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PDX Makes Move To Lengthen RWY 10L/28R  
User currently offlineKELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 6267 posts, RR: 4
Posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 3197 times:

Hi,

Saw this on the local news this morning (KGW), however no article to link to exists on their website.

PDX is inviting public comments on their plans to extend runway 10L/28R. This is in anticipation of a major resurfacing for runway 10R/28L in 2011, so that the airport will still be usable by heavies.

Unfortunately, this being Portland, I predict that the NIMBY's will be heard, quite loudly, on this one...

Also wondering which direction they are planning to expand in? Towards I-205 would seem to put aircraft even lower over the Glenn Jackson bridge and the flyover from I-205 northbound onto Airport Way...doesn't the Columbia River block expansion on the other end of the runway?
EDIT: Wouldn't expansion towards the Columbia side also affect GA traffic at VUO (Pearson Airpark) by putting airliners even lower over Pearson?

[Edited 2007-02-08 21:09:40]


Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
36 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineATCGOD From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 661 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 3163 times:

Quoting KELPkid (Thread starter):
EDIT: Wouldn't expansion towards the Columbia side also affect GA traffic at VUO (Pearson Airpark) by putting airliners even lower over Pearson?

Yes, those airliners fly over Pearson at about 1000'. It's already a requirement to call PDX tower before departing Pearson.

Quoting KELPkid (Thread starter):
Also wondering which direction they are planning to expand in? Towards I-205 would seem to put aircraft even lower over the Glenn Jackson bridge and the flyover from I-205 northbound onto Airport Way...doesn't the Columbia River block expansion on the other end of the runway?

My initial thoughts when I saw this was that there really is not room for expansion for that runway. The river (and the road for that matter) jut back to the south not long after the end of 28R. The bridge already sees some pretty low approaches and Marine Drive would inhibit expansion on that end too. It'll be interesting.


User currently offlineChrisNH From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 4013 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 3142 times:

I'm sure the NIMBY's will find some spotted Newt or a turtle they can use to grind the whole idea to a screeching halt.

User currently offlineJetboy319 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 270 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 3104 times:

If you go to flypdx.com and download the master plan (pdf document) you will see that there is indeed room to expand 10L/28R on the west end. Also, the website itself has a page dedicated to the expansion of 10L/28R and the resurfacing of 10R/28L.

User currently offlineATCGOD From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 661 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 3082 times:

Quoting Jetboy319 (Reply 3):
If you go to flypdx.com and download the master plan (pdf document) you will see that there is indeed room to expand 10L/28R on the west end. Also, the website itself has a page dedicated to the expansion of 10L/28R and the resurfacing of 10R/28L.

Thanks for the link Jetboy. The expansion won't happen until 2009/2010...so this is still a ways off.


User currently offlineHPRamper From United States of America, joined May 2005, 3970 posts, RR: 8
Reply 5, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 3011 times:

This has been in the works in one way or another for years...but I hope they go through with it. I have seen heavies use the north runway, but it's not common.

User currently offlineS12PPL From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 2987 times:

The Port has been trying to expand or add a runway for years, but they keep getting blocked at every turn. As it is, departing traffic from 10R/L have to make a hard left after departure to fly up the Columbia at night to reduce noise over neighborhoods. It's ridiculous how some people in Portland from miles away from the airport whine and complain about the noise.

PDX is getting to a point where they are going to either need to build another terminal building, or find some way to expand the C/D terminals. They wanted to add a third 28/10 runway I thought, but a golf course is in the way. Now that the Air Guard unit at PDX is so much smaller, perhaps they could re-locate their ramp and hangars to the west side of the field, and build a new terminal building where they currently are? Then they could dedicate most of terminal D to international service, and WN and/or AS could move to the new one?


User currently offlinePHLstudent From United States of America, joined May 2006, 498 posts, RR: 7
Reply 7, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 2969 times:

not to get off topic, but I will be flying through PDX on my way to YVR in about 3 months. Does anyone know what the customs situation is like for travel to and from canada? and is PDX fast or slow for that? I will be connecting to an air canada flight going and then a United flight coming back. Thanks!

User currently offlineEVA777SEA From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 473 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 2926 times:

Quoting S12PPL (Reply 6):
PDX is getting to a point where they are going to either need to build another terminal building, or find some way to expand the C/D terminals.



I don't think they need more gates right now.


User currently offlineCirrusDriver From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 141 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 2916 times:

Quoting PHLstudent (Reply 7):
not to get off topic, but I will be flying through PDX on my way to YVR in about 3 months. Does anyone know what the customs situation is like for travel to and from canada? and is PDX fast or slow for that? I will be connecting to an air canada flight going and then a United flight coming back. Thanks!

You clear customs in YVR going in both directions.


User currently offlineLHPDX From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 355 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 2838 times:

They are planning to expand 28R/10L on both ends................This will be sweet for spotters.................

User currently offlineBlatantEcho From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 1896 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 2820 times:

this has been in the master plan for a while now. I doubt the airport needs a 3rd parallel runway at this point. 10-15years? maybe

If they don't get the short runway extended, there's going to be big trouble getting the longhaul planes up and out.



They're not handing trophies out today
User currently offlineHPRamper From United States of America, joined May 2005, 3970 posts, RR: 8
Reply 12, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 2799 times:

Quoting S12PPL (Reply 6):
PDX is getting to a point where they are going to either need to build another terminal building, or find some way to expand the C/D terminals.



Quoting EVA777SEA (Reply 8):
I don't think they need more gates right now.

I agree with EVA777SEA, there is plenty of room on both C and D. D hasn't been at capacity since Delta pulled down the hub, and I don't know if C ever has been. C at the moment has 4 (I believe) gates that are Port-controlled and used perhaps once or twice a day, and to park RON aircraft. D also has a few. Not to mention the leased gates are very lightly utilized in some cases. For instance, our second gate, C-19, which we use maybe twice a day and in case of diversions.

Quoting BlatantEcho (Reply 11):
I doubt the airport needs a 3rd parallel runway at this point.

Agreed. Especially when 28R-10L is extended to split heavy traffic, I don't see the relatively slow growth at PDX causing any kind of problem for many years to come.


User currently offlineATCGOD From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 661 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 2688 times:

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 5):
I have seen heavies use the north runway, but it's not common.

Just about every heavy could land on 10L/28R...the problem is taking off again fully loaded.


User currently offlineHPRamper From United States of America, joined May 2005, 3970 posts, RR: 8
Reply 14, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 2627 times:

Quoting ATCGOD (Reply 13):
Just about every heavy could land on 10L/28R...the problem is taking off again fully loaded.

When we were on the D concourse it was common to see the Delta 763s take off on 10L-28R. Occasionally a 747 would use it, but I'm assuming empty or with a very light load.


User currently offlineS12PPL From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 2615 times:

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 14):
When we were on the D concourse it was common to see the Delta 763s take off on 10L-28R. Occasionally a 747 would use it, but I'm assuming empty or with a very light load.

When I flew PDX-ATL in June 2003 on a Delta 763, we took off from 28R, and were off the ground by the first UA gate. Then again...we were only going to ATL  Smile

And, in '96 when we flew PDX-HNL on HA in the DC-10...I could have sworn we took off from 10L...But I was 12 at the time, so I could be wrong.


User currently offlinePavlovsDog From Norway, joined Sep 2005, 656 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 2569 times:

Quoting ChrisNH (Reply 2):
I'm sure the NIMBY's will find some spotted Newt or a turtle they can use to grind the whole idea to a screeching halt.

I think a lot NIMBY opposition to PDX is to the cross runway which brings a lot of noisy general aviation traffic over NE Portland at low elevation. Extending an existing runway won't change things a whole lot for most people.

Environmental opposition is another issue. People on the left have felt so disempowered for so long they're willing to raise hell over relatively minor issues like extending a runway. The fact that aviation is a very polluting form of transportation and probable contributor to global warming can only add fuel to the fire.


User currently offlineATCGOD From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 661 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 2523 times:

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 14):
When we were on the D concourse it was common to see the Delta 763s take off on 10L-28R. Occasionally a 747 would use it, but I'm assuming empty or with a very light load.

When Delta used to fly the MD-11's into PDX, they used to land on 10L all the time. I'm quite certain most of the smaller heavy's (A330, B767) could land and depart just about fully loaded on that runway right now. The main concern would have to be LH's A340 (and sometimes B744), and the UPS heavys that frequent PDX. I'm not sure what other heavys use PDX other than the NWA A330. 8000' is still quite a long runway.


User currently offline11Bravo From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 1717 posts, RR: 10
Reply 18, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 2509 times:

Quoting PavlovsDog (Reply 16):
Environmental opposition is another issue. People on the left have felt so disempowered for so long they're willing to raise hell over relatively minor issues like extending a runway. The fact that aviation is a very polluting form of transportation and probable contributor to global warming can only add fuel to the fire.

I think your disenfranchised eco-nut conspiracy is off the mark. Most of it is probably much simpler than that.

Some people just don't like the noise. I know several people who live near PDX. None of them like the noise. None of them are environmentalists.

I'm perfectly content to have jets fly over my house, and that's probably true of the vast majority of people on this site, but the people who don't care for it, and I suspect that's a lot of people, have every right in the world to express thier opposition to airport expansion.



WhaleJets Rule!
User currently offlineKELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 6267 posts, RR: 4
Reply 19, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 2489 times:

Quoting ATCGOD (Reply 17):
I'm not sure what other heavys use PDX other than the NWA A330. 8000' is still quite a long runway.

FX MD-11's, KE Cargo 747's, UPS sends heavies in frequently too...oh yeah, and DL and HA send 767's up this way too, although DL's 767 flight to SLC is probably pretty lightly loaded...I had to hold short for that one (DL) one day when I was trying to depart in the Cessna and they were landing on 28R  Wink



Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
User currently offlineJetboy319 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 270 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 2396 times:

Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 18):
Some people just don't like the noise. I know several people who live near PDX. None of them like the noise. None of them are environmentalists

I'm willing to venture a guess and say the majority of these people moved here AFTER the airport became a major air hub for Portland/Vancouver.  Smile


User currently offlineLHPDX From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 355 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 2371 times:

I really do not think PDX will have a serious problem with neighbors and environmentalist when they do lengthen 10L/28R runway because the flight patterns and noise level with not change(Only during runway closures)..However, if the third runways ever come to fruition which will probably be decades away, that will be a whole other situations...As far as airport expansion occuring, the second garage will be under construction soon, Concouse D is getting a makeover, a new bagga system is being installed to remove those huge dinosaur machines out of the main terminal and Concourse D, E will be extended within the next 10 years(adding 7-8 gates)..After that it will be a while before we seen any more major airport construction at PDX for along time.....

User currently offlineATCGOD From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 661 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 2348 times:

Quoting Jetboy319 (Reply 20):
I'm willing to venture a guess and say the majority of these people moved here AFTER the airport became a major air hub for Portland/Vancouver.

Well...a classic example of this is Dulles and Denver airports. Dulles was built in BFE (and Denver too) to be out of the way of the main cities it served so there would be no noise complaints. Sure enough though, people that worked at the airport wanted to be close, which meant people had to serve them in one way or another. Bam! You've got people that don't like the noise and they have the problem all over again. You just can't win with those people.


User currently offlineCschleic From United States of America, joined Feb 2002, 1228 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 2325 times:

Quoting Jetboy319 (Reply 20):
I'm willing to venture a guess and say the majority of these people moved here AFTER the airport became a major air hub for Portland/Vancouver

Maybe, maybe not. Some of the neighborhoods south of the airport have been there a long, long time.

Quoting S12PPL (Reply 6):
The Port has been trying to expand or add a runway for years, but they keep getting blocked at every turn. As it is, departing traffic from 10R/L have to make a hard left after departure to fly up the Columbia at night to reduce noise over neighborhoods. It's ridiculous how some people in Portland from miles away from the airport whine and complain about the noise.

PDX is getting to a point where they are going to either need to build another terminal building, or find some way to expand the C/D terminals. They wanted to add a third 28/10 runway I thought, but a golf course is in the way. Now that the Air Guard unit at PDX is so much smaller, perhaps they could re-locate their ramp and hangars to the west side of the field, and build a new terminal building where they currently are? Then they could dedicate most of terminal D to international service, and WN and/or AS could move to the new one?

Sort of. Anyone remember back to pre-9/11 and all the public meetings about the two options for the terminal expansion, which also involved a third runway? The options were a satellite terminal west of the existing terminal, or a full second terminal replacing the air guard and golf course area, with the third runway south of that. The Delta scale-back and 9/11 ended all that. Recall that the expanded C terminal - with all its restaurants, retail and public areas - had it's grand opening only a couple of days before 9/11. Now there are several unused gates. I doubt more gates are needed at this time. More parking, yes. But a major issue with the option of a new south terminal was the air guard, golf course and cargo areas in the way.


The current noise issue is with feeder aircraft (FedEx Cessnas, etc.) using the north-south runway, generally landing from the south, right over a lot of residential area.

Like someone said above, check out flypdx.com, or even sign up for email notices. There have been all kinds of notifications and Citizens Noise Advisory Committee (yes, there is one) meetings about upcoming runway work.


User currently offlineChugach From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 1041 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 2293 times:

I really don't see how PDX needs a third parallel runway. Seems like there's quite a few better ways to spend that money. Extending the north runway should provide the airport with enough runway capacity for years to come. I could maybe see extending concourse E due to the amount of UA RON's, but C and D both have quite a few gates that are either empty or only used sparingly.


GO ROCKETS
25 EVA777SEA : Actually Korean Air moved their cargo services up to Seattle. Portland has also seen Air China cargo 747s before too if I remember correctly.
26 Chugach : They still do; I believe it's the only regularly scheduled 747 that PDX sees right now.
27 Post contains images Jetboy319 : There is no question that many of the neighborhoods surrounding the airport have been there a long, long time. The question is, of those neighborhood
28 N174UA : This was part of the original plan when E was built in '91 and opened in '92. There's 5 there now, plus UAX at E6, and the idea was to add 4-5 more.
29 HPRamper : There has been some talk about razing the former Air Reserve base and hangars to put in this third runway. I still think there are better ways to uti
30 Jetboy319 : This is a common misconception. The Air Reserve area wouldn't only be used for a third runway, but could potentially be a second terminal/concourse a
31 HPRamper : I've read up on that plan idea, and it just seems so unrealistic. For Oregon to come up with something workable like that is an absolute pipe dream.
32 LHPDX : I think a full extension of the following concourses A,B,D and E with remote stands should cover PDX for many years to come if not decades..Note A and
33 Post contains images Jetboy319 : I agree that a new terminal building where the Air National Guard is currently located is far from reality. However, my point was many people, especia
34 HPRamper : I'll always bet on Southwest to add more frequency and/or destinations. Currently they do not offer any nonstop service to anywhere in Southern Calif
35 Post contains images WesternA318 : Thats why they should build those neighborhoods specifically for the airline spotters to live in, LOL...
36 LHPDX : The Airtrans cargo area will be moved and located in the Southwest corner of the airport property locked in by runway 28L/10R and the crosswind runway
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