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TAM To MXP With MD11  
User currently offlineJJMNGR From Brazil, joined May 2004, 1018 posts, RR: 15
Posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 9487 times:

Guys,

Plans changed in operating one of the flights to MIA with MD11 in order to release the A332 to MXP. MIA will keep the A332 and MXP is going to operate with daily MD11.

Cheers,

29 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11416 posts, RR: 59
Reply 1, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 9388 times:
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Seems that they made the best choice.

MXP requires only one plane and it's a new route so their customers can't complain about the M11. MIA in the opposite is an established route, and running it with a mix of A332 / M11 can create some troubles (imagine if one M11 is not in conditions to fly... how to handle 49C from M11 on 30C on A332!).

Also, looking for the way they use the A332 fleet, we can also say that they can be more comfortable with the M11 on MXP:

Every morning arrives in GRU:

A332 with F - From LHR and JFK
A332 without F - From MIA, CDG and GIG.
M11 from CDG

Today they run the following daylight flights with widebodies:

A332 with F - To JFK (daylight) and MAO (sold C+Y as Y, F not used)
A332 without First Class seats - To SCL, MIA and one use to be grounded for maintenance purposes.
The grounded one use to fly to REC, NAT if it's necessary.

JJ8027 from SCL arrives GRU at 1800
JJ3749 from MAO arrives GRU at 2040 (use to go after to JFK or LHR)
JJ8095 from MIA arrives GRU at 2015
JJ8083 from JFK arrives GRU at 2025

So, if they decide to run an A330 to MXP, they could face problems if the flight from SCL delayed a little as:

JJ8098 to CDG departs GRU at 1910
JJ8060 to MXP departs GRU at 1900 (but JJ8061 only arrives at 2045)

Using the M11 for sure TAM will have more freedom as they can use the plane arrived in the early morning from CDG to run GRU-MXP-GRU. The M11 probably will run GRU-MXP-GRU-CDG-GRU.

Felipe



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32596 posts, RR: 72
Reply 2, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 9388 times:

While it will be sad not to see the MD11 at MIA, it is the best way to do it from an operational and customer service standpoint.


a.
User currently offlineDonzilasse From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 244 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 9274 times:

Smart decision of TAM. I wish them the best on the MXP route with the MD11.
Anybody who knows how the domestic delays are now? I flying the JJ from Miami to Fortaleza Thursday and then via Brasilia to CNF?
Lasse


User currently offlineWillyj From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 468 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 9256 times:

What are the business class seats like on the MD-11? Are they similar to the 332?

User currently offlineDonzilasse From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 244 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 9246 times:

Pretty much the old Varig ones with new seatcovers a la JJ is my understanding. Remember that this only is a temporary solution until the deliveries of the 773,s 2008.
Lasse


User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11416 posts, RR: 59
Reply 6, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 9209 times:
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Quoting Donzilasse (Reply 5):
Pretty much the old Varig ones with new seatcovers a la JJ is my understanding. Remember that this only is a temporary solution until the deliveries of the 773,s 2008.

100% right!

Quoting Donzilasse (Reply 3):
Smart decision of TAM. I wish them the best on the MXP route with the MD11.
Anybody who knows how the domestic delays are now? I flying the JJ from Miami to Fortaleza Thursday and then via Brasilia to CNF?

Delays could happen, but are not frequent nowadays. Probably you will have a very nice trip ! I expect the same as i will be flying from JFK to GIG thru GRU next friday night.

Felipe



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineJJMNGR From Brazil, joined May 2004, 1018 posts, RR: 15
Reply 7, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 9099 times:

It is being also evaluated the possibility of operating he MD11 to SCL or to MAO iso A332. My particular opinion from the economic point of view? Not a good option...

From this weekend on, JJ8082 will operate GIG/GRU/JFK and JJ8095 will operate MIA/GRU/GIG, both with A332.


User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 50
Reply 8, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 9013 times:

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 1):
MXP requires only one plane and it's a new route so their customers can't complain about the M11



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 2):
While it will be sad not to see the MD11 at MIA, it is the best way to do it from an operational and customer service standpoint.

Agree to the opinions expressed above. In addition, competition on the route GRU-MXP is with Alitalia which has a "delapitaded" or "inferior" product if compared to competition on the MIA (AA), CDG (AF), LHR (BA) routes.

This is a natural decision which comes as no surprise for me.

More fundamental, however, the decion also entails that more seats are offered to MXP which has market capacity to absorb the extrac capacity. TAM A330 (30C/175Y or 42C/171Y or 18F/36C/171Y) fropm 212 to 225 pax capacity. TAM's MD-11, however, will offer 6F/49C/230Y or total of 285 seats equivalent to about 25% more seats available without compromising yields with 55 premium seats. In my opinion, the right decision as GRU-MXP is a market underserved, with very good yields.

All the best for TAM.

Rgs,


User currently offlineIAD380 From United States of America, joined May 2006, 804 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 8969 times:

In Europe, does JJ serve any cities besides LHR, CDG, and MXP? Is FRA the only remaining European destination served by RG? Does any Brazilian airline currently fly to LIS, MAD, or ZRH? Besides JJ and RG, do any other Brazilian airlines offer scheduled flights to Europe or North America?

User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11416 posts, RR: 59
Reply 10, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 8929 times:
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Quoting IAD380 (Reply 9):
In Europe, does JJ serve any cities besides LHR, CDG, and MXP?

No IAD380, only the three you mentioned.

Quoting IAD380 (Reply 9):
Is FRA the only remaining European destination served by RG?

In fact the only Intercontinental destination served by RG!

Quoting IAD380 (Reply 9):
Does any Brazilian airline currently fly to LIS, MAD, or ZRH?

BRA is flying 2x weekly to LIS and MAD with one Boeing 767-300ER on a regular basis.

Quoting IAD380 (Reply 9):
Besides JJ and RG, do any other Brazilian airlines offer scheduled flights to Europe or North America?

Only BRA. They have an agreement to fly CGN from GIG (nowadays GIG-GRU-CGN-GIG-GRU) once a week. And will very soon begin their MXP flights.
Ocean Air keep plans for LAX flights with 763 also.

Felipe



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineIAD380 From United States of America, joined May 2006, 804 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 8855 times:

Thank you, Felipe

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 10):
Only BRA. They have an agreement to fly CGN from GIG (nowadays GIG-GRU-CGN-GIG-GRU) once a week. And will very soon begin their MXP flights.

Does BRA fly 767-300ER to CGN and MXP? How often will BRA fly to MXP? I suppose no Brazilian airline competes with AZ to FCO.


User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11416 posts, RR: 59
Reply 12, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 8713 times:
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Quoting IAD380 (Reply 11):
Does BRA fly 767-300ER to CGN and MXP? How often will BRA fly to MXP? I suppose no Brazilian airline competes with AZ to FCO.

Nowadays only a weekly flight, but there are rumors about 2 more 763 joining their fleet by march/april, in order that they can improve LIS/MAD/MXP.

Felipe



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 50
Reply 13, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 8670 times:

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 10):
Only BRA. They have an agreement to fly CGN from GIG (nowadays GIG-GRU-CGN-GIG-GRU) once a week. And will very soon begin their MXP flights.

Lipe, BRA www.voebra.com.br will start flights to MXP and FCO on 19 April 2007. BRA received yesterday the rights to operate 7 weekly flights to Italy. BRA will receive two B763 (280 pax) in March/07 to operate the flights to MXP and FCO. It could be that BRA uses the full 7 weekly frequencies.

More information about the charter market Italy-Northeast Brazil under this link RE: Italy To Northeast Brazil: 11 Weekly Charters (by Hardiwv Nov 23 2006 in Civil Aviation)

It shows there is a very good market for flight operations Brazil-Italy.

Rgs,


User currently offlineHagic From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 159 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 8530 times:

The MD-11, definitely my favorite aircraft. Looks great on TAM's livery.

http://eu.airliners.net/photos/photos/4/8/7/1166784.jpg



There's only one freedom of the press: That of the survivors - (G. Arciniegas)
User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 50
Reply 15, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 8351 times:

Latest reports in an interview by TAM Director for Europe is that TAM's GRU-MXP already show a load of amazing 75% even before flight started, due to start March 30.

Rgs,


User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11416 posts, RR: 59
Reply 16, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 8325 times:
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Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 15):
Latest reports in an interview by TAM Director for Europe is that TAM's GRU-MXP already show a load of amazing 75% even before flight started, due to start March 30.

I think it declares 85% and even 75% become strange...:

- Up to last week the A332 was assigned to this route on the reservation system (it means 214 seats).
- Now they say 85% (or 75%) on a MD11 with 279 seats (= 237 seats sold in average). Do they overbooked the A332 ?

And now the news... they are selling Y with immediate upgrade to C for just US$ 2,449.00 !

So, some questions/details:

1) I really don't think they get so higher loads if they need to practice so lower price. It's the lowest for Europe right now.

2) May be they are getting tons of Y reservations, and that's why they decided not to have an introducing fare on Y, but could be an indicator they are trying to increase yields.

3) It's very clear to me that GRU-Europe is becoming saturated for Business Class. Fares are going down during the last 12 months, and nowadays you can find GRU-Europe for half of the price of a GRU-US flights (except JFK). Now it's easy to find a US$ 2,500.00 deal for a R/T to MAD, LIS, MUC, MXP, LHR and CDG.

Felipe



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 50
Reply 17, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 8312 times:

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 16):
1) I really don't think they get so higher loads if they need to practice so lower price. It's the lowest for Europe right now.

They need to get customers, Italian market does not know TAM and in general TAM still is very unknown in Europe, except for Paris. Even London TAM continues to be very little known. TAM needs to practice low prices. TAM needs to join an alliance, so they could become more known.

The low prices explain the high loads.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 16):
2) May be they are getting tons of Y reservations, and that's why they decided not to have an introducing fare on Y, but could be an indicator they are trying to increase yields.

Apparently the healthy booking to MXP was another factor behing the introduction of the MD-11 to MXP.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 16):
It's very clear to me that GRU-Europe is becoming saturated for Business Class.

Disagee, Lipe. Booking on C Euope-Brazil are very healthy and all airlines.


Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 16):
and nowadays you can find GRU-Europe for half of the price of a GRU-US flights (except JFK). Now it's easy to find a US$ 2,500.00 deal for a R/T to MAD, LIS, MUC, MXP, LHR and CDG.

You also have to keep in mind that European airlines practice discount prices in the Brazilian market but sell for much higher fare in Europe.

C bookings Brazil-Europe are very healthy and sell extremely well. Actually, sometimes it is very difficult to find C seats on discount fares. If you buy a C class in European carrier to Brazil you cannot get it for less than EUR3,000 and then you need to be prepare to travel IB, TP or AZ. If you want, for example, AF or BA be prepare to spend more than EUR4,000 and easily more than EUR5,000.

Rgs,


User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11416 posts, RR: 59
Reply 18, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 8275 times:
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Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 17):
Disagee, Lipe. Booking on C Euope-Brazil are very healthy and all airlines.

Could be, but Brazil-Europe isn't it. And we have routes like LHR-GRU that faces very low prices. Less than EUR 2.000,00 for a R/T to GRU or GIG. Only AF/KL and BA does not offer discount C fares nowadays from Brazil to Europe.

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 17):
C bookings Brazil-Europe are very healthy and sell extremely well. Actually, sometimes it is very difficult to find C seats on discount fares. If you buy a C class in European carrier to Brazil

I can give you lots of C discount fare announcements (but i'm sure you get mostly of them thru GapNet). IB use to announce the dates when they have discount fares, TP is selling tickets for US$ 2,900, IB for US$ 2,600, JJ from US$ 2,400 to US$ 3,000, LH for US$ 2,900, AZ for US$ 2,800 (US$ , not EUR). I don't have numbers for Europe-Brazil.

For sure if you look for a last minute ticket the fare will be high. But if you look for a future ticket, you can find a very good deal.

Felipe



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineJog From Netherlands, joined Jul 2005, 273 posts, RR: 7
Reply 19, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 8269 times:

Quoting Willyj (Reply 4):
What are the business class seats like on the MD-11? Are they similar to the 332?



Quoting Donzilasse (Reply 5):
Pretty much the old Varig ones with new seatcovers a la JJ is my understanding. Remember that this only is a temporary solution until the deliveries of the 773,s 2008.

Yes, they are and got new seat covers. For more details see my trip report here: CDG-GRU In J On TAM's "new" MD11 (pics) (by Jog Feb 22 2007 in Trip Reports)

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 16):
I think it declares 85% and even 75% become strange...:

I also read 85%, and guess that this still refers to the A332. The advantage of using the MD11 to MXP is, that they keep the same quality standard on all flights to both MIA and MXP. It would have been somehow weired to sell an F class to MIA in one direction, which is inferior to the C Class in the other direction. Also, Alitalia does neither provide 180 degree flat seats in C nor in-seat monitors in Y. Thus, the MD11 is on this route more compatible than it would have been to MIA, where customers are used to the A332. If the demand is there, it is probably a wise choice.


User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11416 posts, RR: 59
Reply 20, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 8242 times:
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Quoting Jog (Reply 19):
It would have been somehow weired to sell an F class to MIA in one direction, which is inferior to the C Class in the other direction.

Donzilasse comment also about this, seems that one of the top 5 is mixed with one of the other 5 to MIA. And i believe the 5 old A332 (MVA to E) are not so comfortable as the other 5 (MVF, G, H, K and L) on C. Little screens and no AVOD system among other details. Thanks god JFK and LHR uses the best aircrafts.

Quoting Jog (Reply 19):
Also, Alitalia does neither provide 180 degree flat seats in C nor in-seat monitors in Y. Thus, the MD11 is on this route more compatible than it would have been to MIA, where customers are used to the A332. If the demand is there, it is probably a wise choice.

So it was really a wise decision. The M11 can compete against AZ 772, and for sure Y seats on M11 are better than the ones at AZ.

Felipe



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 50
Reply 21, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 8103 times:

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 18):
Could be, but Brazil-Europe isn't it

Lipe, as I mentioned, airlines discount fares for tickets sold in Brazil as opposed to very high fares sold in Europe. You are right about low fares marketed in Brazil and TAM is offering GRU-MXP-GRU C class for USD 2,500 or less than EUR 2,000 - this is surreal. You may also know that for quite sometime now AZ is marketing "buy one C seat get another free". This would never happen in Europe. As I mentioned, for any AF trip to to Brazil fares are easily above EUR 3,000 and even you want to travel Th, Fr, Sa, Su you have to be prepare for fares above EUR 5,000.

You can still get good fares Europe-Brazil for about EUR 2,500 or more than USD 3,000 but then you have to travel TP, IB or AZ.

About TAM low fares, in my opinion, two factors: the airline is not well known in Europe and its business/first class (in my opinion) is not up to the standard offered by AF, BA.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 18):
For sure if you look for a last minute ticket the fare will be high. But if you look for a future ticket, you can find a very good deal.

Business trip is typically last-minute, i.e. less than 3 weeks in advance, and travel dates keep changing. So you can count that although airlines offer discount business tkts in Brazil, they still market quite well high-fares tks.

Quoting Jog (Reply 19):
I also read 85%, and guess that this still refers to the A332

Most certainly. The info I have is 75%. There is no doubt that TAM can fill its flights to Italy.

Quoting Jog (Reply 19):
For more details see my trip report here

Tks for the interesting trip report...it shows that TAM business class on MD-11 in indeed well below AF and BA and proves why TAM is now ranked as 3* according to SkyTrax. Anyway, the MD-11s are a temp solution only, and we can expect a complete retrofit of TAM long-haul starting at the end of 2007, with the two new A330s to be delivered around Oct/2007 alrady in the new retrofit.

Rgs,


User currently offlineRAFVC10 From Spain, joined Sep 2005, 1980 posts, RR: 6
Reply 22, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 8087 times:
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In Amadeus shows that this flight starts operation on March 31 with 332.

No M11 equipment used. From when?



El dia que los gilipollas vuelen, no podremos ver la luz del sol!
User currently offlineMozart From Luxembourg, joined Aug 2003, 2167 posts, RR: 13
Reply 23, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 8071 times:

I have read this thread with a lot of interest. But since I haven't followed the fate and development of TAM, I would like to ask some background questions:

1) On the MD-11: TAM only has 2 MD-11s, right? Will there be more? They all come from Varig? They all kept the RG interior, just the seat cover is new? They have F class? Their comfort is below European carriers, and below TAM's A330? Which other routes will TAM serve with the M11? I have seen it in CDG, I read in the other thread that it may be used to FRA, and then there is MXP. Where else?

2) On the A330: they have 10 aircraft, right? There seem to be different "levels of comfort" - what are the differences? What is JJ's Business Class like overall? And their First? Are all the planes new or second hand?

3) Their future fleet: so it seems they are getting B777s. How many? Which versions? When? Which cabin layout - including F class?

4) Finally: hardiwv, how come you only have 21 respected user ratings?

Sorry if this is like my "TAM for Dummies", but I am very interested in what is going on in Brazilian aviation after the demise of RG. TAM seems to be the new high quality flag carrier, right?


User currently offlinePHKLM From Northern Mariana Islands, joined Dec 2005, 1198 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 8059 times:

Quoting Mozart (Reply 23):
1) On the MD-11: TAM only has 2 MD-11s, right? Will there be more? They all come from Varig? They all kept the RG interior, just the seat cover is new? They have F class? Their comfort is below European carriers, and below TAM's A330? Which other routes will TAM serve with the M11? I have seen it in CDG, I read in the other thread that it may be used to FRA, and then there is MXP. Where else?

They have 2 MD11's. One is to enter the fleet very soon, making a total of three. They are all ex-RG birds.
They still have the RG interiors, though refurbished and the seats have new seat covers. They have a F class cabin which is reportedly worse than the C class cabin on the 332. TAM will use the M11 on CDG, MXP and possibly FRA. It used to run the MIA leg if I'm not mistaking but it will be withdrawn from that route.

Quoting Mozart (Reply 23):
2) On the A330: they have 10 aircraft, right? There seem to be different "levels of comfort" - what are the differences? What is JJ's Business Class like overall? And their First? Are all the planes new or second hand?

TAM has 10 332's, there is supposed to be a difference between the first and latter five. For differences see LipeGIG's posting in this thread. The planes are all new although a few have been leased to Etihad for some time, but those are all back in the JJ fleet.



Quoting Mozart (Reply 23):
3) Their future fleet: so it seems they are getting B777s. How many? Which versions? When? Which cabin layout - including F class?

TAM has a firm order for 4 Boeing 777-300ER's due in 2008 with an option of another 4. I assume these planes will have F class as they will run on the most important routes for TAM. I reckon by the time those planes will enter the fleet TAM is in an alliance to be able to fill these large planes with feeder traffic.

Quoting Mozart (Reply 23):
4) Finally: hardiwv, how come you only have 21 respected user ratings?

Why do I have 0? Big grin


25 Mozart : Not sure, because I just added you to my list! Seriously: great post, very informative, thanks a lot! Yours is the kind of contribution that will mak
26 Rafabozzolla : That is actually good news for me. I've just booked a Fidelidade award ticket CNF-GRU-MIA-YUL daylight on Sep 07 and SFO-MIA-GRU-CNF night flight on O
27 Post contains images Hardiwv : Just added you to my RR The replies to your questions are already given above. Rgs,
28 Post contains images Airdolomiti : Actually, Alitalia flies the MXP-GRU route with 777s, which feature PTVs in all seats in Y. I don't know much about C class on JJ's MD-11s, but AZ's
29 LipeGIG : Their 777-300ER will include a F class. Boeing says Tam will use a 370 seat configuration with 3 classes (for me it seems a little excessive). It's p
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