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The Caravelle Ever Used For Transatlantic Flight?  
User currently offlineLuvAir From Germany, joined Oct 2006, 22 posts, RR: 0
Posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 10016 times:

Being a short/medium range aircraft, was the Sud Aviation Caravelle ever used for transatlantic crossings (with refueling in Iceland)?

37 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineBreiz From France, joined Mar 2005, 1914 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 10012 times:

Quoting LuvAir (Thread starter):
transatlantic crossings

If you mean just that, then yes for demonstration and delivery purposes, the Caravelle did crossed the Atlantic Ocean.
If you mean commercial crossing, the answer is no.


User currently offlineLuvAir From Germany, joined Oct 2006, 22 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 9992 times:

I thought of the possibility of scheduled commercial passenger flights.
Wikipedia told me that the range was 2900km (Caravelle 10R) so I thought it might have been possible...


User currently offlineMainMAN From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2005, 2097 posts, RR: 5
Reply 3, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 9987 times:

Not many Caravelles flew in North America. United had some, and if you search the photo database, there are a couple of pics of Atlanta Skylarks.

User currently offlineA342 From Germany, joined Jul 2005, 4680 posts, RR: 3
Reply 4, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 9972 times:

Quoting LuvAir (Reply 2):

Back then, there was no ETOPS. On top of that, it wouldn't have been economical.



Exceptions confirm the rule.
User currently offlineBreiz From France, joined Mar 2005, 1914 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 9961 times:

Quoting LuvAir (Reply 2):
I thought of the possibility of scheduled commercial passenger flights.

To my knowledge, Caravelle was never used on commercial services across the North or South Atlantic, although Caravelle was used both in the US and in South America.
The Caravelle assigned to the GLAM (President and ministers transportation) did cross the Atlantic, but that was not commercial flights


User currently offlineMEA-707 From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4304 posts, RR: 36
Reply 6, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 9961 times:

Sterling used their Caravelles regularly on flights to the US in the early 1970s, with stops in Iceland and/or around Gander.
Probably charters to Florida and so on.



nobody has ever died from hard work, but why take the risk?
User currently offlineSR100 From UK - England, joined Dec 2005, 109 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 9927 times:

Sterling's first transatlantic flight took place on 23 June 1970, from Copenhagen to Omaha, Nebraska, with fuel stops at Keflavik and Gander. The flight was operated with a Caravelle 10 B3, fitted with centre section fuel tanks and JT8D-9s.

In December 1970, Sterling set a stage-length record for the Caravelle when it flew 99 passengers from Oslo to Gander, a distance of 2,268nm (4,200km), in 5 h 33min. This was the first non-stop across the Atlantic in a commercial service.

50 transatlantic charter flights were operated in 1971. Keflavik was the usual stop on these transatlantic flights, were passengers had a meal while the aircraft was being refueled.

Sterling's route map of 1972 shows the following North American destinations: Chicago, Toronto and Hartford, along with Sondrestromfjord, all being served through Keflavik.

Source: The Complete Story of the Caravelle by John Wegg, published by Airways International, Inc



My favourite planes flown: Lockheed 188 Electra, Tridents, VC-10, B-707, L-1011, A330, E90 + Concorde
User currently offlineLawnDart From United States of America, joined May 2005, 970 posts, RR: 3
Reply 8, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 9826 times:

Just a little trivia, and no it's not really transatlantic, but Air France served MIA and possibly JFK from the French Caribbean with Caravelles...

User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24858 posts, RR: 22
Reply 9, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 9745 times:

Quoting SR100 (Reply 7):
Sterling's first transatlantic flight took place on 23 June 1970, from Copenhagen to Omaha, Nebraska, with fuel stops at Keflavik and Gander. The flight was operated with a Caravelle 10 B3, fitted with centre section fuel tanks and JT8D-9s.

Sterling was also one of the very few carriers to operate the B727 on transatlantic routes.

Quoting MainMAN (Reply 3):
Not many Caravelles flew in North America. United had some

UA had 20 Caravelles, the only North American customer. All delivered 1961-62 and retired 1970-72. Interestingly, they were named for cities in France and the name was in French. UA Caravelles below and C/N, delivery/retirement dates and names.

N1001U 86/74 05/61 02/71 VILLE DE TOULOUSE
N1002U 87/76 06/61 05/70 VILLE DE CAHORS
N1003U 88/79 07/61 11/71 VILLE DE MARSEILLE
N1004U 89/80 07/61 12/71 VILLE DE PARIS
N1005U 90/84 08/61 01/72 VILLE DE GRENOBLE
N1006U 91/85 08/61 02/72 VILLE DE SAINTES
N1007U 92/86 08/61 05/70 VILLE DE COUNTENCES
N1008U 93/88 09/61 03/72 VILLE DE ROCHEFORT
N1009U 94/89 10/61 03/72 VILLE DE ROUEN
N1010U 95/91 10/61 01/72 VILLE DE STRASBOURG
N1011U 96/92 10/61 10/71 VILLE DE DIJON
N1012U 97/93 11/61 03/71 VILLE DE LILLE
N1013U 98/94 11/61 01/72 VILLE DE ARLES
N1014U 99/95 11/61 12/71 VILLE DE NICE
N1015U 100/96 12/61 12/70 VILLE DE SAINT-NAZAIRE
N1016U 101/97 12/61 01/72 VILLE DE NANTES
N1017U 102/98 12/61 12/70 VILLE DE CANNES
N1018U 103/99 01/62 01/72 VILLE DE BORDEAUX
N1019U 104/100 01/62 03/72 VILLE DE LYON
N1020U 114/103 02/62 03/72 VILLE DE CALAIS


User currently offlineLuvAir From Germany, joined Oct 2006, 22 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 9683 times:

That's interesting stuff and a great read. Thanks a lot everybody!

Quoting A342 (Reply 4):
Back then, there was no ETOPS.

It's my understanding that ETOPS start when twins are more than 60 minutes away from a suitable airport they could divert to. So did the Caravelle get ETOPS or some comparable certification at some point when Sterling operated them on a regular basis across the Atlantic?


User currently offlineA342 From Germany, joined Jul 2005, 4680 posts, RR: 3
Reply 11, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 9591 times:

Quoting LuvAir (Reply 10):
It's my understanding that ETOPS start when twins are more than 60 minutes away from a suitable airport they could divert to. So did the Caravelle get ETOPS or some comparable certification at some point when Sterling operated them on a regular basis across the Atlantic?

I don't know how they operated it, to my knowledge, there was no such certification. But on the other hand, maybe they simply didn't care ! At least, it seems it hasn't caused an outcry like 12 years later when the 767 and A310 flew across the Atlantic as twins !

Have a look at this website: http://gc.kls2.com . Play around with different routings and the ETOPS 60 setting and you can draw your own conclusions.



Exceptions confirm the rule.
User currently offlineN770WD From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 126 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 9535 times:

Quoting A342 (Reply 11):
I don't know how they operated it, to my knowledge, there was no such certification. But on the other hand, maybe they simply didn't care ! At least, it seems it hasn't caused an outcry like 12 years later when the 767 and A310 flew across the Atlantic as twins !

You don't need ETOPS 120 today if you refuel at KEF. You're already north enough to stay within 60 minutes of alternates.


User currently offlineCV990 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 9528 times:

Hi!

If there was an airline that would fly literally around the world with their Caravelles Sterling was the one!!! North America, Middle East, Far East...those guys streched the capabilities of the Caravelle all over!
regards


User currently offlineA342 From Germany, joined Jul 2005, 4680 posts, RR: 3
Reply 14, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 9522 times:

Quoting N770WD (Reply 12):
You don't need ETOPS 120 today if you refuel at KEF. You're already north enough to stay within 60 minutes of alternates.

Apparently a direct OSL-YQX flight was also made, and that one was clearly outside the ETOPS 60 limit.

And, assuming no detour is made, KEF-YQX is also out of the 60 minutes limit.



Exceptions confirm the rule.
User currently offlineScooter01 From Norway, joined Nov 2006, 1199 posts, RR: 8
Reply 15, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 9489 times:
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Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 9):
Sterling was also one of the very few carriers to operate the B727 on transatlantic routes.

So did Wardair -I remember seeing their CF-FUN in Oslo quite a few times in the late 60es
(I remember the reg because I thought it was kind of funny) Big grin

Scooter



"We all have a girl and her name is nostalgia" - Hemingway
User currently offlineTeixeim From United States of America, joined May 2005, 131 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 9372 times:

I seem to recall that Varig operated the Caravelle between North America and Brazil for a short time in the 60s. It was a multi-stop route for sure. Perhaps someone else can confirm - a quick web search did not confirm my memory.

User currently offlineTimz From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 6790 posts, RR: 7
Reply 17, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 9307 times:

Quoting A342 (Reply 14):
Apparently a direct OSL-YQX flight was also made, and that one was clearly outside the ETOPS 60 limit.

Depends what the allowed alternates are.

Quoting Teixeim (Reply 16):
seem to recall that Varig operated the Caravelle between North America and Brazil for a short time

Started in 1959, before they got their 707-420.


User currently offlineTristarSteve From Sweden, joined Nov 2005, 3980 posts, RR: 34
Reply 18, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 9272 times:

Quoting LuvAir (Reply 10):
It's my understanding that ETOPS start when twins are more than 60 minutes away from a suitable airport they could divert to. So did the Caravelle get ETOPS or some comparable certification at some point when Sterling operated them on a regular basis across the Atlantic?

I used to depart TWA B767 from ARN to JFK. Usually ETOPS, but about once a month we had occasion to depart them non-ETOPS due to some MEL restriction. The increased flight time to keep in the 60 min rule was about 15mins. It was usually not worth delaying the aircraft to repair it and get it ETOPS. It was cheaper to depart it on time non-ETOPS.
I assume that Sterling used the same routes.
The normal route from ARN to JFK is overhead Iceland and Greenland anyway.


User currently offline797charter From Denmark, joined Jun 2005, 219 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 9266 times:

Quoting CV990 (Reply 13):
those guys streched the capabilities of the Caravelle all over!

Thats right, - and even more than most people know.
They even discussed a "double-decked" version with passengers sitting one-by-one in part of the luggage compartment, flying from Scandinavia to Spain/Mallorca. Entrance by the airstairs in the tail. But due to some issues with security never in production!



Keep it clear of the propellers
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24858 posts, RR: 22
Reply 20, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 9192 times:

Quoting Timz (Reply 17):
Quoting Teixeim (Reply 16):
seem to recall that Varig operated the Caravelle between North America and Brazil for a short time

Started in 1959, before they got their 707-420.

Panair do Brasil, the other major carrier in Brazil until it was shut down by the government in 1965, also operated the Caravelle. Pan Am owned 30% of Panair do Brasil (thus their name) until 1961 when it was taken over by the government. At one time, it was the largest airline in South America. They were the Brazilian flag carrier to Europe until their shutdown in 1965, when their Europe routes were transferred to Varig.

Interesting article below from TIME magazine archives below describing Panair do Brasil's shutdown and the airline situation in Brazil in 1965.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/ar...171,833492,00.html?promoid=googlep

The tail of a Panair do Brasil Caravelle is visible to the left of the RG Caravelle in the following photo, as is one of their DC-8-33s in the background.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © A V Pettit



Quoting Scooter01 (Reply 15):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 9):
Sterling was also one of the very few carriers to operate the B727 on transatlantic routes.

So did Wardair -I remember seeing their CF-FUN in Oslo quite a few times in the late 60es
(I remember the reg because I thought it was kind of funny)

Yes, I'm sure Wardair was the first operator of the 727 on Atlantic routes, with a fuel stop in Iceland or Greenland. I grew up in Edmonton which was Wardair's headquarters (and birthplace of their founder,Max Ward, who still lives there at age 85). I watched the delivery ceremony of CF-FUN from the observation deck of the downtown Edmonton Municipal Airport (YXD, now called City Centre Airport) in April 1966. It was both Wardair's first jet and the first Boeing jet sold in Canada.

Coincidentally, relevant to discussion of RG's Caravelles above, CF-FUN was later operated for many years by RG's domestic subsidiary,Cruzeiro do Sul, after a period with Braniff.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Dave Jones
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © John Varndell



View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Vito Cedrini
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Jose Luiz Junior



User currently offlineScooter01 From Norway, joined Nov 2006, 1199 posts, RR: 8
Reply 21, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 9045 times:
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Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 20):
Yes, I'm sure Wardair was the first operator of the 727 on Atlantic routes, with a fuel stop in Iceland or Greenland. I grew up in Edmonton which was Wardair's headquarters (and birthplace of their founder,Max Ward, who still lives there at age 85). I watched the delivery ceremony of CF-FUN from the observation deck of the downtown Edmonton Municipal Airport (YXD, now called City Centre Airport) in April 1966. It was both Wardair's first jet and the first Boeing jet sold in Canada.

Coincidentally, relevant to discussion of RG's Caravelles above, CF-FUN was later operated for many years by RG's domestic subsidiary,Cruzeiro do Sul, after a period with Braniff.

THAT was interresting information, -thanx!
I have some B/W pics of it in a shoebox somewhere from my days of sneaking out on the tarmac with my old Yashica Minister old  It was always something special to see birds from faraway places in Oslo.

Thanx again
Scooter



"We all have a girl and her name is nostalgia" - Hemingway
User currently offlinePhilb From Ireland, joined May 1999, 2915 posts, RR: 13
Reply 22, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 8783 times:

The Wardair 727 used to regularly fly from Gatwick and Manchester to Canada with the standard fuel stop being in Sondre Stromfjord. Keflavik would be used if Stromfjord was marginal as it sometimes was in late Spring and early autumn.

In the summers of 1968/9 Trans International used 727s from the US to Gatwick and Manchester on a regular charter flight programme and American Flyers B727s were also frequent performers during the same period.

Whilst the Sterling Caravelles and the odd French Air Force flight carried passengers across the Atlantic can anyone confirm that SAS used to operate their Caravelles transatlantic - at least as far as Greenland on their Copenhagen to Sondre Stromfjord route? I'm fairly confident they did so in the 1960s but can't find a reference. I'm prompted to ask because they are returning to the Copenhagen - Sondre Stromfjord route this summer, after a five year break, with a modern equivalent - the A319.

.


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24858 posts, RR: 22
Reply 23, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 8377 times:

Quoting Philb (Reply 22):
can anyone confirm that SAS used to operate their Caravelles transatlantic - at least as far as Greenland on their Copenhagen to Sondre Stromfjord route? I'm fairly confident they did so in the 1960s but can't find a reference. I'm prompted to ask because they are returning to the Copenhagen - Sondre Stromfjord route this summer, after a five year break, with a modern equivalent - the A319.

As I recall, SK used the DC-8 on the CPH-SFJ route (SFJ now known as Kangerlussuaq) and then the 767 before suspending service a few years ago. I'm not certain but I doubt their Caravelles ever operated to SFJ. I am fairly sure their early-model Caravelles would not have had adequate range, especially considering the often extreme weather conditions in Greenland and alternate airports being as much as 800 miles from SFJ, and also prone to similar weather conditions. I wouldn't be surprised if SK DC-8s and 767s on the CPH-SFJ route often carried enough fuel to permit a diversion back to CPH when necessary. A Caravelle certainly couldn't do that.

[Edited 2007-02-18 02:52:32]

User currently offlineClipperNo1 From Germany, joined May 1999, 672 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 7053 times:

Quoting A342 (Reply 14):
Apparently a direct OSL-YQX flight was also made, and that one was clearly outside the ETOPS 60 limit.



Quoting Timz (Reply 17):
Depends what the allowed alternates are.

I guess that Narsarsuaq, Greenland could've handled a Caravelle. It still a prefered stop-over for Lears ferrying across the Atlantic.



"I really don't know one plane from the other. To me they are just marginal costs with wings."� Alfred Kahn, 1977
25 Philb : Thanks Viscount 724. I raised the point because, in 1960, my father flew to Stockholm on a SAS Caravelle from Heathrow.. He brought home a SAS public
26 Edina : Do you have any more info on this project?? Having worked on the Super12s with IT it beats me how they could have got any more than 128/131 pax into
27 Timz : And if it was an allowed alternate then staying within 400 nm doesn't require a big detour (on a transatlantic flight west from Scandinavia, anyway).
28 SkyyMaster : I have a July 1962 issue of the OAG with this Varig Caravelle routing (I can't recall some of the airport codes off the top of my head so I'll just l
29 OldAeroGuy : Sondre Stromfjord and Narsarsuaq were important alternates even in the days of 120 min. ETOPS. As others have noted, along with KEF, they made Trans-
30 CF6PPE : ETOPS wasn't known or designed until the -80's when the A300's were already flying. What existed for twin engine equipment was the so-called 60 minute
31 Timz : A US rule, applying to all flights to/from the US? When did it start?
32 BOAC911 : Positively yes. VARIG did fly the Caravelle to North America in the early 1960's. Not nonstop of course. The Caravelle was relegated mostly to short
33 EXAAUADL : Begining in 1959, Varig actually flew Caravelles From RIO to NYC, via somewhere in northern brasil, aruba and I think Miami
34 Timz : It was Rio to Belem to Port of Spain to Nassau to IDL.
35 PPPDL : Panair do Brasil was, indeed, Brazil's largest carrier up until the 60's, but they were never taken up by the government. The Pan Am interest was bou
36 Viscount724 : Thanks for the clarification. It was difficult to find much detailed information on Panair do Brasil's history.
37 Milesrich : Sterling bought the majority (13 of 20) of UA's Caravelle VIR's and used them for charter including transatlantic via Iceland. When United sold them,
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