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Rumour: 772LRs For Sydney Based Airline  
User currently offline2wingtips From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 11371 times:

According to pprune, sourcing the latest edition of Australian Aviation, a Sydney based start-up is about to order 772LRs for Trans-Pacific ops.
That's about it. I have no further confirmation, but it appears unlikely to be Virgin Blue, as they are looking at 773ERs. Trying for a late 2008 inaugural service is also mentioned.
I have not seen the magazine yet and I believe only subscribers have received it at this stage.
A potentially very interesting development. Maybe QF will have 2 Australian competitors Trans-Pacific, as well as Jetstar.
Doesn't leave much room for SQ..........................
I wonder where the 777s are going to come from however. The demand is absolutely intense.

68 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSolnabo From Sweden, joined Jan 2008, 850 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 11301 times:

Why don´t they start a ULR luxury liner with flights SYD-LHR non stop with 7-LR (130-150 pax)?


Micke//   

[Edited 2007-02-15 09:11:52]


Airbus SAS - Love them both
User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12128 posts, RR: 51
Reply 2, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 11215 times:

Quoting Solnabo (Reply 1):
Why don´t they start a ULR luxury liner with flights SYD-LHR non stop with 7-LR (130-150 pax)?

That might be the only way to fly SYD-LHR, both directions, all 12 months.

Maybe they can fly full passenger/cargo loads SYD-ORD/JFK/BOS? SYD-BOS is 8778nm, easily within range of the B-777-200LR.


User currently offlineCHRISBA777ER From UK - England, joined Mar 2001, 5964 posts, RR: 62
Reply 3, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 11091 times:

OK so you want LRs for New York/Houston/Los Angeles/San Francisco/Chicago non-stop from SYD.

Would QF want them? Possibly but you'd have to think if they were going to order it they would done so by now, and it doesnt say how many. I cant see QF buying them just for IAH non-stop.

Would it be a LoCo like Virgin Blue or Jetstar? Unlikely. Probably not big enough to make it worthwhile.

New carrier? Who knows.

I'd say this is more PPrune nonsense from more people desperate to see the LR get an order.



What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
User currently offlineGemuser From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 5619 posts, RR: 6
Reply 4, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 11025 times:

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 3):
I'd say this is more PPrune nonsense from more people desperate to see the LR get an order.

I'm with you Chris! (Makes a nice change  Smile I'll belive it when I see the 772LR in SYD with the big VH on the fuselague and wings.

Even if they can get the aircraft, which is a big IF, late 2008 would still be optimistic for a new start up. First they need an AOC & COA, by the end of this year would be very good work. Only then can they apply for designation by Oz under the bi-lateral, then they need US approval, terminal space at SYD (not easy as by then QF will be in a growth phase as A380 & B787 aircraft arrive) airport arrangements where ever in the US, Oz ETOPS approval, which out of the box is frankly unlikely, etc, etc, etc.

Good luck to who ever, but under 2 years from initial start up to ETOPS TransPacific ops! WOW! (if they do it)

Gemuser



DC23468910;B72172273373G73873H74374475275376377L77W;A319 320321332333343;BAe146;C402;DHC6;F27;L188;MD80MD85
User currently offlinePEET7G From Hungary, joined Jan 2007, 695 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 11005 times:

Maybe it's still Virgin Blue, but rather decided to go with a separate identity, maybe Virgin Pacific? I know they where opting for the 300ER, but maybe they found better business-plan for the 200LRs? I don't see any other new player emerging, and certainly not with such expensive equipments as the 77Ls.


Peet7G
User currently offlineNZ107 From New Zealand, joined Jul 2005, 6406 posts, RR: 39
Reply 6, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 10870 times:

Quoting PEET7G (Reply 5):
Maybe it's still Virgin Blue, but rather decided to go with a separate identity, maybe Virgin Pacific?

Of what I know, the Virgin name can't be used outside of Australia, so it could be Pacific Blue or something along those lines.

Quoting PEET7G (Reply 5):
but maybe they found better business-plan for the 200LRs?

I'm sure the 77W would be just as suitable as the 77L for routes like SYD-LAX. But we'll have to wait and see if this is true information first.

Quoting Solnabo (Reply 1):

I think QF have already looked into that but pushed it aside. I don't see any main players in the Aussie market which would be able to fork out millions for the highest tech planes to fly them half way across the world, surely it must be an established airline.



It's all about the destination AND the journey.
User currently offlineJbguller From Australia, joined Jun 2005, 164 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 10845 times:

Well we know one thing for sure, it can't be OzJet. The planes are too new.  Smile

User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12128 posts, RR: 51
Reply 8, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 10696 times:

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 3):
OK so you want LRs for New York/Houston/Los Angeles/San Francisco/Chicago non-stop from SYD.

Would QF want them? Possibly but you'd have to think if they were going to order it they would done so by now, and it doesnt say how many. I cant see QF buying them just for IAH non-stop.

I think QF will opt for the B-747-800I to fly from SYD to DFW. They have wanted to do this for a while. At DFW they connect into AA's sytem. They don't need CO's sytem in IAH.


User currently offlineCHRISBA777ER From UK - England, joined Mar 2001, 5964 posts, RR: 62
Reply 9, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 10668 times:

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 8):
I think QF will opt for the B-747-800I to fly from SYD to DFW

I'd be very, very surprised if that were to happen.



What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
User currently offlineGemuser From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 5619 posts, RR: 6
Reply 10, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 10639 times:

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 9):
I'd be very, very surprised if that were to happen.

Oh MY GOD! Twice in one thread???

Dead right Chris, it is extremely unlikely that QF will order the B748i (not impossible, but unlikely!). QF do want to fly to DFW but will do it with either the B787 and/or A380 BOTH of which will have the range, are already on order and provide a range of capacity to cope with growth.

Gemuser



DC23468910;B72172273373G73873H74374475275376377L77W;A319 320321332333343;BAe146;C402;DHC6;F27;L188;MD80MD85
User currently offlineSkyhigh From Australia, joined Nov 2005, 235 posts, RR: 6
Reply 11, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 10529 times:

What about Tiger Airways? They seem very confident about taking the domestic market by storm in the near future. Maybe they are getting a little ahead of themselves!  Wink

User currently offlineCHRISBA777ER From UK - England, joined Mar 2001, 5964 posts, RR: 62
Reply 12, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 10516 times:

Quoting Gemuser (Reply 10):
Oh MY GOD! Twice in one thread???

Dead right Chris, it is extremely unlikely that QF will order the B748i (not impossible, but unlikely!). QF do want to fly to DFW but will do it with either the B787 and/or A380 BOTH of which will have the range, are already on order and provide a range of capacity to cope with growth.

Scary.

I thought it and you said it.  Smile



What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 10271 times:

Quoting Gemuser (Reply 10):
it is extremely unlikely that QF will order the B748i

...and you base that statement on what, aside from your own conjecture?

Ever checked the MZFW range-profile on said aircraft? It was basically built for (the likes of) QF.


User currently onlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30577 posts, RR: 84
Reply 14, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 10225 times:
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Quoting Solnabo (Reply 1):
Why don´t they start a ULR luxury liner with flights SYD-LHR non stop with 7-LR (130-150 pax)?

Insufficient demand at the price-points necessary to make it profitable.

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 13):
Ever checked the MZFW range-profile on said aircraft? It was basically built for (the likes of) QF.

Does that allow a routing that does not overfly Mexico? It has been claimed that the fees to overfly Mexico make DFW service prohibitive for QF so any routing would need to be over the US (turn right at SAN) or cross over Central America and then come up the Gulf of Mexico - both adding miles vs. a Mexican overflight route.


User currently offlineZkpilot From New Zealand, joined Mar 2006, 4805 posts, RR: 9
Reply 15, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 10037 times:

Quoting Gemuser (Reply 10):
QF do want to fly to DFW but will do it with either the B787 and/or A380 BOTH of which will have the range, are already on order and provide a range of capacity to cope with growth.

787 yes, A380 no... why do you think QF has only gone for 475 seat config rather than 490-510 like many other airlines? Its not because they are being generous I can tell you! (although it would be a nice thought  Wink hehe). To fly MEL-LAX (or VV), the A380 needs to have less pax onboard to save on weight. MEL (or SYD) - DFW is a considerable jump in distance over LAX...Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting
This is where having a mix of both A380 and 748I would be good for QF... QF is big enough to have both... say 20 of each ie 40 aircraft... QF currently have 24x 744, 6x 744ER, 5x743. As QF do not operate 777 aircraft or A340 aircraft, there is a huge gap in capacity between the A330-300 and A380. Now QF is expected to hold onto at least half of its 744's and all of its 744ERs for the medium term, until all the A380 have arrived...after that QF will have this capacity gap unless it replaces the 744's with 748's. The 787-10 will help a little at the lower end being of similar capacity to a 772. The A380 is just too big to operate on many routes and doesn't have the range of the 748I. QF could go and get the 773ER but that would be leaving it considerably late in the show to be getting a new aircraft type. If Y3 comes around in about 2016 then that might also be an option.

Back on topic... 772LR... Who else besides Virgin/Pacific Blue could possibly be ordering these for a SYD based airline? Its possible that JQ might lease some until the 787s arrive for its TransPac operations (this is in 2008 however so unlikely), but otherwise there is noone else around to do that. NZ (not SYD based) could conceivably use them (they are looking at 773ER at the moment) and could use them from SYD/MEL-LAX, AKL-YVR, AKL-JFK.



56 types. 38 countries. 24 airlines.
User currently offlineACdreamliner From United Kingdom, joined May 2005, 517 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 8663 times:

Quoting NZ107 (Reply 6):
Of what I know, the Virgin name can't be used outside of Australia, so it could be Pacific Blue or something along those lines.

Pacific Blue is used because NZ has looser laws about cabin crew (i.e. the planes based in NZ can carry one less FA than an Oz based aircraft). So any flight into, out off or within NZ is operated by Pacific Blue (needed a different trading name).



Where are you going?
User currently offlineEI321 From Iraq, joined Jul 2009, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 8621 times:

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 8):
I think QF will opt for the B-747-800I to fly from SYD to DFW

For just one route? Have they shown any interest in the aircraft? Would twice the schedule on 788s not be better?


User currently offlineKiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8544 posts, RR: 13
Reply 18, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 8543 times:
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Quoting ACdreamliner (Reply 16):
Pacific Blue is used because NZ has looser laws about cabin crew (i.e. the planes based in NZ can carry one less FA than an Oz based aircraft). So any flight into, out off or within NZ is operated by Pacific Blue (needed a different trading name).

Pacific Blue is also used because when SQ bought their stake in VS there was a clause stating that the Virgin name could not be used on Pacific services ex Australia



Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
User currently offlineEWRCabincrew From United States of America, joined May 2006, 5523 posts, RR: 56
Reply 19, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 8480 times:

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 8):
They don't need CO's sytem in IAH.

Especially since AA and QF are in One World.



You can't cure stupid
User currently offlineJbernie From Australia, joined Jan 2007, 880 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 8095 times:

Quoting Skyhigh (Reply 11):
What about Tiger Airways? They seem very confident about taking the domestic market by storm in the near future. Maybe they are getting a little ahead of themselves!

Basically if Singapore Airlines can't get the approvals, sent in Tiger Airways and do it for them? Would not be surprised with that. They could always blow raspberries at the Aust Govt. Have Tiger fly the route using Singapore 744s. Qantas would probably have a hissy fit if they saw that happen  Smile.

Re OZjet, would an all Business/First 777 setup work on that route? Certainly there is are lots of business travellers, but for the long haul i would think/expect people to be more concerned about their FF status as it is about 16,000 miles roundtrip, nothing to sneeze at, as opposed to taking the odd SYD-MEL flight on a competitors flight if it was cheaper.


User currently offlineJfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8284 posts, RR: 7
Reply 21, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 7921 times:
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Even if LHR to Sydney nonstop doesn't work, there are plenty of other nonstop opportunties in America for 772LR's for QF. Sydney to ORD, JFK, DFW, Toronto and Vancouver could all be QF flights. Miami could be interesting too, with DL ordering 772LR's, Atlanta to Sydney has become a topic possibilty.

User currently offlineZeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 8867 posts, RR: 75
Reply 22, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 7599 times:

Quoting 2wingtips (Thread starter):
According to pprune, sourcing the latest edition of Australian Aviation, a Sydney based start-up is about to order 772LRs for Trans-Pacific ops.

If I were to take a guess that would be a 772LR without windows and associated with a Toll company.

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 15):
787 yes, A380 no... why do you think QF has only gone for 475 seat config rather than 490-510 like many other airlines?

787 no as well to MEL, 787/350/380 could do it via SYD or BNE.

Nil wind distances via airways are :

SYD-DFW is 7632 nm
MEL-DFW is 7957 nm

Need a 8500-9000 nm range aircraft to do DFW-MEL with the winds and routes otherwise lots of stops at AKL. The main reason for the 380 seat layout on QF is to do with their seat design and passenger space, SQ are using a similar seat on their 773ERs, and only get 280ish seats in that and similar to QF on the 380.

Quoting Jbernie (Reply 20):
Basically if Singapore Airlines can't get the approvals, sent in Tiger Airways and do it for them?

Tiger OZ will have to be 51% Australian to fly in Australia on an Australia AOC.

SQ have had an offer to setup or purchase 49% of an airline based in Australia, with Australian registered aircraft, and Australian licenced crews to fly the pacific, naturally paying Australian company tax and operating under Australian asset rules. They have had opportunities in the past like Ansett, and currently VB, they have declined on both.

I dont see what the big deal is, this is the exact strategy they adopted with the Atlantic buying 49% of VS.

In my view its a loss of face issue, the dialogue between Singapore and Australia has been too public and done via the press. They only want to fly the pacific in Singapore registered aircraft, which Australia has granted for freight operations only.

Apart from the 345, none of the current SQ aircraft could fly the pacific to MEL without a payload hit, my SQ friends tell me that they operate their 777 fleet or sub 6200 nm routes, and presently operate the new 773ERs at MTOW out of SIN going to Paris. Need the best part of another 500-1000 nm to do the pacific to MEL with the winds, the yields therefore are not fantastic. QF do this by having 744ER aircraft with about 40 less seats than any SQ 744.



We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
User currently offlineJupiter2 From Australia, joined Jan 2001, 883 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 7199 times:

Zeke,

You maybe right about Toll, but it is basically for one way traffic across the Pacific.

The aircraft would have to route via Asia on the return to the U.S to make the purchase of such an aircraft viable. I don't know how difficult that would be to get the route licenses etc, as freight into Australia is basically open skies.

The main problem for such a freight start up will still be ETOPS approval and the fact that the aircraft will basically fly empty either to Asia, I would assume China and then across the Pacific, or with a minimal load direct back across to the West Coast. The only freighters going direct from Australia to the U.S I believe are Cargolux, unless they route back via Asia now. On the other hand there would be up to 17 flights from the U.S to Australia weekly and they all head out through Asia, taking minimal loads out with them, with the exception maybe of Fedex.

RL


User currently offline2wingtips From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 6936 times:

Quoting Gemuser (Reply 10):
Dead right Chris, it is extremely unlikely that QF will order the B748i (not impossible, but unlikely!). QF do want to fly to DFW but will do it with either the B787 and/or A380 BOTH of which will have the range, are already on order and provide a range of capacity to cope with growth.

The A380 clearly does not have the range to do SYD-DFW year round with a viable payload. Neither does the 748I with the new range at 8,000nm. 789 would appear to be the best alternative for QF on the SYD-DFW route.


25 LTU932 : Let's not forget that QF is in oneworld, which is why connecting with alliance partner AA at DFW would probably make much more sense than connecting
26 2wingtips : Not from my understanding, although I am as doubtful on this venture as many of the previous posters. Pax airline not part of the Toll/Virgin/Qantas
27 HighFlyer9790 : news to me....
28 SunriseValley : I believe there is a viable business plan for the -200LR for a Toll associated carrier. The -200LR could operate at MZFW of 461000lb under the typica
29 Jfk777 : DFW to Australia should be made to work even if a stop at AKL is necessary. It would so much more efficient for connection to the 70% of QF passnegers
30 Zkpilot : and by the time these aircraft are in service, FANS should be well utilised to reduce the wastage on airways. ETOPS requirements are being improved b
31 ConcordeBoy : ...curious as to where you derived this statistic? "Sad"?
32 LAXdude1023 : To be honest, I simply dont believe that. Do you have anything for a source?
33 B787 : Page 14, March 2007 edition of Australian Aviation has it listed. They write that it is a rumour, that 777-200LR orders have been placed with Boeing,
34 777ER : NZ have NO 200LRs on option In regards to DJ, all I'm able to say is, expect an order very very soon
35 Quetzal : From what I have heard, DJ recently began operating the 1:50 ratio of FA/Pax on VH- registered aircraft. They now operate 737-800's with 4 F/A's as o
36 Zeke : Why not ? it has already done SYD-YVR which is FURTHER with a full payload. FANS is already in place, I have been using it for some time.
37 2wingtips : it can't do the westbound DFW/YVR-SYD with a n acceptable payload year round. The 748I with a range of 8,000nm(the same as the A380) was ruled out by
38 ConcordeBoy : ...how so?
39 Zeke : Got no idea what that little gem means, will try some use mental gymnastics to anticipate your actual question... SYD-YVR is 16 nm further than SYD-D
40 OldAeroGuy : [quote=Zeke,reply=39]SYD-YVR is 16 nm further than SYD-DEN along the published airways, the 380 has done SYD-YVR as part of the technical route provin
41 Zeke : My mistake in the post above, SYD-DFW (had something else on my mind when I typed DEN) is less than SYD-YVR, the real distance is closer to 7650 nm,
42 OldAeroGuy : What routing are you using for SYD-YVR? The great circle for SYD-YVR is 6741 nm while SYD-DFW is 7454 nm. As a rule of thumb, airways add about 2% di
43 DiscoverCSG : I wouldn't put it past those "good ole boys" to do just that. They run major connecting operations to TLV and NRT from ATL, and soon ICN and DXB. All
44 Antares : Olderaeroguy, I'm not sure why it would be a secret. Every pilot in QF knows the figures, well, those who break bread and share fine wines with us in
45 Post contains images Jacobin777 : ...that's good news to hear about the A380.. ... lets see how it does in "real world" situations.... ...and I've been saying this ever since QF order
46 Antares : Jacobin, I don't expect Malaysian or Thai to use A380s to Australia for a very long time, nor Qatar. Emirates Yes and Etihad only if they ordered more
47 Jacobin777 : Anteres, Given that CX run only 3x/A330's on the route, if anything, I would expect them to either bump them up to either B773ER's, A340's or B747's b
48 Antares : Jacobin, CX is full all the time, or at least at the times business clients want to fly what is great airline. I'm sure you are right about going up g
49 Post contains images Jacobin777 : Thanks for the insights Antares, I dont' know too much about Australian politics (only from what I read on theaustralian.news.com)... ..which supports
50 Fly_yhm : Hey guys I know there is some question if its Virgin/Pacific Blue but aren't thre airlines Base out of Brisbane as opposed to Sydney? Just a thought I
51 StealthZ : Yes they are.. No one has actually pointed it out in this thread, the article in question does not actually mention Sydney so pprune may have it a li
52 OldAeroGuy : Any word on the payload? Takeoff at 560t is fine, but the fuel to get there depends on the zero fuel weight. Good, but fuel burn depends on zero fuel
53 Antares : OAG, I don't but I'm thinking a few on this forum do know if they wish to share. The TV interviews spoke about simulating a full payload and flying lo
54 2wingtips : Antares, where has your negativity to all things 787 gone? Are QF still being advised of delivery delays, when Boeing are assuring the world this wil
55 XT6Wagon : I recall one of the boeing press releases stating that the windows did change in size, but from what I recall it was more or less the shape of them,
56 Sparklehorse12 : This would have to be DJ...they are launching SYD to SFO or LAX in late 2008....
57 Gemuser : Jacobin, not saying your wrong, but you do relise that if you del CBR and add ADL & Newcastle you have just listed ALL the bigger cities in Oz? (Defi
58 Antares : 2wingtips, Management has said in the Canberra 'save the deal' briefings that it expects the first 787-8 to be in service by late 2008. This is the sa
59 CXfirst : Anyway, DJ isn't Sydney based, but Brisbane based..............Not that it really matters..... -CXfirst
60 Sparklehorse12 : Well aware of this, live in Brisbane. They will launch SYD SFO or LAX first according to a reliable source.
61 Ikramerica : While i don't think QF will take the 748i at this point, they have indeed shown interest in the past for this specific reason. Dixon said they were l
62 Zeke : What I have been told, which I have not been able to confirm was that it was routed basically via SYD- LAX route to YVR, turning north somewhere befo
63 Jacobin777 : ...not arguing your point Gemuser...but given its expansion plans, as well as the amount of B767's and A330's (in fleet or have ordered/leasing)-whic
64 Ruscoe : What is a full load for QF? Somewhere between 475 and 505 seats. It would certainly have needed to land with a lot of fuel. I expect that the ballast
65 Zkpilot : 475 is the seating config for QF A380's
66 OldAeroGuy : With the current RTO's per the TCDS, they can leave at 569t.
67 DAYflyer : That was my first thought that someone was going to try it since Qantas passed on the opportunity to buy this bird.
68 2wingtips : Obviously, QF don't believe the demand is there for such a service. Even if it was, the yield gain would most likely be insufficient to operate the a
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