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Could Delta Pick Up More Used 757s/767-300s?  
User currently offline1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6632 posts, RR: 2
Posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 5940 times:

As you should know, Delta is acquiring 13 ex-TWA 757s. These are to be used on the lesser Hawaii routes and some third-tier European routes. The used 757 market is hot and could be difficult to come by, especially with P&W engines. Does anyone of any ETOPS-rated P&W-powered 757s available besides the ex-TWA aircraft?

Also, I woudln't rule out if Delta gets some used 767-300ERs. The slots for the 787 are full, and Delta could use more 767s as a stopgap solution. These 767-300ERs could either be used on the ATL-HNL route in domestic configuration to free the 767-400ER for international routes, or Delta could use it on more transatlantic routes. They could also replace Delta's non-ER 767-300s. Since Delta operates both GE and P&W-powered 767s, there isn't much of a problem with engines here, as GE and P&W both make up large portions of the 767 market, while RR's share is much smaller.

What are your thoughts on this?


The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
67 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineOkie73 From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 446 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 5915 times:

Delta is still trying to pick up a couple more of the TWA/AA 757s. As far as used 767s, I have not heard or read a thing about it. But, would not surprise me.

787 slots are taken for some years, but remember many of those slots are taken by leasing companies. I would be surprised if all of those 787s are spoken for.


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23203 posts, RR: 20
Reply 2, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 5608 times:

The 763ER (rightly) remains a popular airplane. Used frames are difficult to come by. What might be more likely (though still probably not going to happen) is actually an order for some new 763ERs. The UPS order breathed some life into the line, and there's no reason Boeing wouldn't do it, especially if it were in conjunction with a 787 order which could not be fulfilled right away.


I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineLitz From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1773 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 5596 times:
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Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 2):
What might be more likely (though still probably not going to happen) is actually an order for some new 763ERs.

And remember, these planes - as new orders - would come available long before any open 787 slots would.

- litz


User currently offlineGatorman96 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 874 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 5582 times:

Is there any way (or reason) Delta would order more 767-400ER's?


Cha brro
User currently offlineOkie73 From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 446 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 5428 times:

Quoting Gatorman96 (Reply 4):
Is there any way (or reason) Delta would order more 767-400ER's?

if Delta were to order an aircraft that big, I think they would go right to the 777.


User currently offlineVictorKilo From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 315 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 5366 times:

On the Speednews website, there are 6 PW-powered 767-300ER aircraft available for sale or lease - 3 currently used by AirCanada, 2 used by Royal Brunei, and one used by Air China. These frames are all 12-16 years old, and still have some life left in them. There are more 767-300ER's available than 777's (the 2 ex-Varig ex-United -200A's), A340's (1 ex-Air Madrid -300 and the 2 AirCanada -500's), A330's (3 ex-Austrian -200's that may be going to TP), or 747-400's (1 ex-United and one South African).

So while I doubt that Delta really needs more 767-300ER's (I would expect United to need them more than Delta), they are relatively more used examples available than other widebody types.


User currently offlineAkjetBlue From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 790 posts, RR: 5
Reply 7, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 5260 times:

Quoting Okie73 (Reply 5):
if Delta were to order an aircraft that big, I think they would go right to the 777.

Thats possible but as I recall there were some problems with the payscales between the 763 and the 772 which is what pushed them into buying the 764. Honestly I've always said that I think that DL could get 5-10 B764s and configure them with a smaller F class and operate them on the Florida and high density runs. The B764 was originally supose to be a replacement for the L10s.

With all the problems of downsizing and recalling I would guess they might go for more 763s or 764s, however with the small number of 772s they own if they want to continue to expand to far out destinations they will need more 772...Time will tell on this one.



Save a horse! Ride a Cowboy!
User currently offlineBucky707 From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 1028 posts, RR: 3
Reply 8, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 5150 times:

Quoting AkjetBlue (Reply 7):
Thats possible but as I recall there were some problems with the payscales between the 763 and the 772 which is what pushed them into buying the 764.

There were no pay issues that pushed them into one aircraft or the other. Some people say, (though I disagree) but some say that there were pay issues that caused Delta to not order all the 777s they really wanted. In fact the 767-400 was ordered before the 777.

The 764 was bought as an L-1011 replacement to be flown on high density domestic routes and to Hawaii. The management team who purchased the 764 never really envisioned sending it on international routes. We finally got in some smart network management folks who immediatley figured out that flying these huge airplanes domestically was killing our yields.


User currently onlineSLCUT2777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 4124 posts, RR: 9
Reply 9, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 4916 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Thread starter):
As you should know, Delta is acquiring 13 ex-TWA 757s. These are to be used on the lesser Hawaii routes and some third-tier European routes. The used 757 market is hot and could be difficult to come by, especially with P&W engines. Does anyone of any ETOPS-rated P&W-powered 757s available besides the ex-TWA aircraft?

Word is they now must compete with FedEx for them since FedEx is going after any RR or P&W powered 752s available. Lets hope they can get these additional 2 birds to do Hawaii from SLC or Europe from JFK rather than some domestic cargo haul from MEM.



DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
User currently offlineWesternA318 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 5713 posts, RR: 24
Reply 10, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 4893 times:

Quoting Okie73 (Reply 5):
if Delta were to order an aircraft that big, I think they would go right to the 777.



Quoting Bucky707 (Reply 8):
The 764 was bought as an L-1011 replacement to be flown on high density domestic routes and to Hawaii. The management team who purchased the 764 never really envisioned sending it on international routes. We finally got in some smart network management folks who immediatley figured out that flying these huge airplanes domestically was killing our yields.

 checkmark  It's about time management in DL sees the 764 as something MORE than a Mainland-HNL or ATL-SLC, ATL-Florida big rig...



Check out my blog at fl310travel.blogspot.com!
User currently offlineLASOctoberB6 From Japan, joined Nov 2006, 2380 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 4893 times:

where exactly would DL just "pick up" more 757s?


[NOT IN SERVICE] {WEStJet}
User currently offlineDAL767400ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 4758 times:

Quoting LASOctoberB6 (Reply 11):
where exactly would DL just "pick up" more 757s?

AA for example, like they already do. There's still 6 planes don't have a new owner yet.


User currently offlineEI321 From Iraq, joined Jul 2009, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 4709 times:

How many 767s & 757s are in storage???

User currently onlineSLCUT2777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 4124 posts, RR: 9
Reply 14, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 4599 times:

Quoting WesternA318 (Reply 10):
Quoting Bucky707 (Reply 8):
The 764 was bought as an L-1011 replacement to be flown on high density domestic routes and to Hawaii. The management team who purchased the 764 never really envisioned sending it on international routes. We finally got in some smart network management folks who immediately figured out that flying these huge airplanes domestically was killing our yields.

 checkmark  It's about time management in DL sees the 764 as something MORE than a Mainland-HNL or ATL-SLC, ATL-Florida big rig...

DL used to use their 763/64ER fleet very inefficiently. I think you can say they are seeking a maximum yield with such a fleet with all the ATL/NYC-JFK-Europe offerings they now have. SLC-HNL is a very good use of the 764ER, but the other two Hawaii routes DL does to OGG and KOA from SLC are best served with an ETOPs 752.
The only correct move the prior management regime at DL made was to move up to the 764ER and the 772ER and dump the tri-stars and MD-11s. I think Grinstein's regime is correct in going after more 752s and the 772LR. The 752 will be the main trans-con a/c for some years to come. It took over the roll the DC-8 had with DL starting in the mid 1980s.



DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
User currently offlineChiGB1973 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 1619 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 4576 times:

Quoting AkjetBlue (Reply 7):
Honestly I've always said that I think that DL could get 5-10 B764s and configure them with a smaller F class and operate them on the Florida and high density runs. The B764 was originally supose to be a replacement for the L10s.

These routes are already fairly low yielding. More seats means even lower yield. DL flying 767 of all series all over the USA caught up with them a few years ago. It is supply and demand.

Maybe DL needs more 757/767 for international flying, some domestic routes and Hawaii, 5-10 764s would certainly not help yields on most domestic routes. I agree, no more 764s, get 772s.

On a side note, I hear BHM will start getting the 752 again.

M


User currently onlineSLCUT2777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 4124 posts, RR: 9
Reply 16, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 4495 times:

Quoting ChiGB1973 (Reply 15):
Maybe DL needs more 757/767 for international flying, some domestic routes and Hawaii, 5-10 764s would certainly not help yields on most domestic routes. I agree, no more 764s, get 772s.

 checkmark  Especially the 772LR, since many of these routes will need the extra lift and range capacity such as ATL-JNB. Even an ATL-PVG route might really need a 773ER.



DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 4288 times:

The 764 is a much lower cost airplane to fly than the 763 because it burns about the same amount of fuel and has similar crew costs - as few as 1 extra flight attendant. The 764 is ideal for ATL and JFK to Europe, including some of DL's European routes from JFK. However, I don't think DL will order the 764 because it will be too dated compared with the 787 by the time new 764s would be retired.

DL needs 777s and not necessarily all 777LRs. There are some routes that can be done w/ the few LRs DL will have and there are routes that can be done with 763ERs but many more routes are best suited for 772ERs.

Every add'l 757 DL acquires translates into one more 767 that can be pulled off European flying and moved to longer routes such as Africa and parts of Asia.

Boeing may be sold out but they are not unaware that DL needs airplanes and if they can't get what DL needs, DL can go to Airbus. Boeing has often worked to create an airplane package for customers that includes leases that bridge the time until new airplanes are available. Boeing certainly knows what airplanes each of its customers would be willing to part with.


User currently offline1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6632 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 4267 times:

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 17):
Boeing may be sold out but they are not unaware that DL needs airplanes and if they can't get what DL needs, DL can go to Airbus. Boeing has often worked to create an airplane package for customers that includes leases that bridge the time until new airplanes are available. Boeing certainly knows what airplanes each of its customers would be willing to part with.

I don't see Delta going with the A350. The smallest A350 variant is significantly larger than the 767-300. The 787-8 is a better fit into Delta's fleet to replace their 767-300ERs on international routes, while Delta could convert a few of the remaining 767-300ERs to domestic configuration to replace the non-ER 767-300s.



The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlineAlitalia744 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 4760 posts, RR: 44
Reply 19, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 4255 times:

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 17):
Boeing may be sold out but they are not unaware that DL needs airplanes and if they can't get what DL needs, DL can go to Airbus. Boeing has often worked to create an airplane package for customers that includes leases that bridge the time until new airplanes are available. Boeing certainly knows what airplanes each of its customers would be willing to part with.


I forsee something being "shifted" around.

[Edited 2007-02-13 02:40:09]


Some see lines, others see between the lines.
User currently onlineSLCUT2777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 4124 posts, RR: 9
Reply 20, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 4164 times:

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 19):
I forsee something being "shifted" around.

Such as a rapid replacement plan for the MD-88/90s with some 738s and 737-700s?



DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
User currently offlineAlitalia744 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 4760 posts, RR: 44
Reply 21, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 4150 times:

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 20):
Such as a rapid replacement plan for the MD-88/90s with some 738s and 737-700s?

Oh c'mon, the MDs are so quiet in 2A/B  Wink



Some see lines, others see between the lines.
User currently onlineSLCUT2777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 4124 posts, RR: 9
Reply 22, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 4123 times:

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 21):
Oh c'mon, the MDs are so quiet in 2A/B  wink 


They likewise do such a great job at pissing off the NIMBY's virtually everywhere! (the MD-90s not so much).



DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
User currently offlineAlitalia744 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 4760 posts, RR: 44
Reply 23, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 4068 times:

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 22):
They likewise do such a great job at pissing off the NIMBY's virtually everywhere! (the MD-90s not so much).

What do the NIMBY's kno? Long live the Mad-Dog!



Some see lines, others see between the lines.
User currently onlineSLCUT2777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 4124 posts, RR: 9
Reply 24, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 4047 times:

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 23):
What do the NIMBY's know? Long live the Mad-Dog!

Actually it wouldn't surprise me to say the least that DL looked at some used 737-700s as options as well as a few additional 752s with P&W engines. They've deferred taking delivery of some of their options on 738s, but have indicated a desire to add the 737-700 to their fleet since it would work well in commonality with the 738s and be a far better a/c than the Mad-Dogs!



DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
25 Post contains images Alitalia744 : well we know they're gettin' 13 752s and 10 73Gs and eventually an incremental 12 738s (altho I suspect these will eventually be converted to 73Gs as
26 Post contains images SLCUT2777 : I think that is the official start of the end of the Mad-Dog era at DL!. As for additional 752s, I'm certain FedEx can pick up some RR powered birds
27 LACA773 : I know this may sound outlandish or just psychotic, but since DL hasn't ordered any 787s as of yet and with the large backlog of orders it would seem
28 WesternA318 : That would be a sad day indeed...
29 Post contains images DAL767400ER : Hell would freeze over before Delta buys Airbus planes again. Which is why the MadDogs are such great planes . Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe
30 SEPilot : I think Randy would kiss anyone who ordered a 767 right now; they want to keep the line open until the Air Force decides on the tanker. What bad expe
31 Cba : The 777 is booked solid over the next few years regarding delivery slots. Additional 767-400ER wouldn't be a bad stop-gap solution for European route
32 Post contains images DAL767400ER : Unsatisfactory performance of their A310s, but mostly it's DL just being a very loyal and satisfied Boeing customer rather than DL hating Airbus. Bes
33 Phollingsworth : It was really bad when DL returned their A310-300s to lessor. Airbus did everything they could to gum up the works. They rejected repairs that came s
34 DAL767400ER : Indeed, but in fairness to Airbus, it was also a bit of a lost cause anyway, because DL had more or less decided that their transatlantic plane of cho
35 ConcordeBoy : ...all of their 777s are already committed to Asian-only operations at this point, with domestic ops as a spare and as a transition between gateways.
36 Jbmitt : I think that Dubai, UAE and Tel Aviv, Israel are generally noted as Southwest Asia, or Middle East. Your post made me think more Pacific crossings ve
37 Alitalia744 : Whether the plane routes east or west, the destinations are SW Asia/ME. Asia was a generalization. Net - the planes aren't flying to Europe.
38 Papatango : Where will Delta be flying these ex TWA757-200er's they are receiving?
39 TSS : Do tell! I suppose this will be to cut the considerable number of MD-80 flights from BHM to ATL and back?
40 ConcordeBoy : ...that sounds more like a personal issue than a factual one. As has been stated ad nauseum, despite a slight initial difference in fuel capacity-- t
41 Bucky707 : true and not true. Its more than just fuel capacity which seperates these 757s from other 757s. While I don't think Boeing ever produced a model that
42 Lotsamiles : Check the technical specs on the 757-200 as published by Boeing. All models had 11,276 gallon capacity. There are differences for ETOPS, perhaps that
43 ConcordeBoy : ...well, neither is accurate as you two present them. Early models had 11,276g fuel capacity; but more recent ones featured 11,489g. The increase in
44 WorldTraveler : Airlines don't order new copies of old generation technology as a bridge until something new comes along. Airplanes have a 20 year economic life and
45 WesternA318 : A330-200's or A350's perhaps?
46 Lotsamiles : I stand corrected. I looked this up in the 757-200 AFM I have and sure enough some of the later MSN's had the 11,489g, or 213g more fuel. Interesting
47 Post contains images SLCUT2777 : DL pretty much tries to stick with one make for their aircraft and have through the ages. Except for the Lockheed Tri-Stars they were strictly a Doug
48 WesternA318 : A new profession perhaps?
49 Post contains images SLCUT2777 : I still have 13 years before I'm retirement eligible for U.S. Federal service, but it's an idea perhaps we should mention to Johan, and make this sit
50 LASOctoberB6 : i meant after that.....
51 MakeMinesLAX : You're overlooking the CV-880 and, if "strictly" doesn't mean excluding small subfleets, the 747 and L-100.
52 DAL767400ER : Try telling that to ANA. A few ex-NW 757s in Marana, for example. If you want exact numbers, look them up on AirFleets. Numbers change too often for
53 Bucky707 : Look I did not say that these 757s are in fact ERs. But, almost all the improvements I mentioned were done to improve the ability of the 757 to fly l
54 Jbmitt : Its called Etops. None of Delta's planes have been maintained to Etops specs, although several forrmer TZ jets are capable.
55 Bucky707 : That is my whole.point. To be ETOPs qualified, there is certain equipment that you have to have. Actually, thats not even totally true. There are dif
56 ConcordeBoy : Spare me the melodrama... you know plain well that that's a factor of them having ordered said aircraft at lower MTOW than was available, which is so
57 Bucky707 : no doubt Delta ordered these with a lower MTOW than was available. Tell me, do you even know what the other differences are?
59 Post contains images WesternA318 : ConcordeBoy, ever feel like you got spanked??
60 SLCUT2777 : While there were some sub-fleets of Lockheed's and Convair's and even some Curtis-Martin (the later especially during the piston engine era), my poin
61 WesternA318 : I take it me and you are two of them?
62 PavlovsDog : Delta did just that when they ordered their existing 764's rather than 772's or even Airbus 330's. While the 787 is a significantly better plane than
63 Delta767300ER : This is a bit off topic, but are the ATL-Florida/Florida-ATL runs going to continue with a variety of widebody aircraft? Everytime I fly these routes,
64 1337Delta764 : MCO, TPA, FLL, and JAX will probably continue to get widebodies year-round. You may no longer see 767-400s to those destinations, but the domestic no
65 RwSEA : The 332 is a near-perfect replacement for DL's 763s, the only major shortcoming being the reduced range. As far as the A350 is concerned, it's going
66 WorldTraveler : DL looked very carefully at the A330 when they ordered the 764s and decided the commonality issues w/ the 763 were significant. In addition, the 764
67 ConcordeBoy : ...what reduced range? Or, 287 seat domestic aircraft, in the case of DL's 764ERs. ...'course they aren't, which is exactly why AA/UA/DL/CO/AF/KL/AZ/
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