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757 With Fly-By Wire  
User currently offlineT773ER From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 278 posts, RR: 0
Posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 4654 times:

I was watching a documentary on building the 777, called "The Building of a 21 First Century Jet", when I heard that Boeing had a 757 outfitted with the fly-by wire a 777 uses. I was wondering, does anybody know were or what happened to this plane?


"Fixed fortifications are monuments to the stupidity of man."
17 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26426 posts, RR: 76
Reply 1, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 4654 times:

Quoting T773ER (Thread starter):
I was watching a documentary on building the 777, called "The Building of a 21 First Century Jet", when I heard that Boeing had a 757 outfitted with the fly-by wire a 777 uses. I was wondering, does anybody know were or what happened to this plane?

That plane is the first 757 off the line and serves as Boeing's test mule, mainly operating out of BFI.



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently onlineAA777223 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 1244 posts, RR: 6
Reply 2, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 4480 times:

Why was this technology not translated into the production versions? If this technology was available when the 757 was built, why did we have to wait until the 777 came along to see it? Why didn't we see it in the likes of the 737NG, etc.?


Sic 'em bears
User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 968 posts, RR: 51
Reply 3, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 4408 times:

Quoting AA777223 (Reply 2):
Why was this technology not translated into the production versions?

Airlines did not want to upset commonality with their in-service fleets. You are talking about massive system overhaul to convert an aircraft into FBW. It would neutralize any cost savings obtained by using FBW in the first place.

* - as a comparison, bear in mind that Airbus didn't convert the A300 to FBW flight controls once FBW was implemented in commercial aircraft like the A320 and A330/A340.

Quoting AA777223 (Reply 2):
If this technology was available when the 757 was built, why did we have to wait until the 777 came along to see it?

The technology was not yet available in the late-70s when the 757 was produced. At the time, fleets were still transitioning large aircraft into two-man cockpits and introducing the first glass instruments. However, the 757 does have a few electronically activated flight controls, just not the primary surfaces.

Quoting AA777223 (Reply 2):
Why didn't we see it in the likes of the 737NG, etc.?

First and foremost, the key launch customers wanted commonality with previous generation 737.

Not to mention, there was no reason to fit FBW into the 737NG. FBW is used to reduce aircraft weight, increase dispatch reliability, and improve safety. The 737NG series are already lighter than the A320 variants, they have demonstrated higher dispatch reliability, and have incurred fewer fatal accidents. It would have also cost millions and millions of dollars to retrofit FBW, prolonged the development cycle, and required additional certification. All in all, it just didn't make sense for the 737NG.

[Edited 2007-02-12 01:37:46]

User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26426 posts, RR: 76
Reply 4, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 4391 times:

Quoting AA777223 (Reply 2):
If this technology was available when the 757 was built

The technology was available in military aircraft before the 757, but the 757/767 program was not developed with it. The 757 in question was retro-fitted with the FBW system as part of the testing for the 777.

Quoting AA777223 (Reply 2):
why did we have to wait until the 777 came along to see it?

Because that was Boeing's first new airplane project since the test.

Quoting AA777223 (Reply 2):
Why didn't we see it in the likes of the 737NG, etc.?

If Boeing had gone FBW on the 737NG, it would not have been able to use the same type certificate and have a common type rating with previous 737s. Further, the 737NG's lighter relative weight to the A32S and high dispatch reliability show less of a reason for FBW



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineMax Q From United States of America, joined May 2001, 4441 posts, RR: 19
Reply 5, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 4373 times:

There is one FBW flight control on the 757 /767, that is the speed brake.


The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
User currently onlineAA777223 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 1244 posts, RR: 6
Reply 6, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 4180 times:

Quoting Max Q (Reply 5):
There is one FBW flight control on the 757 /767, that is the speed brake.

Hence the movement of the spoilers when banking?



Sic 'em bears
User currently offlineFlyboyseven From Canada, joined Feb 2007, 904 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 4145 times:

Quoting AA777223 (Reply 6):
Hence the movement of the spoilers when banking?

Dont the spoilers on all Boeing aircraft move with bank?



As long as the number of take-offs equals the number of landings...you're doing fine.
User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31679 posts, RR: 56
Reply 8, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 4025 times:

Quoting Max Q (Reply 5):
There is one FBW flight control on the 757 /767, that is the speed brake.

Spoilers are FBW on the B757.
regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineMax Q From United States of America, joined May 2001, 4441 posts, RR: 19
Reply 9, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 3893 times:

The speedbrake operates the spoilers.


The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
User currently offlineMcdu From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 1459 posts, RR: 17
Reply 10, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 3837 times:

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 3):
they have demonstrated higher dispatch reliability, and have incurred fewer fatal accidents.

I would be very interested to see your supporting data on this statement. Having flown both Boeing and Airbus I am not a huge AB FBW fan due to the logic of the system, especailly in crosswinds. However, your statement I believe is off the mark. The safety record of the 737 is not flawless, lest we forget about the serious issues it has had with the rudder and the flight/ground spoiler switch. Also, the bus sits higher off the ground giving a much better field of view from the cockpit than the runway hugging, cramped cockpit oven that is the 737.


User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 968 posts, RR: 51
Reply 11, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 3764 times:

Quoting Mcdu (Reply 10):
The safety record of the 737 is not flawless, lest we forget about the serious issues it has had with the rudder and the flight/ground spoiler switch.

None of those issues have effected the 737NG series. The 737NG series has just two fatal accidents after more than 2,000 deliveries and nearly a decade of service. Please find me any aircraft with that distinction. Not even the FBW A320 has performed that remarkably.

Quoting Mcdu (Reply 10):
Also, the bus sits higher off the ground giving a much better field of view from the cockpit than the runway hugging, cramped cockpit oven that is the 737.

Has this been cited as a contributing factor to any accidents with the 737NG series? None that I know of...


User currently offlineN328KF From United States of America, joined May 2004, 6484 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 3754 times:

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 11):
None of those issues have effected the 737NG series. The 737NG series has just two fatal accidents after more than 2,000 deliveries and nearly a decade of service. Please find me any aircraft with that distinction. Not even the FBW A320 has performed that remarkably.

Not only that, but one of those accidents (or 50%) were caused by faults on another aircraft. The remaining accident investigation is not yet complete, but could be either pilot error, or improper component selection by the operator (WN).



When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' T.Roosevelt
User currently offlineAirEMS From United States of America, joined May 2004, 684 posts, RR: 3
Reply 13, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 3737 times:

Even though the 777 has FBW doesn't it still have cable / hydraulic back up systems? Does Airbus offer back up systems like this? IIRC Airbus doesn't


-Carl



If Your Dying Were Flying
User currently offlineA342 From Germany, joined Jul 2005, 4681 posts, RR: 3
Reply 14, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 3689 times:

Quoting AirEMS (Reply 13):
Even though the 777 has FBW doesn't it still have cable / hydraulic back up systems? Does Airbus offer back up systems like this? IIRC Airbus doesn't

I don't know, but IIRC, the Airbus FBW system itself is triple-redundant (or was it quadruple ?).



Exceptions confirm the rule.
User currently offlineSEPilot From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 6875 posts, RR: 46
Reply 15, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 3655 times:

Quoting AirEMS (Reply 13):
Even though the 777 has FBW doesn't it still have cable / hydraulic back up systems?

I believe it does not; one of the big advantages of FBW is eliminating the cables, as they are a big maintenance headache. The FBW of course retains the hydraulic systems; the actuation is electornic instead of mechanical through the cables.



The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31679 posts, RR: 56
Reply 16, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 3510 times:

Quoting Max Q (Reply 9):
The speedbrake operates the spoilers

Rather the Aileon mvmt operates the Spoilers in Air to assist the Bank & The Speed brake lever operates the Speed brakes except #4 & 9 in Air & all on Grd.
regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineMcdu From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 1459 posts, RR: 17
Reply 17, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 3491 times:

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 11):
None of those issues have effected the 737NG series. The 737NG series has just two fatal accidents after more than 2,000 deliveries and nearly a decade of service. Please find me any aircraft with that distinction. Not even the FBW A320 has performed that remarkably.

Sure the 757/767 had and has had a remarkable safety record. The 777 is even better. The 737NG of course should have better safety record due to the maturation of the product. The 737 has and had many design issues and it is the time in service and previous accidents that have produced a decent safter record to date. I would suspect the Airbus NG will be just a well served but it does have a very good safety record for its advanced systems and controls.

Also to answer the one of the other posters. The 777 is FBW and is not backed up with cables.


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