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The Rise Of Manchester: Media City UK And Aviation  
User currently offlineConcorde001 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 1230 posts, RR: 3
Posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 6368 times:

I am from London, and have always thought London was not only Britain's premier city, but also one of the world's leading centres for culture, entertainment, arts, media, and perhaps more importantly political and economic power. It is truly a great city and I think the majority of people would agree. These characteristics have played a large role in making London one of the world's most important air transportation hubs, with the majority of airlines knocking at the door to fly here. There is a massive amount of O&D traffic and for airlines like British Airways, Virgin Atlantic and BMI, being based in London is perhaps their biggest strength.

For a small island nation like Britain, I think it is universally agreed that it would be unlikely for the country to have other cities with similar international significance. Even as late as last week I would have agreed with this view, but then I began to study developments in one of Britain's most important cities...Manchester!

Like Glasgow, Newcastle and Birmingham, Manchester was one of quartet of British cities outside London that were the world's most wealthiest and arguably the most envied in the 19th and early 20th centuries. But with the decline of Britain as a whole in the late 20th century, these cities were forgotten and lost there international appeal and more importantly, their economic power.

In terms of aviation, Manchester is probably nowhere near as lucrative or attractive as London for airlines. British Airways have continually cut services and have just sold their regional operation to a LCC carrier; non - London services just don't fit into their business plan. BMI have longhaul services from MAN, but once LHR is opened up after Open Skies, it is well known that BD will cut and run from Manchester. My question is, are these airlines making a mistake?

I ask this because I have just finished looking at present and future plans for developing Manchester and all I can say is wow! The city is really on the move and by 2011 it will one of Europe's most important cities! I feel these types of developments, particularly economic will give a huge boost to Manchester's aviation industry. For airlines like British Airways who chase the high yielding business passengers, I think their decision to abandon Manchester may prove to be a bad one in the long term. Please read my reasons below:

1. The development of Manchester into an international Media City


Below are the plans for the development of a multi-million, international 24 hour media city in Salford, Manchester, which is being aimed to rival the world's other media cities! It was just approved 2 weeks ago! The BBC is going to set up its main media complex in the media city (called Media City UK), making Manchester its most important media base outside London with 50% of its London staff relocating to Manchester! Numerous international news agencies are touted to move to Manchester and it is expected that Media City UK will deliver:


  • £1.5bn to the regional economy.
  • Employment opportunities for 15,500 people.
  • 700,000 sq m (over 7m sq ft) of new and refurbished floorspace for business, retail and residential property.
  • 1,500 trainee posts per year.
  • Space for 1,150 creative and related businesses.
  • The creation of over £225m per annum in additional net value added.
  • Influx of journalists and media specialists from around the world.
  • An international reputation for excellence in media and creative industries!


If you watch the two videos below and look at the construction plans, it is clear Manchester will become an important city. These plans are already being described by BBC executives as a "compelling vision" and a leap into the future "of global significance".



http://www.mediacityuk.co.uk/img/gallery/MCUK1night.jpg
http://www.mediacityuk.co.uk/img/gallery/MCUK2night.jpg
http://www.mediacityuk.co.uk/img/gallery/MCUK3day.jpg




2. The rise of Manchester's Economy and Business Infrastructure


  • According to national statistics, Manchester's economy is growing faster and out-striping that of the rest of the UK.
  • Voted the best city for business in 2006 by Britain's Business Survey.
  • Home to the fastest growing law firm in Britain.
  • Recent significant investments by Bank of New York, RBS, Deloitte, Kleinwort Benson, Barclaycard and AIG - all of these companies have a presence and operations in Manchester's Business district.
  • The development of a £265m supercasino complex - the only one in the UK!
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/07/uk_politics_enl_1170167347/img/1.jpg
  • The development of Spinningfields -a world class business district. Construction is underway and Manchester is set to have the following award winning buildings! For example, 1 Hardman Square is currently in the planning process and it looks wonderful:
    http://www.skyscrapernews.com/images/pics/2151HardmanSquare_pic1.jpg


With all these developments and the desire of Manchester City Council to make the city the next 'Frankfurt', it is clear Manchester is a city going places. With international journalists, media specialists and a growing number of business travellers making their way to Manchester, shouldn't airlines like British Airways strengthen their position in MAN for the long term? For example Media City UK was only given the go-ahead 2 weeks ago and it seems further announcements of developing the economy are likely - it is public knowledge that Manchester is actively seeking to attract another world class financial company to the city! In the short term, Manchester may continue to be the low yielding city, but what about in 2011, when Media City UK has been developed, the Supercasino is open for business and Spinningfields is completed? All of this will be on top of Manchester's current status as a city home to two of the richest football clubs in the world and bags of cultural and academic heritage!

In my view, developments in Manchester will only strengthen the air travel market of the city and has the potential to increase the amount of high yielding passengers. In my view, no other city in the UK is growing in importance as Manchester is. What do you think? Is Manchester on the rise and should airlines be exploiting the city's rise in significance?

54 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineConcorde001 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 1230 posts, RR: 3
Reply 1, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 6251 times:

I forgot to add that Manchester Airport is predicting a increase to 40m passengers by 2015.

However, these predictions were made before the announcement of the massive investment in Media City UK (which was announced only last month!) Surely this must have an impact upon travel by air in and out Manchester, especially considering the fact thousands of foreign media and IT specialists will be based in the city?

Had BA known this, do you think they would have stayed in Manchester with BA Connect? Either way, I think Manchester's airport will benefit, but I'm not sure which airlines will take advantage...LCCs or full service?


User currently offlineJonnyWishbone From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2007, 143 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 6219 times:

Dont forget its proximity to Leeds which is buzzing at the moment, 50+ floor buildings going up everywhere and Liverpool too.

Back to aviation.... Have BA made a mistake, I think so! Selling out BA Connect will hurt them far more than the £ 6 million it lost, because Gold Card hodlers like me will start using Star Alliance Lufthansa to Germany, which then makes me think that i'll use BMI domestically to get my points up and before you know it BA have lost all my intercontinental business as I start using Star or similar for all my other journies - I think that everyone who isnt a city fatcat, yet needs to travel on business will radically change their thinking now that they can no longer use BA, if they have not already done so with the dumbing down of the brand by making it Connect!

I agree that Manchester is expanding, but who will it attract? I dont think QF will be back as they are too embedded with BA at LHR. It would be nice to see NZ go via Shanghai to Auckland (especially as I use PVG!) and Cathay too, but again, I feel they (CX) are too embroiled in OneWorld to ever leave the codeshare arrangement!

There was an opportunity for BMI to do some major expansion, but as they dont seem to be able to arrange a piss up in a brewery, that idea's gone west! So, unless one of the big boys is prepared to go into MAN for the longhaul, we'll be stuck with fragmented expansion courtesy of GSM, Air Asia potentially and no MAJOR flag carrier. Whilst it's nice to see a bit of Kenya Airways and Saudi Arabian, the thought of T2 being able to handle another 3000 families on a day trip to see the relatives leaves me cold!

For the businessman, I see no improvement in the forseeable future, with us fighting with young Kylies and Kellie Maries, trying to squeeze our briefcases on a crammed Jet2 flight to AMS for the day!

Your disolutioned

JonnyWishbone


User currently offlineIncitatus From Brazil, joined Feb 2005, 4002 posts, RR: 13
Reply 3, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 6154 times:

Is this thread an ad or what?

User currently offlineCandid76 From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2005, 733 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 6137 times:

Aviation goes in phases and the current state of play hasn't been too kind to Manchester. However I firmly believe that this will change as the industry continues to develop. This year will be nothing to write home about, the lack of significant new long haul business (Saudia won't have mass appeal, and is likely to only serve the cost sensitive Indian sub-continent market, although it does allow a link for some business travel to the Kingdom), Kenya have already cancelled their slots and I don't expect to see any surprise positive announcements (hope I'm wrong!). The whole low cost phenomenon has contributed to increased pax figures over the last few years which have now levelled out, but overall has been very bad news for MAN, allowing competing airports to rise from nowhere to be strong competitors, and more importantly in my view, leaving our business travellers (as correctly pointed out by JonnyWishbone above) with no suitable product on many routes. Not all passengers want no frills as I've said many times before. Even some of our established more leisure oriented airlines have suffered, with Norwegian and Air Baltic also now pulling out.

Looking forward, two developments in the near future give reason to be quite optimistic. Firstly, the next generation of long haul aircraft, the 787 and A350, lend themselves to point to point services avoiding overcrowded hubs, where current generation aircraft may be too large or too expensive to operate without a good helping of F class pax (which MAN famously lacks in sufficient numbers - for now). Secondly, the new generation of low cost long haul airlines will look favourably on MAN (although I fear they too will want a slice of London business first as that's where their own tourists will want to go), which at least may open up new route possibilities. So from around 2009 (or possibly even next year) we may see Air Asia X, Jetstar et al re-establishing links to Malaysia, Australia and maybe other countries, while Singapore, the US carriers and hopefully Cathay and Thai benefit from the steadily increasing high yield market that economic development will bring. Also, bear in mind that business aviation will also benefit, especially so if there are very limited high quality scheduled services tailored for high net worth passengers.

As far as BA is concerned, yes, they are taking a short term view in order to produce maximum short term benefits for their shareholders. They need to be focused on LHR Terminal 5, which will put all of their eggs in one basket (a policy which has bitten them numerous times recently). With London as economically dominant as it is now, that is maybe OK, but in the future they may find it difficult to establish the kind of secondary hub which they already had foundations for without huge cost implications. But does MAN really need BA anyway?

Britain can only benefit from having two economic powerhouses that can compete on a global scale, these being London and Manchester (with Leeds and Liverpool). Concentration of economic activity in one corner of the UK has caused major problems - transport, housing for example are under severe pressure in the South East. This does need to change.

I hope Concorde001's predictions do come true, I would, I'm a Mancunian. I think things are looking up.


User currently offlineConcorde001 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 1230 posts, RR: 3
Reply 5, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 6132 times:

Quoting JonnyWishbone (Reply 2):
JonnyWishbone

Thank you for your comments.
May I ask, as you are a company director, what are your views and those of your colleagues and counterparts about Manchester's development - particularly what developments are needed at the airport in terms of airlines and service to aid and support development? For example, what services are the business community crying out for - China, India, Brazil?

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 3):
Is this thread an ad or what?

It is meant to be a thread!

I've put alot of pictures and videos regarding Manchester's development because as a Londoner, I had this stereotypical view of Manchester as an old, run down industrial city that had its day long ago! But when I visited the city and had a look at the massive projects in and around the city, I was pleasantly surpised and impressed - I am trying to relate this to aviation!

Manchester has recently been in the news as British Airways is withdrawing a majority of its services, particularly services to European capitals and economic centres. BMI is only committed to Manchester in the short term as once EU-US Open Skies is in force, it is common knowledge they will withdraw from the city. But with all the development, economic growth out-striping the rest of Britain, development of a financial district and the massive Media City Project in co-operation with the BBC, I am trying to assess (with the help of the a.net community) whether airlines like BA and BMI are making a mistake by giving up too early.

I have placed pictures and videos to portray the extent and significance of Manchester's plans to make the city one of the most important in Europe and how these plans will impact aviation in the city.


User currently offlineJonnyWishbone From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2007, 143 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 6057 times:

Concorde001,

I am a company director, in charge of what I spend and where I go... I love MAN, both the airport and the city, but am dismayed at the inability of a UK airline to do make it a decent hub. I compare it to the great job LH have made of MUC, which is a much more pleasurable transiting experience than FRA and I am somewhat dispondent.

I had such high hopes, as we all did, of BMI making it their hub, with a fleet of A330s and a high class service, but with more business models than aircraft and a management that have not got a clue, this has clearly gone nowhere!

I have friends who are highly involved in developing Manchester and are looking at developing Barton as a 'City Airport', what a waste of time... This sort of petty scheme will harm MAN, not help it!

Where do I go... China, Brazil, US lots, but with a direct service, i'm sure i'd be the only person on board!!! At the moment, if I travel to PVG, I buy a ticket in BRU on BA thru LHR for £ 1600 in club, then get a cheapie to BRU. This way I get the best bed in the sky for £ 3500 cheaper than a MAN-LHR-PVG ticket. The only downside for more point to point Manchester traffic is that fares will be sky high. The MAN-ORD fares are the most expensive on AA's website if you want a straight O&D ticket. If we can attract the likes of NZ to do a reasonably priced direct service to PVG or HKG, I think there will be some serious take up by Northern businessmen who have more money than sense!

As has been suggested before, I cannot see why the likes of Virgin or BMI cant open up some new destinations as 2 or 3 times a week flights and not make them work, eg LAX, SFO, MIA, HKG, JNB, BOM.

As you say, the next few years will be interesting for MAN, all the development will only help the airport, not hinder it, but it needs a forward thinking management team as well as forward thinking airlines to make the bugger work!


User currently offlineConcorde001 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 1230 posts, RR: 3
Reply 7, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 6034 times:

Thanks for your comments JonnyWishbone.

Quoting JonnyWishbone (Reply 6):
Where do I go... China, Brazil, US lots, but with a direct service, i'm sure i'd be the only person on board!!!

That is interesting....why do you say that? Do you think this will change once Media City and other aspects of the city are developed by 2011?

Quoting JonnyWishbone (Reply 6):
At the moment, if I travel to PVG, I buy a ticket in BRU on BA thru LHR for £ 1600 in club, then get a cheapie to BRU. This way I get the best bed in the sky for £ 3500 cheaper than a MAN-LHR-PVG ticket. The only downside for more point to point Manchester traffic is that fares will be sky high.

I can see you like a bargain!  Wink But if most business travellers are doing this, I can perhaps see why Manchester is a low yielding city for airlines - airlines like $$$! I think it is always the case that direct services always charge more than connections.

Quoting JonnyWishbone (Reply 6):
The MAN-ORD fares are the most expensive on AA's website if you want a straight O&D ticket. If we can attract the likes of NZ to do a reasonably priced direct service to PVG or HKG, I think there will be some serious take up by Northern businessmen who have more money than sense!

I have heard on a.net that AA's MAN-ORD flight is its most profitable and this helps explain why! As for attracting the likes of NZ to introduce reasonably priced air tickets, I'm not convinced! Airlines are in the business to make the highest possible profit, so if the market allows them to charge high fares like AA, then they will come to Manchester and charge high fares. Maybe that is the current problem with Manchester? Do you think this will change once Media City UK and other developments have been completed?


User currently offlineHumberside From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2005, 4917 posts, RR: 4
Reply 8, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 6005 times:

Quoting Candid76 (Reply 4):
Even some of our established more leisure oriented airlines have suffered, with Norwegian and Air Baltic also now pulling out.

Norweigan are flying to BGO arent still aren't they?



Visit the Air Humberside Website and Forum
User currently offlineJonnyWishbone From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2007, 143 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 5969 times:

Dont be calling me tight Concorde001!!!

Let's be brutally honest.... The vast majority of Club transfer passengers thru LHR are on dicount J tickets like me. All the big companies on direct flights are buying them at £ 1800, not the £ 5000 BA and others crave for... It's just the poor small businessman who pays full whack as he aint got the buying power, unless he wants to travel like a sardine on KLM with half a plane load of yaks on a 747 combi!

Nobody pays £ 4000 to go to Oz, NZ or the rest of the world on Emirates, yet they're chock a block and making money (not a good airline though) and I am sure will go 3x daily soon. Travelled on Qatar before Christmas... 90% full and £ 1400 to the Maldives on an 'almost' flat bed. You dont have to pay top whack to make money, but you DO need a good hub and spoke network to make the thing work.

After Media city and the new casino opens, will it make a difference??? Hmm, well that's in the marketing. It's more likely to mean even more crammed trains and no chance of cabin crew going standby on the shuttle, who knows whether it will make a difference internationally... It all depends whether the visiting Spanish businessman can sit in a bit of comfort from Barcelona, without worrying whether or not his suit is getting crumpled by a plethora of tax free booze, oversized sombreros and stuffed donkeys!!

J


User currently offlineConcorde001 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 1230 posts, RR: 3
Reply 10, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 5784 times:

Quoting Candid76 (Reply 4):
Britain can only benefit from having two economic powerhouses that can compete on a global scale, these being London and Manchester (with Leeds and Liverpool).

I agree, though I think Bristol and Cardiff along with Glasgow and Edinburgh also have serious potential.

Quoting JonnyWishbone (Reply 9):
Dont be calling me tight Concorde001!!!

I wouldn't dream of it -£1800 is certainly not cheap. My apolgies if any offence was caused  

Incidentally there is more good news for Manchester as Yahoo has opened an office in the city, similar to Google's move in 2005. One can only assume that with the arrival of Media City, more and more businesses, particulalry IT and media companies will flock to Manchester - this can only be good news for the airport and possibility of new services from the city.

[Edited 2007-02-08 12:12:22]

User currently offlineGayrugbyMAN From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2005, 1737 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 5762 times:

Quoting Humberside (Reply 8):
Even some of our established more leisure oriented airlines have suffered, with Norwegian and Air Baltic also now pulling out.

That is totally factually wrong. Air Berlin are increasing HAM services this summer and the STN route is running at a profit as is PAD and Norwegian have just announced their intention to continue their very popular BGO service through the summer!


User currently offlineCandid76 From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2005, 733 posts, RR: 4
Reply 12, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 5747 times:

Well it wasn't factually wrong when I posted it GRM. As of today the Bergen service may have been reinstated for the summer, but I can assure you that they had decided to end it (but they have said that before!).

User currently offlineConcorde001 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 1230 posts, RR: 3
Reply 13, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 5624 times:

Thanks for all your posts guys...keep them coming!

Going back to the issue of Manchester's regeneration and the impact on aviation in the city, I have just been reading that when Dubai opened its very own Media City a few years ago (2002?), the likes of CNN and Reuters established large bases in the area. Does anyone know what kind of impact this has had on the level of Dubai's point to point traffic? If I'm not mistaken, the more Dubai has developed itself and diversified its economy, more and more people come to Dubai on business, rather than use the place as a transit area for Emirates! Is Virgin's entry on the LHR-DXB sector and the Delta's entry on the ATL-DXB sector proof of this?

If Media City UK is successful, could we see a similar story in Manchester? If I'm not mistaken, Manchester will be one of the largest purpose built media cities in Europe with a large cluster of businesses all operating in one area - if the likes of CNN and Reuters established themselves in this area (BBC and ITV will be) surely this will create demand for new routes from MAN?


User currently offlineDemoose From Canada, joined Mar 2001, 1952 posts, RR: 23
Reply 14, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 5607 times:

Well the BBC did a survey this week to see which UK city people regard as second after London, in the past it was always thought to be Birmingham, but this survey showed Manchester is now considered to be the UK's second city.

The survey is reported here:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/6349501.stm

Mark



Take a ride...fly across the sky
User currently offlineStirling From Italy, joined Jun 2004, 3943 posts, RR: 21
Reply 15, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 5576 times:

I don't expect anyone to read all 81 pages of this report, however it is a good place to start when looking at the evolution/devolution England.

http://www.campus.ncl.ac.uk/unbs/hylife2/lib/files/5202Lyons.pdf

The governments plan to decentralise its activities, will I believe, have an even greater impact on cities such as Manchester than anything the public sector could muster. One of the strongest suits London brings to the table is its size...people. People who are most likely employed by the crown. The thinking is, spread these folks out to better utilise the infrastructure in place elsewhere, but going unused.

The other side of this is that London is approaching saturation. This isn't 1980, when the Docklands represented an enormous addition of property to the city. (Anyone remember the film "Long Good Friday"?, when Bob Hoskins is standing out in the empty docks...saying that the area was going to be biggest thing to ever happen to London.)
And even if the city did come across a swath of a couple hundred acres to redevelop....could the city realistically absorb anymore people?

Decentralising the government is not something they want to do, but rather something they are being forced to do. A major crime lab was recently relocated to Birmingham...thousands of more are still on the table...to all over, the Southwest, Midlands, Northeast....you name it.

For centuries there has been an awful lot of ego involved in things....efforts to keep London as the "Capital of the World", so, while there was room, more and more was shoe-horned in. The party is now over, and the time is now to address London's gluttony.
Will all this hurt London? I don't think so. If anything, it will make the country stronger, more efficient.
As for aviation, new terminals and all, Heathrow can build terminals 6, 7, 8, and 9 if they like, but until they stomach the reality that some folks will need to be relocated and build another runway, London cannot be the European Hub they feel it should be.

Enter: Manchester.
Things might be bleak now, but remember, aviation moves slowly....that is when it comes to positive change. Sure, on the surface, events may appear to be moving at the speed of light, with airlines coming and going with all-too frequent regularity; these events however should not be seen as indicators of where the airport is headed for in the future.

Example: New York.
One only need look to NYC and see how it has taken 40 years for the situation to evolve. Once upon a time, the only way to leave the nation for Europe was through NYC....now, major gateways have popped up in places no one would have imagined 25 years ago; Atlanta, Washington, Philadelphia...
The same will happen in England.
I am talking about full-fledged international gateways, well-beyond the scope of the present situation of airports like Manchester offering a smattering of destinations spread amongst a handful of airlines, that cater to the lowest segment of the market place.

This is where the government's dencentralisation plan comes in. Even if the destination isn't centre-city Manchester, any relocations within 75kms will benefit the whole. Good paying jobs, the businesses they incubate, the cycle of cash-flow will turn over several times and reach many hands.....those hands will then do what they are trained to do....plan for holiday travel. (A national past-time!)
It's a base, a jumping off point, just as the parade of discounters is now...What it leads to is training future generations to expect, demand, and justify better air service for Manchester.
Your parents, and their parents grew up in a generation when the only way to leave the UK, was by way of London. Yes, a few flights existed from secondary England airports but they were few and far between.
Ironically, one of the largest offerers of International travel bypassing London, was British Midland...BMI.

As to where they went wrong? I can't sum it up any better than this:

Quoting JonnyWishbone (Reply 6):
with more business models than aircraft and a management that have not got a clue

Why BMI felt the need to grapple with British Airways in London is a debate with no winners or losers.
But given BA's aversion, almost phobic handsoff approach to the hinterland, BMI had the hinterland to themselves....granted, things were not so great back then in the days of Thatcher-Privatisation either.
But as the saying goes, hindsight is 20/20.

Well, apologies for the long-winded nature of this post. Suffice to say.....
My crystal ball sees a nice future for Manchester. If Germany can have several world-class cities, (Frankfurt, Munich, Berlin), or Spain (Madrid, Barcelona), and even confused Italy (Roma, Milano), why can't the English? All it will take is a mass-changing of the collective national mindset, and that is, London is not interchangeable with England, the United Kingdom, or Great Britain....London is just a slice, a big bloated piece of an even bigger pie. It is time to spread the wealth.



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User currently offlinePhilb From Ireland, joined May 1999, 2915 posts, RR: 13
Reply 16, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 5554 times:

Quoting Stirling (Reply 15):
Your parents, and their parents grew up in a generation when the only way to leave the UK, was by way of London. Yes, a few flights existed from secondary England airports but they were few and far between.
Ironically, one of the largest offerers of International travel bypassing London, was British Midland...BMI.

That's not specifically true. Until the mid 1960s the main ways of leaving the UK were by passenger ferry from Dover/Folkestone and Harwich into Europe or from Southampton and Liverpool by ocean going liner for destinations further afield.

Heathrow then quickly overtook the sea ports as air fares decreased in real terms as a proportion of income.

Manchester had daily BOAC and Later BA flights to NYC, Montreal and Toronto from the early 1960s as well as an extensive fifth freedom Aer Lingus network into Europe from around 1956 to the early 1970s plus BEA and other airline routes (Air France, Sabena and KLM for instance on a daily basis) from the 1950s.

BMI (previously British Midland and Derby Aviation) has never had a worthwhile network to Europe and beyond bypassing London. In fact, its slot position at Heathrow generates far too much traffic to Heathrow from the provinces.


User currently offlineMAS777 From United Kingdom, joined Jul 1999, 2935 posts, RR: 6
Reply 17, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 5457 times:

Let's not forget that Manchester United continues to have its largest fan base in Malaysia and their 'Reds Bar' in Central KL continues to beam live matches to ardent fans...



User currently offlineMAS777 From United Kingdom, joined Jul 1999, 2935 posts, RR: 6
Reply 18, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 5454 times:

Quoting MAS777 (Reply 17):
Let's not forget that Manchester United continues to have its largest fan base in Malaysia and their 'Reds Bar' in Central KL continues to beam live matches to ardent fans...

sorry forgot to add the pic...


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Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Gerhard Vysocan - Aviation Art Photography - VAP



User currently offlineConcorde001 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 1230 posts, RR: 3
Reply 19, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 5270 times:

Quoting Demoose (Reply 14):
Well the BBC did a survey this week to see which UK city people regard as second after London, in the past it was always thought to be Birmingham, but this survey showed Manchester is now considered to be the UK's second city.

It was very interesting to hear,and I agree with it too. Manchester has a rich history of great culture,music,sport, industry and politics.

Quoting Stirling (Reply 15):
Decentralising the government is not something they want to do,

Thanks for your post Stirling.The government is not going far enough - Britain really needs federalism, everything is still far too London centric.

Quoting Stirling (Reply 15):
My crystal ball sees a nice future for Manchester. If Germany can have several world-class cities, (Frankfurt, Munich, Berlin), or Spain (Madrid, Barcelona), and even confused Italy (Roma, Milano), why can't the English? All it will take is a mass-changing of the collective national mindset, and that is, London is not interchangeable with England, the United Kingdom, or Great Britain....London is just a slice, a big bloated piece of an even bigger pie. It is time to spread the wealth.

Germany, Spain and Italy are federal/decentralised nations, Britain is not. In my view, Britain cannot have the multiple industrial and economic powerhouses that Germany enjoys (Frankfurt, Munich, Stuttgart, Hamburg, Dusselforf etc) without meaningful decentralisation of economic power to Britain's regions. Even the current devolution in Scotland and Wales is not good enough because it simply gives the executive in each to have the majority of power once enjoyed by Westminster. It is the same 'top-down' approach which benefits some parts of the country and hurts the other - for example, just look at Edinburgh and Glasgow, and back in the days before the Greater London Authority and Mayoral powers, London and rest of the country.

For example, if Edinburgh and the Lothians were granted the type of power enjoyed by the Greater London Authority (arguably even more powers, the like of which London is currently demanding from the Government), which would allow full responsibility for economic development, transport etc, this part of eastern Scotland would be revolutionised. Just imagine if Glasgow, Manchester and Lancashire, York and Yorkshire, Bristol and Cardiff with similar powers within a federal structure...Britain would be a much better place, economically, politically and above all and most importantly, in terms of aviation!!!!!  Wink


User currently offlineConcorde001 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 1230 posts, RR: 3
Reply 20, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 5257 times:

Just read that world casino giants Harrah's Entertainment and Las Vegas Sands (both headquartered in LAS) are eyeing and bidding for a multi-million pound contract to build and operate Manchester's and Britain's first Supercasino! This might be good news for more flights to LAS from MAN, especially business travel, especially considering the amounts of money each company is looking to spend:

Sands it looking at spending £390 million (about $700 million) developing Manchester and Hurrah's about half that amount.

Source: Sky News

This might be good news for BMI who fly MAN-LAS thrice weekly.


User currently offlineJonnyWishbone From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2007, 143 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 5248 times:

Knowing BMI, they'll probably drop the route now, leaving it to Globespan or something!!!

User currently offlineOly720man From United Kingdom, joined May 2004, 6688 posts, RR: 11
Reply 22, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 5241 times:

Quoting Concorde001 (Reply 20):
This might be good news for more flights to LAS from MAN, especially business travel, especially considering the amounts of money each company is looking to spend:

I can't see it making a lot of difference. One casino in Manchester is hardly likely to increase traffic to Las Vegas.

I don't frequent casinos so I don't have a feel for the clientele, but I'm not even sure the major gamblers Europe/Middle East will be beating a path to the NW of England when there are probably better and more exclusive establishments in other major cities around Europe. Otherwise is one big casino going to be a big tourist draw?



wheat and dairy can screw up your brain
User currently offlineHumberside From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2005, 4917 posts, RR: 4
Reply 23, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 5215 times:

Quoting Concorde001 (Reply 19):
For example, if Edinburgh and the Lothians were granted the type of power enjoyed by the Greater London Authority (arguably even more powers, the like of which London is currently demanding from the Government), which would allow full responsibility for economic development, transport etc, this part of eastern Scotland would be revolutionised. Just imagine if Glasgow, Manchester and Lancashire, York and Yorkshire, Bristol and Cardiff with similar powers within a federal structure...Britain would be a much better place, economically, politically and above all and most importantly, in terms of aviation!!!!!

It might happen - we know regional asemblies (sadly IMO) didn't go down well but the latest idea is city regions - possibly even with 'super councils' covering them. Would be similar to the Greater London Authority. It just talk but in an few years time we could get something like you are suggesting



Visit the Air Humberside Website and Forum
User currently offlineConcorde001 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 1230 posts, RR: 3
Reply 24, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 5179 times:

Quoting JonnyWishbone (Reply 21):
Knowing BMI, they'll probably drop the route now, leaving it to Globespan or something!!!

 rotfl 

Quoting Oly720man (Reply 22):
I can't see it making a lot of difference. One casino in Manchester is hardly likely to increase traffic to Las Vegas.

I don't frequent casinos so I don't have a feel for the clientele, but I'm not even sure the major gamblers Europe/Middle East will be beating a path to the NW of England when there are probably better and more exclusive establishments in other major cities around Europe. Otherwise is one big casino going to be a big tourist draw?

Possibly, but depending on the size of the development (£390 million is alot of money), you never know. If I'm not mistaken, Manchester's super casino complex will be one of the largest in Europe, so the city may draw alot of visitors from within the UK and Europe. Coupled with the amazing Media City UK complex, there could be a boost to Manchester's air travel market.

Quoting Humberside (Reply 23):
It might happen - we know regional asemblies (sadly IMO) didn't go down well but the latest idea is city regions - possibly even with 'super councils' covering them. Would be similar to the Greater London Authority. It just talk but in an few years time we could get something like you are suggesting

I think regional assemblies were a bad idea. The government just decided to merge together historical areas of Britain into boring and artificial areas such as 'The North East' and gave them limited powers! Something better would have been the county of York as a federal state/county, along with Lancashire, Northumberland etc! These areas have a strong identity, culture and long history.
In Britain we need uniformity of powers, not the current dogs' dinner of a constitutional arrangement where important questions such as the West Lothian remain unanswered and the potential of our country to be even more economically and culturally developed being lost and not being realised. Not to mention the fact that our country may be torn apart!


25 Humberside : Problem is historical boundaries aren't always the most suitable now,. Take Middlesborough. Historically part of Yorkshire but it makes for sense to
26 Stirling : My comment was in an aviation context....off course, being an island, ports of entry/departure ringed the nation. But it was there nonetheless: provi
27 Philb : I think the term "lions share" is debateable. In the 1960s and 1970s yes, but from the 1980s, the balance has been constantly moving in favour of pro
28 GayrugbyMAN : I would say it already is. I think by 2010 MAN will certainly have services to PEK, LAX, BKK, BOM, SVO, PVG, KUL, SYD, LOS and AKL, all essential for
29 Philb : Between 15 and 25 years ago it had services to LAX, BOM, SVO, KUL and SYD but either commercial factors or lack of real commitment caused them to fai
30 GayrugbyMAN : But we now know that the key to all this is the introduction of aircraft such as the 787. Plus many of those services were merely add-ons to LHR servi
31 Philb : That's not totally true. SVO was direct with Aeroflot and had connections to India and BKK, LAX was originally direct with Laker and later operated 9
32 JonnyWishbone : Beast of a reply Phil.... As far as AI are concerned, would you want to go to DEL via FCO and I think DXB... No wonder it was doomed - Only Biman woul
33 Philb : Once again the excuse was lack of equipment. AI wanted to serve both but could not fill a 747 to either nor had they enough A310s to serve both separ
34 Post contains images Stirling : I hope. What if the routes to LAX, BOM, KUL, and SYD were operated back then by a 787, would it have made a difference? (I left out SVO since it is a
35 LAXdude1023 : Out of Curiosity, why would BMI fly MAN-LAS as opposed to MAN-LAX? It doesnt really make sense to me.
36 GayrugbyMAN : Because they are heavily linked in with holiday companues such as Virgin Holidays and Kuoni to offer package holidays to Las Vegas for casino-hungry
37 David_itl : Interestingly enough, Jetstar is apparently keen to start MAN ops to SYD as and when they get their 787s; if MAN-Australia is allegedly worth in exce
38 JonnyWishbone : BMI would be the 'obvoius' choice, were their management capable of making a sensible decision! However, timing is of the essence... By letting Globes
39 Post contains images Cornish : "Apparently" being what source exactly? While the 787 is shaping up to be an excellent aircraft, I'm not convinced that Australia to somewhere as far
40 Philb : That's an excellent and very realistic summation
41 MainMAN : This is an excellent thread, but it doesn't take into consideration the urban areas surrounding Manchester. The premise of 'The Northern Way' is that
42 Cornish : Maybe, but it still has a long way to go. MUC's catchment area is right at the top level of the EU tree economically. And remember this is while Germ
43 Post contains images Philb : Of course what many people don't realise is that, for over 40 years now, the population within a 75 mile radius of Manchester has been within a quarte
44 Cornish : Very true Phil, but surely the real problem is the lack of high yield passengers from elsewhere flying INTO MAN. That is one advantage LON certainly
45 Post contains images Cornish : Ah now that I doubt - the Cheshire set, along with the Essex set like to flaunt their wealth, no matter in how much dubious taste, more than anyone e
46 Philb : Possibly true!! That's brought something back to me. In the late 1960s I was the Northern Area rep for a company based in Reading. The MD was a certa
47 RyanairGuru : "True, and as I periodically say on here, MAN is a remarkable regional EU airport by way of the sheer variety of its established long-haul links. With
48 JonnyWishbone : There are some great answers on this thread and to add my two penneth as a 'tight fisted' northerner, a company director that travels worldwide in J c
49 Cornish : Easy to say, but if the market for a high end product had that much potential, there are enough enlightened major airlines out there to fly it. Lets
50 JonnyWishbone : Well Cornish... It IS a shame there aren't more like me and I DO suppose i'll have to live with what we have! However, your comment that Saudi is maki
51 Cornish : No it isn't - as i've seen figures behind the scenes on these - nothing i can divulge of course but you'll have to trust me on it. However do bear in
52 JonnyWishbone : Fair do Cornish, can't argue with your 'insider information' - but there must be a market for Kendal Mint Cake in Antigua to get those MAN figures up
53 Post contains images Cornish : Thanks. Mind you these are bmi figures and prices we are talking about here. Logic and common sense need not come into it
54 JonnyWishbone : Indeed... You never know, by the end of the year, they'll have turned that Arkefly 767 into a KLM style Combi with 12 passengers and 500,000 liters of
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