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UK/Europe - Honolulu Non-stop?  
User currently offlineCHRISBA777ER From UK - England, joined Mar 2001, 5964 posts, RR: 62
Posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 11411 times:

Nevermind the low-yields, and lets just suspend disbelief as regards year-round traffic levels, but what if I wanted to serve LGW-HNL non-stop for example? Assume i've got massive travel company backing and a five year commitment to block sell 50% of my seats to a number of travel operators, and some lucrative bellyhold contracts of affreightment in place for a similar period.

Could the 744/A346/77W do it year round non-stop? Would I need an A345 or 772LR instead?

What kind of flight time would that be, about fifteen hours?


What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
39 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineEWRCabincrew From United States of America, joined May 2006, 5527 posts, RR: 56
Reply 1, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 11376 times:

I know UA and CO have done HNL-FRA for charters. Both airlines went non-stop. So it is possible, just is it feasible.


You can't cure stupid
User currently offlineKLMyank From Netherlands, joined May 2004, 172 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 11334 times:

Well, it is 6300 NM, slightly less than ORD-HKG and definitely less than EWR-HKG. So possible year round with a 772 or 744. Maybe payload restricted, am not a tech boffin.

User currently offlineCV580Freak From Bahrain, joined Jul 2005, 1033 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 11307 times:

Caribbean and Mexico holidays were unheard of 20 years ago, longer flight but anythings possible. There used to be a travel agent in the LGW area, Jet something or other, that promoted Hawaii as a holiday destination.


One day you are the pigeon, the next the statue ...
User currently offlinePanAm747 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4242 posts, RR: 8
Reply 4, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 11234 times:

It can be done - I'd advise setting up ANC as your alternate, as HNL-LHR is 6289 nm, whereas HNL-ANC is 2413 nm and ANC-LHR is 3901 nm, for a total of 6314 nm, or just 25 nm further than the non-stop. That's where you'd probably want to divert to in cases of necessity.

Possible, yes. Probable, no. Too many European airlines can give you a one-stop with their American partner via ORD, EWR, SFO, LAX, and so on. Low yield, plus the fact that most Europeans seeking the sun will stick to the Mediterranean rather than a VERY long plane trip. Yes, some will go, but not the large numbers needed to make a route work.



Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
User currently offlineCory6188 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2692 posts, RR: 5
Reply 5, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 11159 times:

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 4):
Too many European airlines can give you a one-stop with their American partner via ORD, EWR, SFO, LAX, and so on.

Not only that, but nearly all of the US carriers can give you a one-stop all on the same airline. CO through EWR/IAH, AA/UA through ORD, DL through ATL, and NW/KL through DTW all come to mind as easy ways to get to Hawaii with only one stop in the US when coming from Europe.


User currently offlineCOEI2007 From Vanuatu, joined Jan 2007, 1912 posts, RR: 5
Reply 6, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 11144 times:

I remember reading FCA was interested in starting West Coast and Hawaii charters, once their 787's arrive

User currently offlineCHRISBA777ER From UK - England, joined Mar 2001, 5964 posts, RR: 62
Reply 7, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 11039 times:

What about Papeete - LGW non-stop - Possible year round without payload restrictions with an A345?


What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
User currently offlineDavid_itl From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2001, 7439 posts, RR: 13
Reply 8, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 10943 times:
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When HA operated their charters (1988?) to LGW/MAN, where did they stop off?

Quoting CV580Freak (Reply 3):
Caribbean and Mexico holidays were unheard of 20 years

Then the Airtours travel agency introduced weekly holiday from £299 return (or something like that) using "Trans Jamaican Airlines" and "International Carribbean" which I believe were 747s operated by Lionair (which was failrly short-lived subsidiary of Cargolux)


User currently offlineWA707atMSP From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 2264 posts, RR: 8
Reply 9, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 10936 times:

Western Airlines flew Honolulu-Anchorage-London Gatwick scheduled flights, with DC-10-30s, for about a year in 1979/1980.


Seaholm Maples are #1!
User currently offlineEWRCabincrew From United States of America, joined May 2006, 5527 posts, RR: 56
Reply 10, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 10929 times:

UA used the 744 and we used the 772 for our charters.


You can't cure stupid
User currently offlineCOEI2007 From Vanuatu, joined Jan 2007, 1912 posts, RR: 5
Reply 11, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 10914 times:

Quoting EWRCabincrew (Reply 10):
UA used the 744 and we used the 772 for our charters.

Do we have many charters, just out of curiosity? I didnt think there was enough slack in the utilisation of the 77 fleet, to fit in a charter?


User currently offlineNickofatlanta From Australia, joined May 2000, 1488 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 10891 times:

There was a post in another thread about how LH used to operate HNL-FRA nonstop in the early 1990s a couple of times week with A340s.

User currently offlineKoruman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 10824 times:

It's not just theoretically possible, but it's actually under investigation at the moment, and not just for low-yield London-Honolulu traffic..

Air New Zealand currently flies Auckland-London Heathrow via both Hong Kong and Los Angeles, but timezones, feeds and curfews mean that flights via both HKG and LAX have to leave Auckland at night and London in the afternoon.

Air NZ knows that the LHR-AKL market justified one daily 747-400 in 2000, two by 2007 and will justify three flights by 2009-10. But increased frequency really would fit best with offering flights at different times of the day, and that is where Honolulu may have a role, because it would allow departures to be much better spaced around the clock.

NZ 10 Dep AKL 1045 Arr HNL 2030-1. Dep HNL 2200-1 Arr LHR 2200.
NZ 9 Dep LHR 2359 Arr HNL 0400. Dep HNL 0600 Arr AKL 1400+2.

This model allows domestic feed in Auckland for the outward flight and from across the UK and Europe for the return departure from London.

The idea would be to fill the Business Premier and Premium Economy sections of the 777-200LR (which Air NZ has options for) with passengers flying all the way between Auckland and London - and the late departure from London allows such passengers to do a full day's business, whereas the Hong Kong and LA-transiting flights make them wait around until the following afternoon . The economy section would be half-filled with passengers flying all the way NZ-UK, but also half-filled with Kiwi and British tourists flying to Hawaii.

Air NZ still has a station and lounge at Honolulu, but is down from daily to twice weekly flights now that Trans-Pacific jets don't need to stop to refuel.

There are currently three Air NZ contingency plans for how Honolulu services can be made more viable than the current low-yield tourist traffic. One is to extend AKL-HNL on to Vancouver, one is to extend it to London and the third is to abandon Honolulu to the LCC subsidiary Freedom Air.


User currently offlineEWRCabincrew From United States of America, joined May 2006, 5527 posts, RR: 56
Reply 14, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 10815 times:

Quoting COEI2007 (Reply 11):
Do we have many charters, just out of curiosity? I didnt think there was enough slack in the utilisation of the 77 fleet, to fit in a charter?

They were military charters.



You can't cure stupid
User currently offlineGte439u From Canada, joined Nov 2003, 361 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 10776 times:

Thank you Koruman for your intriguing post!

Quoting Koruman (Reply 13):
Air NZ knows that the LHR-AKL market justified one daily 747-400 in 2000, two by 2007 and will justify three flights by 2009-10. But increased frequency really would fit best with offering flights at different times of the day, and that is where Honolulu may have a role, because it would allow departures to be much better spaced around the clock.

NZ 10 Dep AKL 1045 Arr HNL 2030-1. Dep HNL 2200-1 Arr LHR 2200.
NZ 9 Dep LHR 2359 Arr HNL 0400. Dep HNL 0600 Arr AKL 1400+2.

First, would the two hour turn around time in LHR conflict with night curfew if the flight is even slightly delayed?

Secondly, would NZ consider ANC as a transit point rather than HNL? AKL-ANC is 6124 nm. A possible advantage of ANC is that transit passengers are permitted to disembark without passing through US immigration formalities. Of course, HNL has a long NZ presence, and there is added efficiency in NZ already having the data on the HNL-AKL market.


User currently offlineLaxintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 26147 posts, RR: 50
Reply 16, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 10725 times:

Quoting Koruman (Reply 13):
Arr LHR 2200



Quoting Koruman (Reply 13):
NZ 9 Dep LHR 2359

Guess someone forgot about the Heathrow night time restrictions.

Quoting Koruman (Reply 13):
but also half-filled with Kiwi and British tourists flying to Hawaii.

Tourism to Hawaii from Europe is a pittance, and is actually on the decline.

For instance in 2005, of 7.5 million visitors barely 100,000 were from Europe which was an annual decline of 2.3% while their average spending declined 6.6%.

Of the visitors 55% were on package holidays, with wedding and honeymoon travel as number one reason for visits. Per capita European visitors had the 2nd lowest average daily spending only beating out Canadians.


While I can see Air NZ looking at options of serving the UK more, thinking Hawaii will provide anything other than rock bottom tourist traffic is living in a fantasy.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineKoruman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 10642 times:

The decline is simply because there are no longer 1 stop flights now that 747-400s can cross the Pacific non-stop.

The point is that a third LHR-AKL flight has to stop somewhere to refuel, and the only place in the existing NZ network which could allow well-spaced flights which would not have curfew or feed problems is Honolulu, which also happens to address the problem of the failing AKL-HNL flight just as the extension to London salvaged AKL-HKG.

And yes, everyone knows that HNL is a low-yield destination. But only the passengers in the back would be flying TO Honolulu, the premium passengers would be just refuelling there.


User currently offlineIloveboeing From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 803 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 10557 times:

Quoting Gte439u (Reply 15):
First, would the two hour turn around time in LHR conflict with night curfew if the flight is even slightly delayed?

Maybe NZ could replace its 744s with 748s and then the night curfew at LHR wouldn't be an issue. I believe the GENX engines meet the noise regulations.


User currently offlineChugach From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 1041 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 10548 times:

Quoting Gte439u (Reply 15):

Secondly, would NZ consider ANC as a transit point rather than HNL? AKL-ANC is 6124 nm. A possible advantage of ANC is that transit passengers are permitted to disembark without passing through US immigration formalities. Of course, HNL has a long NZ presence, and there is added efficiency in NZ already having the data on the HNL-AKL market.

ANC might make sense purely from a transit standpoint, but NZ can carry tourist traffic to Hawaii by flying that proposed route through HNL. I live in Anchorage and love it to death here, but the day NZ touches down at Uncle Ted International with regularly scheduled AKL-ANC nonstop, I will dive butt-naked into the Arctic Ocean.



GO ROCKETS
User currently offlineEWRCabincrew From United States of America, joined May 2006, 5527 posts, RR: 56
Reply 20, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 10523 times:

I will dive butt-naked into the Arctic Ocean.

Quoted from Chugach, post 19

If that happens, prepare for an audience. I'd buy a full fare.  

[Edited 2007-02-14 03:50:54]


You can't cure stupid
User currently offlineHALFA From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 1367 posts, RR: 15
Reply 21, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 10473 times:

Quoting David_itl (Reply 8):
When HA operated their charters (1988?) to LGW/MAN, where did they stop off?

Oh the memories. HA operated charter flights from HNL to both Stansted and Manchester. The flights were operated with L-1011's and DC-8's with fuel stops in both Seattle, and Frobisher Bay NWT, Canada, and yes, you had the years correct also 88/89.
During the same time period, HA flew charters from Zurich and Frankfurt to HNL with a fuel stop in ANC, utilizing our DC-8's.
In addition, when I was hired with HA back in 1985, we were flying charters from SFO to both LGW and ORY with fuel stops in Gander, Newfoundland, using our L-1011's.
It is my belief that with the addition of more long haul aircraft into the skies in the coming decade, nonstop service from HNL to Europe will not be a question of if but when. Low yield or not, it is inevitable.
Everyone is assuming that all passengers on these flights will be originating in Europe. People forget that there are MANY wealthy people in Hawaii that would love to get on a nonstop flight to Europe.


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Aloha,
HALFA



Don't mess with Texas....We just may do that!
User currently offlineKoruman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 10431 times:

Absolutely, HALFA. I'm a strong advocate of Air NZ extending AKL-HNL to London, because AKL-HNL never used to be a low-yield route when it was AKL-HNL-LAX(-LHR), it just became low-yield when the HNL-LAX connector went and rich Hawaiians stopped flying Air NZ to Europe, and rich Europeans stopped taking a Hawaii stopover en route to Australia or New Zealand.

Honolulu was and is a great airport for high-yield carriers to use as a long-haul refuel point / stopover option, it's just a trainwreck when it's viewed as a stand-alone destination.

Laxintl has misunderstood the data showing figures for Europeans visiting Hawaii. Of course the number and spending has declined, but simply because it's no longer a do-able stopover on the way Down Under like it used to be. The affluent Europeans stop at Dubai now because that is what is on offer as a single stop en route to Australia or New Zealand, but they would be just as likely to choose Honolulu if it was on offer as the single stop. (Dubai markets itself well, but if you lived in chilly London and had a choice between a 5 day stopover in unbearable heat in Iraq's neighbourhood, or 5 days by the beach in Hawaii which would you choose? I would wager that a very large proportion would go for Hawaii, just as they used to when it was last a competitive stopover 20 years ago).

I remember as a boy in London my first visit to Honolulu was on an Air NZ itinerary 25 years ago whereby the flights went LAX-PPT-RAR-AKL and AKL-NAN-HNL-LAX. We perceived it as a great bonus to get an online stopover at HNL. Today we'd probably have flown LHR-LAX-AKL, but if we could fly back AKL-HNL-LHR we probably would.


Honolulu's role as a transit and stopover point has basically been usurped by Dubai and Singapore, and both of those destinations do very well with rich long-haul passengers breaking a long journey there for a few days.

[Edited 2007-02-14 04:50:46]

User currently offlineStirling From Italy, joined Jun 2004, 3943 posts, RR: 21
Reply 23, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 10393 times:

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 16):
Tourism to Hawaii from Europe is a pittance, and is actually on the decline.



Quoting Koruman (Reply 17):
The decline is simply because there are no longer 1 stop flights now that 747-400s can cross the Pacific non-stop.

In the very old days, (As late as 1976) PanAm flew daily from London to Honolulu,
2-Stops,
Via SEA and PDX with a 707.



Delete this User
User currently offlineZK-NBT From New Zealand, joined Oct 2000, 5359 posts, RR: 11
Reply 24, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 10327 times:

Quoting Koruman (Reply 17):
The point is that a third LHR-AKL flight has to stop somewhere to refuel, and the only place in the existing NZ network which could allow well-spaced flights which would not have curfew or feed problems is Honolulu, which also happens to address the problem of the failing AKL-HNL flight just as the extension to London salvaged AKL-HKG.

I agree with that. I'm interested to see what NZ will do with HNL, from whats been said on here in the past, HNL-YVR was a bloodbath in the past when NZ did it, so I wonder if that will be any different today? But yes AKL-HNL-LHR would certainly be interesting.


25 Krist0f : I remember last year I flew BRU-LHR-SFO-OGG.. that was a pretty long trip (30+ hours with layovers). I would've loved to have been able to fly non-sto
26 Planemanofnz : I didn't think NZ had a plan or had even considered doing this! It would be a smart idea though. Doubt it. If anything, JQ will step in and fly the r
27 Chugach : ETOPS wouldn't be an issue on AKL-ANC. If you look at the great circle mapper, basically the most direct flight path goes close to Hawaii and then no
28 RichardJF : I like the idea. NZ has it's own natural market to the UK and doesn't need to pitch the HNL-London sector against the charter operators particularly.
29 SFORunner : Heck, let's completely hijack this thread and throw AKL - YVR - LHR into the ring, why don't we? 1) SYD-based pax could fly to YVR and completely byp
30 A342 : They stopped in both SEA and PDX on the very same flight ? Now that doesn't make sense !
31 Justplanecrazy : strange only today i decided i would do a non stop flight between EGLL-PHNL on my Level D B763 i should just have enough fuel in the tanks and now i'm
32 N593HA : I'm honestly hoping for the day that HA will order the 787 and than start non-stop flights ex HNL to Europe. Frequency wise I could imagine 4x weekly
33 Koruman : I'm sorry, but I can't see O+D HNL-LGW or HNL-AMS flights, not ever. Hawaii in its own right is a very low-yield market. The 60s to the late 80s showe
34 Viscount724 : To the best of my memory PA used different aircraft on the SEA-LHR and SEA-PDX-HNL routes in those days. I flew a PA 707 HNL-PDX-SEA once in April 19
35 HBJZA : According to great circle mapper, the CDG-PPT run has 400 km more than the EWR-SIN run !!! So it's probably doable. Wonder why AF hasn't started it y
36 CHRISBA777ER : Probably because they dont have A345s or 777LRs?
37 CHRISBA777ER : To everyone trying to tell me it wont happen, please refer to the above from my original post. This thread was about Can It Be Done, and with what ai
38 EDICHC : Well I tend to disagree, the trend in my old home of Scotland and the UK as whole has been very much an increase in long-haul destinations at the exp
39 HanginOut : I agree with SFORunner and think that a one stop in YVR rather than HNL with service onto LHR would be a better option. Rather than feed into AC's fl
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