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New Carriers To SAN - What Gates?  
User currently offlinePanAm747 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4242 posts, RR: 8
Posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 3323 times:

It seems to be great news for Lindbergh Field recently...WestJet is returning again with its seasonal service, Air Tran is coming May 24th, and now Express Jet will be starting up.

I am absolutely thrilled that there might actually be a non-stop flight from San Diego where I live to Bakersfield where my family is - Amtrak has been very hard to get tickets for recently, and driving through L.A. is, well...what we all know it to be. Even if it expensive, what a great option!!

My question is this - gate space at SAN can be at a premium. Where are these airlines going to find gates? Will they be sharing with other airlines? Maybe Express Jet will be operating from the Commuter terminal?


Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
39 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineTrvlr From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 4430 posts, RR: 21
Reply 1, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 3251 times:

WestJet is coming back to SAN? First I've heard of it, but great news nonetheless. Where did you find this out?

Anyway, while it might seem logical for ExpressJet to try for the commuter terminal, I recall there being some sort of perimeter rule associated with the facility. Now, since I don't know the specifics--or, indeed, whether it is still in effect--I couldn't tell you how this might affect XJT's ops.

But, at any rate, apart from the Commuter Terminal I really don't see anywhere else ExpressJet can go. They're going to serve nine destinations from SAN, supposedly; that kind of schedule would easily take up an entire mainline gate at Lindbergh, and right now that's something the airport just doesn't have.

Aaron G.


User currently offlineLindy Field From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 3120 posts, RR: 13
Reply 2, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 3241 times:
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I just looked up Express Jet's schedule from SAN on the flight planner on the offical SAN site. They're planning on running two daily flights on each of their routes for a total of 18 daily departures spread throughout the day. I can't really think of anywhere they could get gate space other than the commuter terminal.

I'd also like to know the source of info about Westjet's return. I had a quick look at their website and did not see anything about their return to San Diego.

Cheers,

Edward


User currently offlineNicksair From United States of America, joined Aug 2002, 484 posts, RR: 45
Reply 3, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 3237 times:

Hey guys.. not usual for me to chime in on the SAN threads.. even when i'm a local.  Smile Anyways, AirTran will be either in Terminal 1 or 2E according to my sources. While ExpressJet will most likely take the commuter terminal since they will be doing some intra-California flying. Although when i went out on AA Eagle last Saturday.. the place was a ZOO! So i dont know how they could possibly fit in there. If they cant.. they can take some space from Terminal 1 since Frontier and Midwest moved back over to T2. If Xjet decides to take some space in T1.. Gate 19 would be a perfect choice since Alaska uses it pretty much for their morning SFO flight and when it comes back in during the evening. About the WestJet service.. i havent heard a single thing on it.. so PanAm.. check your source. If its the real deal.. im glad that they are giving San Diego another try. Anyways.. time to crawl back into my hole.  Wink
Nick "NW"  Smile



Nicholas William Reed KSAN/KLAX/KSFO
User currently offlineTrvlr From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 4430 posts, RR: 21
Reply 4, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 3164 times:

The schedules are in OAG already--and they say XJT will indeed be using the Commuter Terminal.

Still...18 flights a day? That's gonna make the place one tight squeeze.

Aaron G.


User currently offlineSan747 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 4943 posts, RR: 12
Reply 5, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 3158 times:

I hope the WestJet news is true... SAN is already on a roll for 2007 with Western, AirTran, and Expressjet...

...Who knows? Maybe PR will make the announcement of SAN service sometime in the near future?



Scotty doesn't know...
User currently offlineSANFan From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 5433 posts, RR: 12
Reply 6, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 3102 times:

I've brought up this SAN gate question in earlier posts (when these new services were announced) and didn't get any discussion. Just yesterday on the "XJET.com Up and Running" thread, I posted:

Quote:
Finally, I continue to wonder where XE will end up at Lindbergh. Gate 19 is my first thought but that will kind of depend on how many a/c at a time SAN might see. With 9 destinations (eventually) that could mean around 20-25 flights per day and I don't know how many 145s can be served in that limited (gate 19) area. I wonder what the possibility is that they might end up in the Commuter Terminal?

If the CT is correct, it will be crowded but I would assume XE's operation will be independent (no inter-lining or OA agreements?) so it makes sense. The ticketing lobby at the CT never seemed crowded to me (nor the gate area either for that matter) but I'm sure there are times... (like Nick said.)

I have noticed and been puzzled that SAN.org has not yet acknowledged FLs arrival at Lindbergh (nor have they Western's but that might be more understandable.) Therefore there has been no disclosure as to where their location will be. My guess is T2-East, out at the end maybe; that seems to be the only "available" gate real estate.

WestJet is a real surprise -- welcomed but surprising. I anxiously await some official announcement on that. Same frequency? Maybe permanent this time? (You can't tell me YYC-SAN shouldn't be a year-round market!)

BTW, where does Western do their Lindbergh thing? Anybody know where they sneak in twice a week?

As we've all been saying for a while now  Wink the gate crunch at SAN is getting very serious. I bet the Authority folks are having lots of nightmares lately when thinking about VX, PR, and maybe MX and NK and ???? announcing their formal intentions here soon! And with the 787 flying next year, who knows what exciting new service might be proposed. Sure wish we had those 10 new gates ready to go this Summer...

Gonna' be an exciting (and crowded) Summer at the airport in America's Finest this year!

bb


User currently offlinePanAm747 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4242 posts, RR: 8
Reply 7, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 3079 times:

http://www.san.org/airport/flights/airlines.asp

WestJet is listed here as "seasonal". Now whether it's coming back or not, I don't know. It is not inconceivable to think that the official government website might not be the most up-to-date source of information...

Western was the other airline I failed to mention. But is it really flying? And for how long?

My line of thinking was the Commuter Terminal for ExpressJet as well...but I guess time will tell!



Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
User currently offlineHawaiian717 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 3195 posts, RR: 7
Reply 8, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 3069 times:

Quoting SANFan (Reply 6):
BTW, where does Western do their Lindbergh thing? Anybody know where they sneak in twice a week?

If I heard them correctly on the ground frequency last weekend, they went into gate 22. They're not on the signs on Harbor Dr.

I think there's room in the Commuter Terminal for ExpressJet. Remember that Delta Connection (SkyWest) and US Airways Express (Trans States) also used to go in there back when they both had LAX hubs. There's not a lot of room though, so I think it will work best if things are pretty evenly spread throughout the day. If everyone is trying to come or go at the same time, it could get messy.


User currently offlineSANFan From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 5433 posts, RR: 12
Reply 9, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 3053 times:

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 7):
WestJet is listed here as "seasonal". Now whether it's coming back or not, I don't know.

Ahhh. If that's your source, PanAm', I'm not very optimistic. I know that last summer, WS still showed on the Airport's Air Traffic Reports, with all "0"s of course, even though they didn't serve Lindbergh after October of '05. Maybe wishful thinking on their part? (And of course, you're right about "up to date source"...) As I said in my previous post, SAN.org has not even added FL's SAN announcement to their news page yet!

(I have asked for any news on the WS subject on the "WestJet New Routes..." thread. Maybe we'll hear something there.)

bb


User currently offlineBicoastal From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 3052 times:

Quoting Nicksair (Reply 3):
they can take some space from Terminal 1 since Frontier and Midwest moved back over to T2. If Xjet decides to take some space in T1.. Gate 19 would be a perfect choice since Alaska uses it pretty much for their morning SFO flight and when it comes back in during the evening. About the WestJet service.

Frontier/Midwest moved out of Gate 18 because Alaska has the rights to it and wanted it back. Alaska's use of Gate 19 was only temporarily allowed by the airport and the TSA. The two agencies do not want passenger boarding from anything but jetways....except at the Commuter Terminal....and Alaska needed special permission for the temporary use of 19. Now that Alaska has 18 back, they don't want/need 19. Don't expect to see 19 used for anything but overnight parking.


User currently offlineCOEWRNJ From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 1064 posts, RR: 19
Reply 11, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 3016 times:

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 7):
Western was the other airline I failed to mention.

Who or what is Western Airlines? I've never heard of them. Where do they fly to from SAN?


User currently offlineFATFlyer From United States of America, joined May 2001, 5804 posts, RR: 14
Reply 12, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 3007 times:

Quoting COEWRNJ (Reply 11):
Who or what is Western Airlines? I've never heard of them. Where do they fly to from SAN?

There have been several threads about Western in the last few months.

It is a scheduled charter carrier out of BLI operating to IWA, SAN and ONT.

http://www.iflywestern.com



"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness." - Mark Twain
User currently offlineEIPremier From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 1549 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 2950 times:

Quoting Bicoastal (Reply 10):
Frontier/Midwest moved out of Gate 18 because Alaska has the rights to it and wanted it back. Alaska's use of Gate 19 was only temporarily allowed by the airport and the TSA. The two agencies do not want passenger boarding from anything but jetways....except at the Commuter Terminal....and Alaska needed special permission for the temporary use of 19. Now that Alaska has 18 back, they don't want/need 19. Don't expect to see 19 used for anything but overnight parking.

Yep, Alaska is now using 16-18 in Terminal 1 as of Jan 1, and that's three gates for 16 departures on weekdays. Otherwise it's just United in 11-15 and the Air Canada ERJ-190 to YYZ and CRJ-900 to YVR (btw I think it's awesome that they using a ERJ-190, although it does seem like san-yvz is stretching the range a bit for a non-LR version). Anyway, the UA/AS gates are still not all that heavily utilized during the midday and afternoon hours, but they are pretty much full through about 10 AM and also late evening, especially with the new 8 Pm Horizon SAN-PDX flight. So, I could see Air Tran fitting into Terminal 1 West, although Expressjet clearly wouldn't. The Commuter Terminal doesn't sound like a great fit either, given the limited ticket counter space and boarding area space, but there really isn't room anywhere else.

About gate 19, I deplaned through there once a few weeks ago. The nice thing is it's right next to the AS ticket counter, but otherwise it's undesirable because parking at the gate requires some awkward manuvering by the crew, and I'm sure TSA doesn't like staffing a checkpoint for just one flight.

[Edited 2007-02-05 02:57:41]

User currently offlineCoronado990 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 1598 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 2925 times:

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 7):
My line of thinking was the Commuter Terminal for ExpressJet as well...but I guess time will tell!

This could perhaps explain the low O&D routes from San Diego; SAN-BFL, SAN-FAT and SAN-MRY. I have a feeling the airport authority said XE could use the Commuter Terminal...despite the perimeter rule...as long as they provide non-stops to under served intra-state California markets from SAN.

I have read somewhere that the low O&D numbers between towns such as SAN and BFL, FAT or MRY in the DOT Domestic Fares tables can be explained by the fact that only AA Eagle flights show up, neglecting UA Express flights altogether, which carry the bulk of passengers through their LAX hub. I have always wondered if this is true and if it is, why UA Express does not submit their O&D numbers.



Uncle SAN at your service!
User currently offlinePanAm747 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4242 posts, RR: 8
Reply 15, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 2915 times:

Quote:
I have read somewhere that the low O&D numbers between towns such as SAN and BFL, FAT or MRY in the DOT Domestic Fares tables can be explained by the fact that only AA Eagle flights show up, neglecting UA Express flights altogether, which carry the bulk of passengers through their LAX hub. I have always wondered if this is true and if it is, why UA Express does not submit their O&D numbers.

UA Express would have to be submitting their numbers - American Eagle hasn't flown into BFL in nearly a decade.

btw, what is the perimeter rule for the Commuter Terminal? If it's only intra-California routes allowed, ExpressJet is going to have a tough time with that one - they have a lot of out of state routes showing.



Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
User currently offlineFATFlyer From United States of America, joined May 2001, 5804 posts, RR: 14
Reply 16, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 2878 times:

Quoting Coronado990 (Reply 14):
I have read somewhere that the low O&D numbers between towns such as SAN and BFL, FAT or MRY in the DOT Domestic Fares tables can be explained by the fact that only AA Eagle flights show up, neglecting UA Express flights altogether, which carry the bulk of passengers through their LAX hub. I have always wondered if this is true and if it is, why UA Express does not submit their O&D numbers.

That used to be true. I think it was a couple of years ago that all airlines were required to start submitting their info.

Current info is up to date but it would make it hard to compare historical data.



"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness." - Mark Twain
User currently offlineBicoastal From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 2832 times:

Quoting EIPremier (Reply 13):
Anyway, the UA/AS gates are still not all that heavily utilized during the midday and afternoon hours, but they are pretty much full through about 10 AM and also late evening

United's gates are heavily utilized, including its ground handling of Air Canada, through 1:30 pm. There might be a 3 or 4 hour window before the last westbound flights from IAD, Chicago and Denver start arriving after 5 pm for the overnights and tows off their gates. No airline as large as United is at SAN is going to want have their gates used even for one or two flights by another airline, should they need them for irregular operations, ground delays (frequent for flights to United's hubs in SFO and ORD). I've personally experienced waiting at United's gates in SAN waiting for ATC delays to be lifted elsewhere. Meanwhile United flights came and went at other gates. From what I've observed, Alaska's gates have down time but they want to build their schedule over the next few years.

There's definately downtime at SAN gates after 1:30, but that's the worst time for departures to anything east of the Mississippi because the flights arrive too late for connections. Airlines all want gates during the prime hours.


User currently offlineCoronado990 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 1598 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 2829 times:

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 15):
btw, what is the perimeter rule for the Commuter Terminal?

I believe it is 500 miles.

Quoting FATFlyer (Reply 16):
Current info is up to date but it would make it hard to compare historical data.

Thank you.



Uncle SAN at your service!
User currently offlineNicksair From United States of America, joined Aug 2002, 484 posts, RR: 45
Reply 19, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 2808 times:

Quoting Bicoastal (Reply 10):
Frontier/Midwest moved out of Gate 18 because Alaska has the rights to it and wanted it back. Alaska's use of Gate 19 was only temporarily allowed by the airport and the TSA. The two agencies do not want passenger boarding from anything but jetways....except at the Commuter Terminal....and Alaska needed special permission for the temporary use of 19. Now that Alaska has 18 back, they don't want/need 19. Don't expect to see 19 used for anything but overnight parking.

Thats pretty much what i was saying.. the inbound flight from SFO RON's then goes back up there the next morning.  Smile
Nick



Nicholas William Reed KSAN/KLAX/KSFO
User currently offlineDavestanKSAN From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 1678 posts, RR: 13
Reply 20, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 2779 times:

Quoting Bicoastal (Reply 10):
Frontier/Midwest moved out of Gate 18 because Alaska has the rights to it and wanted it back. Alaska's use of Gate 19 was only temporarily allowed by the airport and the TSA. The two agencies do not want passenger boarding from anything but jetways....except at the Commuter Terminal....and Alaska needed special permission for the temporary use of 19. Now that Alaska has 18 back, they don't want/need 19. Don't expect to see 19 used for anything but overnight parking.



Quoting Nicksair (Reply 19):

Oh really? It was cool that F9 and YX used 18 because the same company that does ramp for AS does F9 and YX. (I think they still do).

"Gate" 19 isn't the first choice I would pick to park. When I worked at SAN in 05 before the US/HP merge we would park our RON US a/c at 19. Or if there were no wheelchair/special needs pax we could have the pax de-plane at 19 with air-stairs. Let me tell you it sucks to marshal an A321 into 19. Good God. Then we had to avoid UA (they were using 18 back then) when we towed the US plane from 19 to 15 or vice-versa.

I need to get my SAN info updated. Crap.

The commuter terminal is nice. Especially all of the Administrative offices upstairs. Great views of SAN. Anyway ExpressJet will have to share the bagroom if they operate from the commuter terminal with UA and AA express.

Great to see new Airlines coming to SAN. And good to talk to you SAN interested A.net folks as well 

Dave

[Edited 2007-02-05 07:55:10]


Yesterday we've sinned, today we move towards God. Touch the sky....love and respect...Safe Star!
User currently offlineSANFan From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 5433 posts, RR: 12
Reply 21, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 2761 times:

Quoting DavestanKSAN (Reply 20):
"Gate" 19 isn't the first choice I would pick to park.

How ya doin' Dave? Always good to hear from you.

And besides, WHEN Int'l Heavy's (like PR's?) start visiting SAN regularly, and using gate 20/21, it will be virtually impossible to get anything in or out of 19! Big grin

I have finally begun to accept the fact that some valuable real estate on the tarmac (e.g. gate 19) is just wasted concrete now and is essentially expensive storage.

bb


User currently offlineDavestanKSAN From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 1678 posts, RR: 13
Reply 22, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 2751 times:

Quoting SANFan (Reply 21):
How ya doin' Dave? Always good to hear from you.

Hey Bob, thank you my friend, good to hear from you as well. Things are going pretty well down here. Today was tough with the Superbowl and the Chargers not being in it, wahhh. haha. How are things up in SEA? Hope all is well Big grin. Anytime you're heading for SAN let me know.

Quoting SANFan (Reply 21):
And besides, WHEN Int'l Heavy's (like PR's?) start visiting SAN regularly, and using gate 20/21, it will be virtually impossible to get anything in or out of 19!

 laughing , very true.

Quoting SANFan (Reply 21):
I have finally begun to accept the fact that some valuable real estate on the tarmac (e.g. gate 19) is just wasted concrete now and is essentially expensive storage.

 checkmark  Really too bad. Hopefully that will change with the upgrades to SAN. Is that still happening? Maybe some NIMBY's heard about it and complained, haha.

All the best,

Dave



Yesterday we've sinned, today we move towards God. Touch the sky....love and respect...Safe Star!
User currently offlineBicoastal From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 2704 times:

Quoting Nicksair (Reply 19):
Thats pretty much what i was saying.. the inbound flight from SFO RON's then goes back up there the next morning

But they don't deplane or board from 19. The plane is towed to 16, 17, or 18 for boarding.


User currently offlineCOERJ145 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1421 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 2644 times:

Quoting Nicksair (Reply 3):
Although when i went out on AA Eagle last Saturday.. the place was a ZOO! So i dont know how they could possibly fit in there

UA only uses one gate at a time, AA uses up to two, there are 4 gates at the commuter terminal. I'd assume one gate would be an All ExpressJet or one shared with UA.


25 Post contains images Nicksair : Oh but they do.. i got off at 19 on January 27th on Alaska 360 from SFO. While back in November 11th i boarded from 19 on Alaska 599. But you are rig
26 SANFan : As back-up to your statement Nick, the flight arr/dep status display on the SAN.org website almost always shows AS flight 360 (~9:30PM arrival) using
27 Boeing7E7 : Patently false. 19 blocks 20, this is the only reason. The TSA has zero input on which gates will and will not be used. They do not regulate use of a
28 Post contains images Silver1SWA : Just an observation...United rarely uses gate 11, if at all, throughout the day. Seems it is only used for a RON right now. Well, don't give up just
29 Bicoastal : I stand corrected on the late arrival deplaning. It's the only one during the day. November 11th was during the time Alaska had special airport and T
30 SANFan : As I just posted on another thread (XJET.com Up and Running) it's impressive to see the full 18-flight turn schedule for XE after June 4 with 3 RON. I
31 Post contains images SANFan : In fact, Silver', it looks like as we speak, gate 3 is getting a workout! From SAN.org's "Flight Information" page: (gate # follows city) WN 1933 Depa
32 Silver1SWA : First of all, I stated that it was just an observation. I have no actual numbers. All I know is, I work at gate 10 three times a week (actually yeste
33 PanAm747 : Well, ExpressJet has its website up and running complete with prices...roundtrip SAN-BFL is running $149...I'm impressed!! And I will be flying it a l
34 Post contains links SANFan : Hey '747, gate usage was confirmed earlier by Boeing7E7: Start dates in SAN, according to the link below to the XE website, are progressive starting w
35 SANFan : After completing and studying SAN turn schedules (for the 4 start dates) I noticed a few things which I (but probably nobody else will) find mildly in
36 Boeing7E7 : This post is factualy inaccurate: As is this post:
37 Post contains images Coronado990 : Hey SANFan, When I tore up the schedule, I noticed that one aircraft does this... SAN....6:25a COS....9:36a COS...10:10a SAN...11:33a SAN...12:00n BF
38 Post contains images SJCRRPAX : Damm, I must have been in the navy too long. I honestly thought the topic was sentence was wrong. I thought it should have been, "New Carriers to SAN
39 SANFan : Yes, Coronado. I saw connecting opportunities as well and I don't understand why XE wouldn't run at least some as thru-flights. Their booking engine
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