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Boeing Orders For 2/14/2007  
User currently offlineNYC777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 5803 posts, RR: 47
Posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 8852 times:

Boeing added 5 x 787 for UFO airlines.

http://active.boeing.com/commercial/orders/index.cfm


That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
44 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDAYflyer From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 3807 posts, RR: 3
Reply 1, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 8854 times:

I wonder if these are exercised options or a new, unidentified customer?

Also, any news on the other UFO orders from last week?



One Nation Under God
User currently offlineEI321 From Iraq, joined Jul 2009, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 8753 times:

How come Boeing seems to get way more UFOs than airbus?

User currently offlineAlitalia744 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 4764 posts, RR: 44
Reply 3, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 8740 times:

Quoting EI321 (Reply 2):
How come Boeing seems to get way more UFOs than airbus?

Because Aliens like Boeing better than Airbus?

(It's a JOKE EVERYONE!)



Some see lines, others see between the lines.
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31437 posts, RR: 85
Reply 4, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 8699 times:
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Quoting EI321 (Reply 2):
How come Boeing seems to get way more UFOs than airbus?

Could be down to how each company announces orders. Boeing traditionally does not formally announce an order until the customer does (or the customer informs Boeing they may do so). As such, Boeing lists the plane as "unidentified customer".

Airbus traditionally announces the order when it's signed, whether or not the customer has announced, so they don't need to use the UFO designator.


User currently offlineRedFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4376 posts, RR: 28
Reply 5, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 8654 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 4):
Airbus traditionally announces the order when it's signed, whether or not the customer has announced, so they don't need to use the UFO designator.

Boeing doesn't announce an order, UFO or otherwise, until it is signed either.

I think the difference between the two companies could simply be the terms of their contract. Airbus may simply stipulate in their contracts that they have the right to announce the order upon signing. Boeing, on the other hand, may simply defer to the customer regarding the announcement. In other words, if you want to do business with Airbus, you're going to have to accept the fact that they will announce your purchase once the contract is signed.



My other home is a Piper Cherokee 180C
User currently offlineCHRISBA777ER From UK - England, joined Mar 2001, 5964 posts, RR: 61
Reply 6, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 8637 times:

Quoting NYC777 (Thread starter):
Boeing added 5 x 787 for UFO airlines.

Kuwait?



What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 7, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 8623 times:

Quoting EI321 (Reply 2):
How come Boeing seems to get way more UFOs than airbus?

British Airways doesn't want this to become public yet.  Wink



"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31437 posts, RR: 85
Reply 8, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 8622 times:
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Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 5):
Boeing doesn't announce an order, UFO or otherwise, until it is signed either.

That goes without saying, I would think, so I didn't feel the need to note it.  Smile


User currently offlineEI321 From Iraq, joined Jul 2009, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 8606 times:

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 7):
Quoting EI321 (Reply 2):
How come Boeing seems to get way more UFOs than airbus?

British Airways doesn't want this to become public yet.

.......Because they are the type of airline that will only order 5  Smile !


User currently offlineManni From South Korea, joined Nov 2001, 4221 posts, RR: 22
Reply 10, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 8483 times:

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 5):
In other words, if you want to do business with Airbus, you're going to have to accept the fact that they will announce your purchase once the contract is signed.

Sure, if you dont accept that they'll gladly send you to the competition There are several examples in the past of unidentified orders that have been listed by Airbus. Your theory has absolutely no ground. Until today there are still about 50 Airbus aircraft that have been ordered in 2006 that have not been identified. And I'm not reffering to private jets...

Back on topic, about the 5 unidentified 787s. Could it be Azerbeidjan airways? How many 787s did Azerbeidjan airways said they wanted? 3?

[Edited 2007-02-15 18:20:49]


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User currently offlineEI321 From Iraq, joined Jul 2009, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 8470 times:

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 5):
Boeing, on the other hand, may simply defer to the customer regarding the announcement. In other words, if you want to do business with Airbus, you're going to have to accept the fact that they will announce your purchase once the contract is signed.

Your really jumping the gun there, thats all based on guess work!


User currently offlineRedFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4376 posts, RR: 28
Reply 12, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 8374 times:

Quoting Manni (Reply 10):
Sure, if you dont accept that they'll gladly send you to the competition

Manni, there's really no reason to spew sarcasm; especially since everyone knows your proclivity for all things Airbus. So take the edge off of your knee-jerk defensive reaction just because I mentioned Airbus' name.

What I said does not reflect poorly on Airbus; it is simply their way of doing business. That is not to say they're not willing to negotiate it away once they come to the table. It's simply part of their corporate policy to want to make an announcement -- including the airline's name -- as soon as the ink is set on paper. But I'm sure they will relinquish it if a customer insists.

By way of example, my company does certain things differently than the competition when it comes to contract terms; however, I would never NOT negotiate certain terms if the customer insisted. Especially if I thought it would put us at a competitive disadvantage and risk the entire engagement.



My other home is a Piper Cherokee 180C
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31437 posts, RR: 85
Reply 13, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 8327 times:
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Quoting Manni (Reply 10):
Back on topic, about the 5 unidentified 787s. Could it be Azerbeidjan airways? How many 787s did Azerbeidjan airways said they wanted? 3?

Three 787s and three 737s.

http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/2007/q1/070206d_nr.html


User currently offlineOsiris30 From Barbados, joined Sep 2006, 3192 posts, RR: 25
Reply 14, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 8300 times:

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 5):
I think the difference between the two companies could simply be the terms of their contract. Airbus may simply stipulate in their contracts that they have the right to announce the order upon signing. Boeing, on the other hand, may simply defer to the customer regarding the announcement. In other words, if you want to do business with Airbus, you're going to have to accept the fact that they will announce your purchase once the contract is signed.

The difference is largely due to the fact Boeing updates more quickly. That's all. If Boeing updates every week, there is less time for a formal press announcement. If it takes Airbus 3 weeks, there is more time for the customer to ready a press release.

For multi-billion dollar orders both companies will happily call it a UFO. They don't care. All we are seeing here is a byproduct of how quickly Boeing publishes their orders. Nothing more, nothing less.



I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
User currently offlineEI321 From Iraq, joined Jul 2009, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 8268 times:

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 14):
The difference is largely due to the fact Boeing updates more quickly. That's all. If Boeing updates every week, there is less time for a formal press announcement. If it takes Airbus 3 weeks, there is more time for the customer to ready a press release.

For multi-billion dollar orders both companies will happily call it a UFO. They don't care. All we are seeing here is a byproduct of how quickly Boeing publishes their orders. Nothing more, nothing less.

Probably the best explanation so far.


User currently offlineXT6Wagon From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 3432 posts, RR: 4
Reply 16, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 8223 times:

Boeing doesn't have alot of choice about anoucing orders once they are signed contracts. They have to obey the laws that apply to them, and among them is that they have to annouce sales as they happen as they affect the stock price.

So if Airline A doesn't want thier order annouced for some reason, they can have boeing book them as "UFO" so that Boeing is still within the law, and Airline A has atleast a small possiblity to keep thier role in the order of those frames quiet until they want to annouce it.

There are many reasons to have your order booked UFO, and interestingly one I have seen more than once is that they are not done ordering planes. They firm up some, but need to dig up more money or spit-shine the contracts on the other frames.


Airbus on the otherhand, right or wrong does NOT have to annouce orders as they are signed. So airbus can sit on an order for a longer period of time before having to put it in thier public books. Personaly I think they would be better off with a requirement to post orders as they come in as it seems to lead to better control of the PR aspects... Doesn't remove all the risk for mistakes, but it makes atleast the aspect of when it goes on the public books an easyone. Better reporting of cancelations would also be nice, as it would help aviation nuts keep track of whats real and whats marketing fluff. Of course its alot easier to fluff the cancel numbers even with a fairly strict accounting laws, so this is more or less wishful thinking on my part than any real need.


User currently offlineMah584jr From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 513 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 8194 times:

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 14):
For multi-billion dollar orders both companies will happily call it a UFO. They don't care. All we are seeing here is a byproduct of how quickly Boeing publishes their orders. Nothing more, nothing less.

They simply have different ways of accounting for their aircraft. Boeing recognizes the transaction as a UFO and debits its UFO first, then credits it later to the purchasing airline. Airbus will wait until the airline announces(I'm not really certain of their accounting practices).

Whether Boeing or Airbus put something in the UFO account or not has nothing to do with a contract. It has to do with their own company's accounting principles.


User currently offlineBoeingFever777 From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 409 posts, RR: 53
Reply 18, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 8194 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 4):
Could be down to how each company announces orders. Boeing traditionally does not formally announce an order until the customer does (or the customer informs Boeing they may do so). As such, Boeing lists the plane as "unidentified customer".

Makes the best sense... I've heard that also.

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 7):
British Airways doesn't want this to become public yet. Wink

Please... Did Willie make up his mind and if so i would hope BA would place a larger order than that?

Why has not the UPS order been added?



Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre.
User currently offlineEI321 From Iraq, joined Jul 2009, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 8137 times:

Quoting BoeingFever777 (Reply 23):
Why has not the UPS order been added?

Maybe they just have not signed it yet.


User currently offlineOsiris30 From Barbados, joined Sep 2006, 3192 posts, RR: 25
Reply 20, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 8157 times:

Quoting BoeingFever777 (Reply 23):
Why has not the UPS order been added?

Given the accounting rules Boeing has to follow it must not be finalized yet. Probably just paperwork I would guess.

Quoting Mah584jr (Reply 21):
They simply have different ways of accounting for their aircraft. Boeing recognizes the transaction as a UFO and debits its UFO first, then credits it later to the purchasing airline. Airbus will wait until the airline announces(I'm not really certain of their accounting practices).

Like I said Boeing announces faster. It's just a by product of the accounting rules each has to follow, with the American rules being more 'aggressive'. But Boeing can't NOT show an order that is firm legally. Airbus has more leeway with their announcing rules.

At the end of the day, because of this, Boeing ends up booking more as UFOs simply because the customer's haven't had a chance to get their PR in order (or on rare occasion may wish to remain secret for as long as possible). If the customer says dont' show our name you get a UFO. It's not like the status of the order is uncertain and Boeing obviously knows who signed the contract. They are just honoring their customers' desires to be unnamed until some later date.



I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
User currently offlineRedFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4376 posts, RR: 28
Reply 21, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 8072 times:

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 14):
The difference is largely due to the fact Boeing updates more quickly. That's all. If Boeing updates every week, there is less time for a formal press announcement. If it takes Airbus 3 weeks, there is more time for the customer to ready a press release.

For multi-billion dollar orders both companies will happily call it a UFO. They don't care. All we are seeing here is a byproduct of how quickly Boeing publishes their orders. Nothing more, nothing less.

I think the issue is a little more complex than putting together a simple press release. Boeing traditionally has had more UFO's and they've even made it a point to say the choice of when an announcement is made is entirely up to the customer. If you recall, in 2000, which was the first year Airbus overtook them in orders (I think it was in 2000), they pulled 189 UFO's out of their hat at the end of December causing Airbus to howl that they (Boeing) were playing tricks. At the time, Boeing would not even announce an order, UFO or otherwise, unless the customer was ready to come forth. After that year Boeing went on record as saying UFO orders will be announced, only that they will remain UFOs.

So while Airbus has UFO's, traditionally I believe Boeing has had far more and it goes beyond the issue of how often they report their numbers. At the end of 2006, Airbus had approximately 50 UFOs on the books. As of the end of January, Boeing had 156 UFO's. Less the January UFO orders, at the end of 2006 Boeing still had almost 3X as many UFOs as Airbus.



My other home is a Piper Cherokee 180C
User currently offlineIAHFLYER From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 321 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 6868 times:

Is it just me or just one narrowbody order just creepy?


Little airports with the big jets are the best!! Floyd
User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1001 posts, RR: 51
Reply 23, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 6786 times:

Quoting IAHFLYER (Reply 22):
Is it just me or just one narrowbody order just creepy?

Creepy? It isn't uncommon at all for an airline to exercise a single purchase option, especially with narrowbody types.


User currently offlineTradewindL1011 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 179 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 6707 times:

Quoting BoeingFever777 (Reply 18):
Why has not the UPS order been added?

It actually has been "added". Boeing announced it today but after they released this week's order numbers. The UPS order will thus not be counted until next week's orders.

http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/2007/q1/070215c_nr.html

~Trades


25 Manni : You come up with a theory that can be disproved faster then I can say 'Airbus' and I shouldn't be allowed to have a laugh with it? Who are you kiddin
26 Osiris30 : That's the reason for the vast majority of it. Some of it also has to do with the nature of orders each has been signing lately. The 787 is a game ch
27 RedFlyer : Ok, so I'm waiting for it to be disproved. And not just by another counter-theory. Well, as I stated in my post, Airbus currently has around 50 UFOs.
28 BoeingFever777 : Excellent News! Guess the big 5X announcement about the A380 is coming soon?
29 AMSSFO : The UFO orders of Airbus were for only 7 customers, of which two (Air One, CIT) already have been identified. Four orders have been on the books for
30 Post contains images Glideslope : ...and that statement in no way disproves it. You give yourself too much credit Manni. Try, IMO once in a while. This entire subject continues to poi
31 Manni : You wrote... That theory is factual incorrect. Yesterday an undisclosed order, announced at 'Airbus' 2006 results' press conference and booked in dec
32 Gbfra : *ROFL* This really funny. What do you think PR people are trained for? Have you ever seen such a press release? It's really not a big deal and in mos
33 RedFlyer : You keep repeating a point that I've already said is NOT hard-wired. Airbus may WANT to announce the cusotmer's identity and will negotiate for the o
34 Osiris30 : @gbfra: I used to be responsible for signing off on press releases. I know exactly what goes into them, and things like aircraft orders (unless they a
35 Post contains images Hamlet69 : No personal offense, but this is nonsense. There is no U.S. law that stipulates that Boeing has to announce an order the day it is signed. If there w
36 TeamAmerica : Agreed. Most of the misunderstanding about this stems from the confusion over Sarbanes-Oxley. As I understand it, an enterprise is only obligated to
37 Glom : They aren't getting many. What's happened?
38 Post contains images Stitch : Must be saving them up for Paris...
39 Gbfra : I'm used to this strategy of yours. Every time somebody demonstrates that you are talking plain nonsense your response is: "Ah you're an Airbus fan."
40 XT6Wagon : I It is my understanding that they have they have a reasonable time period to do it. Given the way even minor orders affect the future of the company,
41 Ikramerica : And thus, because they developed a standard practice of updating weekly, and posting UFOs, and went on record with this policy, they are now obligate
42 XT6Wagon : While I agree that is what happened, I don't have an issue with this as airbus pays for this with the risk that they WON'T get a signature the month
43 Manni : And that's why Airbus will not do what was suggested in the post you replied to. Telling airlines to delay the signing of an order so they can have o
44 FUN2FLY : What about the 95 UFO's still unidentified from 2006? Any ideas on whose those are?
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