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Frontier Adds Cabo Focus, Beating WN, New Gates  
User currently offlineAirFrnt From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 2825 posts, RR: 42
Posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 5694 times:

F9 had a lot of interesting little niblets of news come out:
http://www.denverpost.com/search/ci_5138940

Quote:

Frontier Airlines says it is establishing Cabo San Lucas as its second focus city, with service from five cities in March, as it expands its presence in Mexico. Cancún is its other focus city.

The new focus on Cabo is part of an ongoing strategy to diversify beyond Denver, as pressure from Dallas-based Southwest Airlines hurts Denver-based Frontier.

By March 2008, Mexico flight capacity will make up 18 percent of Frontier's total flight capacity during peak season.

From: http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drm.../0,2777,DRMN_23912_5322558,00.html

Quote:

Frontier Airlines has taken a financial hit battling Southwest Airlines in Denver but is filling more seats on flights where the two carriers compete head-to- head, a company executive said Thursday.

"Southwest in every market with the exception of Houston is doing very, very poorly in load factors relative with Frontier Airlines," said Paul Tate, Frontier's chief financial officer. "It appears that this differential is increasing. In other words, their load factors are deteriorating relative to ours."

From: http://www.usatoday.com/travel/fligh...-02-04-check-in-toronto-usat_x.htm

Quote:

Denver International and Frontier Airlines are working on a plan to expand a regional jet facility on Concourse A.

The Denver-based carrier needs more space for its new subsidiary, Lynx Aviation, which will begin flying this summer in Colorado and Wyoming (and possibly other destinations) with 10 turboprop planes.

Officials haven't determined the scope of expansion, says Joe Hodas, a Frontier spokesman. Until then, Frontier will deal with its growth by taking over six gates being abandoned by United on Concourse A, giving Frontier a total of 23 by May 1.


43 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17369 posts, RR: 46
Reply 1, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 5631 times:

Quoting AirFrnt (Thread starter):
Southwest in every market with the exception of Houston is doing very, very poorly in load factors relative with Frontier Airlines

Idunno if I'd say *that*...they're about a few pts behind on most routes with the exception of the routes started in August (MCO(!!!), MCI, and BNA) which seem to be surprisingly thin. Then again F9 runs a hub in DEN so they should have a higher load factor than WN anyway.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 962 posts, RR: 51
Reply 2, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 5580 times:

Quoting AirFrnt (Thread starter):
Frontier Airlines has taken a financial hit battling Southwest Airlines in Denver but is filling more seats on flights where the two carriers compete head-to- head, a company executive said Thursday.

"Southwest in every market with the exception of Houston is doing very, very poorly in load factors relative with Frontier Airlines," said Paul Tate, Frontier's chief financial officer. "It appears that this differential is increasing. In other words, their load factors are deteriorating relative to ours."

I don't think I am going to get my WN financial news from an F9 executive. All indications are that WN is doing very well in DEN and they are looking to expand their presence.

I would expect F9 to have higher LF (if for no other reason than being an incumbent in DEN), but I seriously doubt WN's DEN operations are "deteriorating."


User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25015 posts, RR: 85
Reply 3, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 5552 times:
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Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 2):
I don't think I am going to get my WN financial news from an F9 executive.

It would be a curious thing to say if it did not have some basis of truth. It was said to numerous airline analysts::

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drm.../0,2777,DRMN_23912_5322558,00.html

The carrier's load factor between Denver and Las Vegas in October, for instance, was 83 percent, while Southwest's was 59 percent, according to Frontier's data.

http://www.denverpost.com/search/ci_5138940

In October 2006, for example, Frontier's flights to Chicago Midway were 75 percent full, while Southwest's were 57 percent full.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineSocalfive From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 5491 times:

Frontier is, was and forever will remain "Denver's Hometown Airline". I'll bet that overall they exceed UA as well.

User currently offlineJuventus From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 2835 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 5437 times:

Quoting Socalfive (Reply 4):
Frontier is, was and forever will remain "Denver's Hometown Airline". I'll bet that overall they exceed UA as well.

I agree with Denver's loyalty to Frontier over Southwest. Not sure about the second part of your opinion.


User currently offlineAndesSMF From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 5430 times:

Quoting Socalfive (Reply 4):
Frontier is, was and forever will remain "Denver's Hometown Airline".

Yep!

I like the Los Cabos focus, especially for the people in the West US. I have heard from some that they like the fact that they can get on an airplane in the morning and be in Los Cabos in the early afternoon, essentially extending your vacation with a short travel schedule.


User currently offlineATLTraveler From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 44 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 5404 times:

Could Frontier fly from Atlanta to Cancun? At present only US Airline(Delta) flies that route. I think Airtran has the authority but does not use it. A little competition would do wonders for us in the area...

User currently offlineEXAAUADL From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 5376 times:

Quoting Socalfive (Reply 4):
Frontier is, was and forever will remain "Denver's Hometown Airline". I'll bet that overall they exceed UA as well.

Yup.....In MCI and OMA F9 has larger share on the local market than does UA...when talking about DEN originating pax, the gap is even larger.


User currently offlineAirplaneBoy From United States of America, joined May 2004, 560 posts, RR: 10
Reply 9, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 5290 times:

Although airlines compete for market share, I wouldn't necessarily call one's performance over another as "beating" them (I see your point though  Smile).

Kudos to F9Big grin They certainly are expanding Mexico. I've worked a couple of LAX-SJD turns, which were full in both directions.

Cheers!


User currently offlineDeltaDAWG From United States of America, joined May 2006, 776 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 5241 times:

Quoting ATLTraveler (Reply 7):
Could Frontier fly from Atlanta to Cancun? At present only US Airline(Delta) flies that route. I think Airtran has the authority but does not use it. A little competition would do wonders for us in the area...

FL announced plans shortly before Hurricane Wilma but then obviously stopped the plans after seeing the damage.

They still do have the authority but have not exercised it from what I understand. There are several city pairs that would seemingly go good with CUN from which FL flys out of such as ATL, MCO, MDW, BWI and so forth. FL could work with F9 on combining some South of the Border flights and put some real pressure on DL, CO and AA



GO Dawgs, Sic' em, woof woof woof
User currently offlineATLTraveler From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 44 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 5223 times:

Delta is running three direct flights on most days, so there is enough demand. Cancun has come back strong after Wilma. Most have the hotels have finished rebuilding and a lot of new ones have come online. Fares approx. ~ 350 with advance notice.

User currently offlineSANFan From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 5367 posts, RR: 12
Reply 12, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 5052 times:

Since WN started in DEN, they have increased capacity on their 3 starting routes - LAS, PHX and MDW - and it looks like they may have gone a little overboard. Their participation, along with F9 and UA, made for a lot of capacity on those 3 routes.

WN started just over a year ago (1/3/06) with 4 flights each to PHX and MDW, and 5 to LAS. Their 1/11/07 schedule is 6 to PHX, 5 to MDW, and 7 to LAS. If we soon see n/s WN flights from DEN to the West Coast, I wouldn't be surprised to see one of the LAS and PHX flights disappear.

I never expected it would be easy for WN to set up in DEN but then they are still fairly new and they have, after all, gone from 13 to 33 flights in one year.

F9 is definitely the Hometown Airline for DEN and I would expect natives to prefer to fly them first. However, the people in PHX, for example, might very well fly WN first and they help fill the same planes. In other words, DEN is probably the destination half the time instead of the origin.

I'm waiting anxiously to see WN's summer schedule (eff. 5/11) probably coming out later this week; could have some interesting new routes...

Overall, I would pretty much have to agree with you, Dfw':

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 2):
I don't think I am going to get my WN financial news from an F9 executive. All indications are that WN is doing very well in DEN and they are looking to expand their presence.

bb


User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26376 posts, RR: 76
Reply 13, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 5023 times:

Quoting AirFrnt (Thread starter):
"Southwest in every market with the exception of Houston is doing very, very poorly in load factors relative with Frontier Airlines," said Paul Tate, Frontier's chief financial officer. "It appears that this differential is increasing. In other words, their load factors are deteriorating relative to ours."

Cute shot that seems aimed at people who have no idea how things work in the industry. WN consistantly has among the lightest factors in the industry, but more than make up for it with their efficient operation and the highest economy class yield because of their bullet proof fare structure.



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineManny From United States of America, joined Sep 2006, 472 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 4986 times:

F9 has a much better inflight product that WN.

So i am not surprised head to head all other factors being the same F9 is gaining an advantage.

It is Denver's hometown airline. And the only one!


User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25015 posts, RR: 85
Reply 15, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 4984 times:
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Quoting SANFan (Reply 12):
Overall, I would pretty much have to agree with you, Dfw':

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 2):I don't think I am going to get my WN financial news from an F9 executive. All indications are that WN is doing very well in DEN and they are looking to expand their presence.

So you are saying that the statements and the publicly stated load factor are incorrect - that the CFO of a publicly traded company is deliberately misleading the investment community7

Interesting.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineSANFan From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 5367 posts, RR: 12
Reply 16, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 4912 times:

Quoting Mariner (Reply 15):
So you are saying that the statements and the publicly stated load factor are incorrect - that the CFO of a publicly traded company is deliberately misleading the investment community7

It certainly wouldn't be without precedence for the CFO of a large, successful company to selectively site facts that support his or her views and/or statements.

I wouldn't be surprised if Gary Kelly could find one or two routes, for one month, over a one year period, that showed WN outperforming F9.

And there certainly is nothing extraordinary about the executive of one airline taking a swipe at the competition. That's in the job description!

I don't think either carrier is leaving DEN. I think it's business as usual and both cx will talk and both will continue to do well and grow!

bb


User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25015 posts, RR: 85
Reply 17, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 4830 times:
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Quoting SANFan (Reply 16):
I wouldn't be surprised if Gary Kelly could find one or two routes, for one month, over a one year period, that showed WN outperforming F9.

I have no doubt that Mr. Kelly could. Several posters here did, in the early days.

I am not sure why this would bring Mr. Tate's statements into question. He talked about a trend, and I guess anyone - especially airline anaylsts - can check his statements with the T100's?

Quoting SANFan (Reply 16):
I don't think either carrier is leaving DEN.

I don't think anyone has suggested that they would.

A little rationalization might not go astray. To this uninformed eye, Southwest's 9 x daily DEN-MCI seems rather a lot.

mariner

[Edited 2007-02-07 01:51:57]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlineDrerx7 From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5163 posts, RR: 8
Reply 18, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 4768 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 1):
Quoting AirFrnt (Thread starter):
Southwest in every market with the exception of Houston is doing very, very poorly in load factors relative with Frontier Airlines

Kind of a side note but DEN is a huge market from Houston--I believe in terms of revenue its like third or fourth behind LAX, NYC, and ORD. Continental has a couple of 757s with at least one being a 753, F9 has 319s and a 318, WN has its 737s, and UA will be putting a 757 on the route.



Third Coast born, means I'm Texas raised
User currently offlineCaspian27 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 381 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 4670 times:

As a pilot who lives in Denver and commutes to work I routinely fly on all 3 airlines being discussed here: F9, UA & WN.

From my personal experience, the WN flights that I have been on in the past 4-5 months have had pretty light loads. I used to routinely fly WN flight 350 DEN-MCI, and there were generally about 20-30 pax. This flight left at 6:50am, and a competing F9 flight left at 7:05am. The times that I flew Frontier the plane was generally about 2/3 full. I am fairly certain that this WN flight number doesn't exist in DEN anymore (possibly due to low loads?), and without looking up their flight times I think their first flight to MCI is sometime mid-morning now.

I mostly fly UA into DEN, and their loads on the flights I've been on have been pretty high also. Several times I've received the last seat on the plane, or had to sit in the jumpseat.

From my own experience the article seems to be correct.



Meanwhile, somewhere 35,000 ft above your head...
User currently offlineScottB From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 6713 posts, RR: 32
Reply 20, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 4607 times:

Quoting Mariner (Reply 17):
To this uninformed eye, Southwest's 9 x daily DEN-MCI seems rather a lot.

Nine daily? More like four.

But the analyst presentation is an interesting listen. Paul Tate talks an awful lot about Southwest, and it's pretty clear that WN's entry into DEN is helping to drive some of their decisions.


User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25015 posts, RR: 85
Reply 21, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 4552 times:
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Quoting ScottB (Reply 20):
Nine daily? More like four.

I don't check that often - a couple of months ago it was more. Maybe they are rationalizing. That's good.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 20):
Paul Tate talks an awful lot about Southwest.

Usually 'coz he gets asked. It seems to be all analysts want to know.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 20):
it's pretty clear that WN's entry into DEN is helping to drive some of their decisions.

I would hope they are cognizant of all their competition, especially United.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineMtnWest1979 From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 2435 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 4410 times:
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Quoting Mariner (Reply 21):
Quoting ScottB (Reply 20):
Nine daily? More like four.

I don't check that often - a couple of months ago it was more. Maybe they are rationalizing. That's good.

Well, it has never been near 9/day. Looking at 10/29/06 timetable,there were 4 flights Su-Fr, and four Sat only flights.
Basically the same now, but different op days.



"If it ain't broke, don't fix it!"
User currently offlineAirFrnt From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 2825 posts, RR: 42
Reply 23, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 4395 times:

I do think that WN is finding DEN a bit harder of a nut to crack then they expected. F9 does seem to be holding out well, but they have had to pour it on advertising wise, and the painful blizzards really cost them last month.

User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25015 posts, RR: 85
Reply 24, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 4312 times:
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Quoting MtnWest1979 (Reply 22):
Looking at 10/29/06 timetable,there were 4 flights Su-Fr, and four Sat only flights.

My mis-reading, then. Sorry.

mariner



aeternum nauta
25 Coa747 : All this talk about Frontier and jetBlue with their live TV. But I doubt that this amenity sells a lot of tickets. In the end most people care how muc
26 ORDagent : Actually I have clients that will pay a premium to book Hertz as the nav system is the best in the industry. I also have DEN based clients that do in
27 Floridaflyboy : Agreed. I like WN, but if I had the choice between WN or F9 at a similar pirce on the same route, I would always go with F9. Denver is a very loyal c
28 Post contains links Phxplanes : I was looking through the F9 website and noticed on the fleet page they have a link a.net, dont no if anyone else new this but I thought it was kind o
29 DeltaDAWG : Could it be that in the back of a lot of Denver residents mind is that WN left once and they may do it again? Somewhat surprising to see a lot of the
30 Post contains images F9Animal : But, WN is still relatively new to the market. Their load factors will eventually increase, and F9 needs to be aware of that. In the same regards, th
31 Coa747 : I personally like to disconnect when I fly. I am tied to my blackberry, cell phone etc when on the ground it is nice to unplug and not worry about wor
32 Chase : I think it's nice that F9 has added focus cities in CUN and Cabo. However, they still need an additional hub or focus city within the US. If I buy a t
33 Mariner : That was certainly true of the first three or four months of Southwest at DEN - Southwest's load factors were better than the ones quoted, as several
34 GentFromAlaska : I think they call this strategy or is it tactics.
35 Pdxcof9 : Come on!!! Do a PDX-CUN!!! Once or twice a week could do it!!! Alaska started 2 new routes to mexico. And MX does the daily to GDL. CUN would be a per
36 Bicoastal : I heard a Frontier ad on the radio promoting SAN-CUN? First time I've ever heard a Frontier ad. Has the route not been doing well and that's why they'
37 Manny : Travelers do not think that far back in the past. Its more about the here and now. Different situation. F9 did not have to start a LCC like US did, t
38 ORDagent : I realize this is an aviation forum however I get lost going around the block and neverlost has saved me numerous times. BACK ON TOPIC F9 has proven
39 Post contains links Laxintl : Southwest today announced a couple more Denver flights starting in May. http://biz.yahoo.com/bizj/070208/1415113.html?.v=1 DEN-TPA is a new route, whi
40 Post contains images Mariner : Supposedly, H.M Queen Elizabeth was shown the movie "The Queen" - which was supposed to be an attack on her. When asked what she thought about it, sh
41 Rampart : I'm an A.net member and former Colorado resident, and even I have to be reminded that WN once served Denver. Those less informed probably wouldn't ha
42 Post contains links ScottB : The January traffic release, at http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/070206/latu138.html?.v=36 , does seem to bear this out. Management notes that the Decembe
43 Mariner : I'm sure you may be right, Scott - except I thought they'd been pricing like that since Day 1 of Southwest. The scheduling does not appear to have ch
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