]

User currently offlineSlz396 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 15973 times:

Quoting Leelaw (Thread starter):
Boeing prepares to build the first all-composite airliner,

This is factually wrong and another proof of the trend which we are witnessing in which the picture is painted with a very thick pencil, incorrect generalisations -ut supra- are made and subsequently repeated 'ad infinitum' until they become so hammered in, not do they become a like a slogan linked to the product, but also do they remain widely unquestioned.

As to the contents of the article:
These things happen, that's why it is tested.
Boeing will have to add a bit more material to the weak spots of the elevator (and possibly also to other segments of the plane), take the weight increase on these pieces for what it is and move on to the next stage...


User currently offlineA380900 From France, joined Dec 2003, 1091 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 15958 times:

I thought the ground breaking composite feature of the 787 was the composite fuselage. Aren't composite horizontal stabilizer more run of the mill? I think the tail section of the A380 is composite for instance.

My point is that this problem has probably nothing to do with the 787 breaking new grounds in composite technologies. Or has it?


User currently offlineBestWestern From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2000, 6953 posts, RR: 57
Reply 5, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 15952 times:

Lets not get carried away here... These tests are what makes airline flying safe. Boeing will do nothing that is not 110% proper.

Quoting TinkerBelle (Reply 2):
Wait, the horizonatal tail is made out of composites too?

Interesting question - what was the composition of the material that showed stress?



The world is really getting smaller these days
User currently offlineEI321 From Iraq, joined Jul 2009, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 15762 times:

Is thes part of the horizontal tail not already composite on some aircraft already in service?

User currently offlineZeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 8643 posts, RR: 75
Reply 7, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 15480 times:

Quoting EI321 (Reply 6):
Is thes part of the horizontal tail not already composite on some aircraft already in service?

Composite horizontal tail was on the A300R in 1986, the A320 shortly after in 1989. The 320 has a composite vertical and horizontal tail. I think the first civil primary structure that was made from carbon fibre structure was the A310-300 in 1985.

In 1991 the A340 had a composite horizontal tail plane with an integrated fuel tank.



We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
User currently offlineSEPilot From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 6682 posts, RR: 46
Reply 8, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 15412 times:

Quoting Zeke (Reply 7):
Composite horizontal tail was on the A300R in 1986, the A320 shortly after in 1989. The 320 has a composite vertical and horizontal tail. I think the first civil primary structure that was made from carbon fibre structure was the A310-300 in 1985.

In 1991 the A340 had a composite horizontal tail plane with an integrated fuel tank.

I was under the impression that the 777 horizontal stabilizer was composite as well. The vertical stabilizer on the A300 that crashed in NY was composite also; I was under the impression that all A300 vertical stabilizers were.



The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
User currently offlineArt From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 3344 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 15385 times:

I think it is high time birds were equipped with TCAS. Wink

User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 10, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 15331 times:

What is noteworthy is that every little glitch on this program is being made public. Good move IMO. Less room for "gotcha" reporting.


"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 29689 posts, RR: 84
Reply 11, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 15294 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

On the plus side, we're seeing how easy it is to reinforce the 787's structure. A single extra layer of composite tape is all that is needed to prevent what minor damage that did occur from happening. And a single ply isn't going to add any noticeable weight to the structure.

User currently offline2H4 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 8955 posts, RR: 60
Reply 12, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 15249 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD DATABASE EDITOR




Quoting Slz396 (Reply 3):
Boeing will have to add a bit more material

Not necessarily. When a composite structure requires more strength, there are several viable solutions. It's not always a matter of simply adding more material.


2H4





Intentionally Left Blank
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 29689 posts, RR: 84
Reply 13, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 15223 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 12):
Not necessarily. When a composite structure requires more strength, there are several viable solutions. It's not always a matter of simply adding more material.

The article itself quotes a Boeing spokesperson as nothing the fix will be adding an extra ply of composite tape to the area and thickening the metal strip slightly.


User currently offlineZeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 8643 posts, RR: 75
Reply 14, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 15154 times:

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 8):
I was under the impression that all A300 vertical stabilizers were.

No, the A300 is 1972, composite fins started on the A310-300 in 1985, it was also on the A300-600R in 1986.



We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
User currently offlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 60
Reply 15, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 15029 times:

Where are all the "doom and gloom" folks on A.net...they know who they are... Wink

That being said, this reminds me of the situation a while back when Boeing had tried experimenting in manufacturing one of the barrels earlier which yielded a few "bubbles"...the A.net force was out in full swing..turned out to be nothing more than "trial and error".....I suspect this is something they will be able to deal with quickly.....composite horizontal tails have been built for a long time...



"Up the Irons!"
User currently offlineHighFlyer9790 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 1241 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 14865 times:

well, thats wht testing is for-they'll fix it and move on.


121
User currently offlineOsiris30 From Barbados, joined Sep 2006, 3186 posts, RR: 26
Reply 17, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 14833 times:

Perhaps the important stuff has been left out of this discussion:

Quote:
Gunter said the damage was within the acceptable tolerances for an airplane to continue to fly safely. "We met that standard," she said.

and

Quote:
The outcome was "a very small crack that we just weren't comfortable with," Gunter said. The crack extended through a thin metal strip along the leading edge to the carbon-fiber reinforced composite plastic of the tail structure. ... She said Boeing also evaluates how much it will cost an airline to repair any damage. That factor prompted changes that were "really driven by the economics of the situation rather than certification or safety requirements."

So sounds like the metal strip was a tad too thin to spread out the impact force sufficiently.



I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
User currently offlineCitationJet From United States of America, joined Mar 2003, 2368 posts, RR: 3
Reply 18, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 14788 times:

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 15):
Where are all the "doom and gloom" folks on A.net...they know who they are...

Anyone who think that an issue like this is a big deal has never worked in aircraft product development.



Boeing Flown: 701,702,703;717;720;721,722;731,732,733,734,735,737,738,739;741,742,743,744,747SP;752,753;762,763;772,773.
User currently offline474218 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6340 posts, RR: 9
Reply 19, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 14716 times:

Quoting Zeke (Reply 7):
I think the first civil primary structure that was made from carbon fibre structure was the A310-300 in 1985.

Composite inboard ailerons were flight tested on the Lockheed owned L-1011 in 1980. Then in-service tests were conducted using two Delta and two TWA L-1011's from 1982 thru 1987.

Reference: http://handle.dtic.mil/100.2/ada305696


User currently offline2H4 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 8955 posts, RR: 60
Reply 20, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 14578 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD DATABASE EDITOR




Quoting Stitch (Reply 13):
The article itself quotes a Boeing spokesperson as nothing the fix will be adding an extra ply of composite tape to the area and thickening the metal strip slightly.

Ah, sure enough. Thanks, Stitch!


2H4





Intentionally Left Blank
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 29689 posts, RR: 84
Reply 21, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 13924 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting CitationJet (Reply 18):
Anyone who think that an issue like this is a big deal has never worked in aircraft product development.

And that would be most of us (though I did have a tangential role in it when I worked for Boeing).  Smile


User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21417 posts, RR: 60
Reply 22, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 13829 times:

I'm pretty sure this is why you conduct these tests. Find out what needs modification, modify it.

When flying, would the crew even know if they hit a bird with the tail?



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently onlineOldAeroGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 3423 posts, RR: 67
Reply 23, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 13552 times:

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 22):
When flying, would the crew even know if they hit a bird with the tail?

If it were an 8 lb bird, ie a Canada goose, the crew would know. At 250 kts, the energy input to the h. tail would be about 22,000 ft-lbs.



Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21417 posts, RR: 60
Reply 24, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 13471 times:

Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 23):

So what kind of indication would the crew get? Noise, vibration, harshness? Slight change in attitude?



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
25 Thegooddoctor : When I read this I thought of my favorite Airbus vs. Boeing joke: The engineer from Airbus emails his friend at Boeing and tells him he's recently bee
26 VictorKilo : My guess is that this test was run to correlate the results of a computer analysis of a bird strike to a physical analysis of a bird strike - and that
27 OldAeroGuy : The noise and the airplane yaw would be the primary indications. A similar energy level would be produced if a 10 ton catering truck hit the airplane
28 Post contains images Jacobin777 : ...the only only thing the article does is give the 787 bashers some fodder for them to munch on before reality sets in... ...this is a simple experi
29 Zeke : About the same time as the A300 CFRP spoiler trial in 1980, CFRP spoilers, ailerons, and rudder were on the A310-200 in 1982. GFRP fairings were on t
30 Post contains images Lightsaber : Yep. Perhaps a layer of more impact resistant composite needs to be on the underside? This won't be much more weight. Increasing the metal strip thic
31 Ikramerica : Yep. I like to understand how everything works. If it means certain members of the forum can read things into it, that's fine. I do believe that is t
32 CitationJet : Don't you mean thaw the chickens? Unthaw would be to freeze them.
33 Post contains links Cpw : Interesting article in the Seattle Times a few years ago -- I thought it had a bit more info on the components made out of composites on previous proj
34 Rpaillard : Hi, Am I the only with the feeling that manufacturers are under such a huge pressure that they always try to be at the extreme limit? Trying harder to
35 LY4XELD : Models are just that...models. They provide a prediction. Real life is real life. That's why you test things. Developmental tests are crucial in ALL
36 Pygmalion : Just a factoid, the 777 stab and fin are both CFRP and have been from EIS. So this is not new technology for Boeing.
37 A342 : I think it already started with the very first A310-200 in 1982. And then, the original A300-600 (non-R) also got it, in 1983.
38 Nzrich : Hey with any new ground breaking aircraft there will always be problems and the 787 is no exception.. Better to find these problems during testing tha
39 Post contains images Coleplane : Yeh, but you gotta admit there's some entertainment value in this... Don't you just hate it when you botch a good joke. Just kidding. Enjoyed the who
40 Ikramerica : I'm surprised it took 34 posts to make this connection. Bending loads on a wing are much easier to model and design for than impact loads from a proj
41 Post contains images Thegooddoctor : LOL! Yes, good catch, THAW the chickens! Mornings are hard on my funny-apparatis
42 Rpaillard : Don't get me wrong. I do not establish any connexion between the two events. It's a more global reflection regarding design. My point was that, as fa
43 Wjcandee : The most important sentence of the article was missed by all: the Dreamlifter vibration problem is solved.
44 Floridaflyboy : I believe it is.
45 Woosie : A pulsed yaw moment and the noise will be the only indications. Enough for a PIREP, with a maintenance investigation upon landing.
46 TropicBird : Aircraft routinely have bird-strikes and unless they cause an out-of-limits dent or go through the hot section of an engine which then requires a time
47 Hamster : What stage is this jet in? Do you think they have a "shell" frame put together? If we opened the door of the 787 factory, what do you think we would s
48 Brendows : The first few major parts are either in production or produced have been produced, and the first few parts are even delivered for further installatio
49 Hamster : So at this point, they dont have all the parts in Seattle to produce a full aircraft.
50 WingedMigrator : You are likely correct, but you have no logical way of knowing if the statement is true. Whether you feel a collision is largely a matter of momentum
51 Zeke : They had a CFRP rudder in 1982, not fin, the fin came out about 3 years later.
52 Post contains images A342 : From the German wikipedia: Translated, it means: "The A310 was the first aircraft with a CFRP vertical stabiliser / fin". I'm quite sure the A310-200
53 Cjh2007 : Lauda Air Flight 004... hmmm
54 Post contains images Brendows : That's correct. That has been known for about two weeks now
55 Beaucaire : How can one solve a vibration problem without a flying plane???? You can simulate a lot in computer-models but never the actual flying behaviour of an
56 Post contains images Brendows : It's not vibrations on the Dreamliner that has been solved, but on the Dreamlifter. I guess that answers all of your questions
57 Beaucaire : Sorry -should have be more careful in my response...
58 Hamster : I have some questions. You are Boeing. You have all the planning and engineering done on this plane. You have been working years with suppliers on the
59 Stitch : You add an extra layer of composite tape and thicken the metal brace, both of which solve the problem for a few extra pounds of weight. Nope. Easily,
60 Leelaw : According to the article, the test failure occurred in November. The proposed fixes are likely being/have been incorporated in the tail sections bein
61 Post contains images Jacobin777 : Absolutely, I love learning the little nuances of the R&D process...I did it myself for a decade (though not in aviation, the the concepts are the sa
62 Wjcandee : Officially? And BOEING (as opposed to the engine manufacturer) did what wrong exactly in this tragic crash?
63 Leelaw : IIRC, Mr. McNerney confirmed this news during Wednesday's conference call.
64 Thebry : Exactly. The transparency of this entire project is refreshing. Boeing is ensuring the press have the details (the good and the bad) before they can
65 DAYflyer : I would presume so, can anyone answer with authority on this? Nice one! Very funny! Can you elaborate on what other options may be available?
66 Post contains links SkyTaxi : I agree 100%, Thebry, This is the revised headline from the Seattle Times (Sat 3rd) Dreamliner "bird test" prompts design tweak http://seattletimes.n
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