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PHX Expansion Ok'd By City Council  
User currently offlineCactus742 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 240 posts, RR: 0
Posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 2933 times:

"Phoenix council authorizes $2.9 billion airport expansion"

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/0220skyharbor-ON.html

It includes a $1.1B automated, driverless train system and a new 33-gate terminal to replace T2.

Airlines' cost per enplaned passenger rises from $4.65 to $7 or $8 by 2016.

$4.50 per passenger facility fee for every ticket originating at PHX that could rise to $6.

WN and US: not happy.

[Edited 2007-02-21 06:26:28]


Do not take life too seriously. You will never get out of it alive.
27 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineHPLASOps From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 2901 times:

Quoting Cactus742 (Thread starter):
WN and US: not happy.

The two largest airlines at the airport will end up paying the most for a bill that will only benefit them minorly. The bulk of it is for replacing T2. I've never been in T2, I don't know what kind of shape it's in and how dire of a need replacement is, but to double rent for everyone to rebuild a terminal that the two biggest carriers won't ever use seems a bit steep.


User currently offlineTransWorldSTL From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 568 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 2881 times:

Quoting HPLASOps (Reply 1):
I've never been in T2, I don't know what kind of shape it's in and how dire of a need replacement is, but to double rent for everyone to rebuild a terminal that the two biggest carriers won't ever use seems a bit steep.

From what I remember, it's pretty rundown, but I think the airport authority is mostly at fault for that. They built it completely too small (just like all the other terminals), and now they're screwed because they need more gates.

I remember flying down to PHX on TWA right before Terminal 1 was torn down, and I couldn't believe how they could let the terminal just decay like it had. That seems to be a major problem with all the terminals.


User currently offlineRedTailDTW From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 757 posts, RR: 3
Reply 3, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 2882 times:

Quoting HPLASOps (Reply 1):
but to double rent for everyone to rebuild a terminal that the two biggest carriers won't ever use seems a bit steep.

Isn't Southwest one of the few carriers that will move to the new terminal?



Northwest Airlines. Now your flying smart!
User currently offlineAirTranTUS From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 2876 times:

Quoting HPLASOps (Reply 1):
The two largest airlines at the airport will end up paying the most for a bill that will only benefit them minorly. The bulk of it is for replacing T2. I've never been in T2, I don't know what kind of shape it's in and how dire of a need replacement is, but to double rent for everyone to rebuild a terminal that the two biggest carriers won't ever use seems a bit steep.

T2 currently houses the UA, CO, AS, AC(?), and Great Lakes gates. At one time I presume there were many shops in the terminal, but now most are drywalled over with local adverts painted on them. The gate waiting areas are not the largest, esp. when CO has 2 738's and an ERJ getting ready to leave around the same time. The terminal does have an excellent view of the south runways from a large set of windows on the south end.

Those new cost are more reason to not fly US from TUS unless you connect in LAS.


User currently offlineCactus742 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 240 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 2868 times:

Here's the FAA report: http://phoenix.gov/skyharborairport/about/PHX_Record_of_Decision.pdf

I thought I had read somewhere that WN would move out of T4 and into the new terminal but I can't find it anywhere.

Quoting TransWorldSTL (Reply 2):
I think the airport authority is mostly at fault for that. They built it completely too small (just like all the other terminals), and now they're screwed because they need more gates.

T2, which was built in 1962, has 14 gates. Yes, it is undersized, but seriously, what could be expected of Phoenix in the early 60s? Blaming Phoenix (or any other city for that matter) for building an undersized terminal by today's standards 45 years ago is not only expected, but it doesn't do much good.

[Edited 2007-02-21 06:53:36]

[Edited 2007-02-21 06:55:04]


Do not take life too seriously. You will never get out of it alive.
User currently offlineTransWorldSTL From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 568 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 2859 times:

Quoting Cactus742 (Reply 5):
I thought I had read somewhere that WN would move out of T4 and into the new terminal but I can't find it anywhere.

It was mentioned in a thread from a couple days ago.. The news article said the plans were for either WN or US to move out of T4 and into the new one.


User currently offlineRedTailDTW From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 757 posts, RR: 3
Reply 7, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 2780 times:

Quoting TransWorldSTL (Reply 6):
It was mentioned in a thread from a couple days ago.. The news article said the plans were for either WN or US to move out of T4 and into the new one.

Well I think that US has too big of an operation to be consolidated into that one 33 Gate terminal.



Northwest Airlines. Now your flying smart!
User currently offlineHPLASOps From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 2735 times:

Quoting RedTailDTW (Reply 7):
Well I think that US has too big of an operation to be consolidated into that one 33 Gate terminal.

We could move if we split YV and mainline operations. Seperately, either airline could fit in those 33 gates, but that causes an extra burden on our pax who make tight connections from mainline to express, and vice versa.


User currently offlineSocalfive From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 2698 times:

I used to fly in and out of T2 in the early 80s on Hughes/Republic and it was a mess THEN, I can't imagine how bad it is now. It was built before jetways then remodeled, remodeled, added onto, remodeled and added onto yet again. It's narrow, no good size departure lounges as previously mentioned and just dark and dingy overall. It handles probably 5 times the passenger traffic it was designed to and has long ago passed it's day in the sun.

User currently offlineMauilono From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 46 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 2673 times:

Terminal 2 just had another facelift, new carpeting and such. The security checkpoint was also redone, the only decent restaurant before security was removed.

User currently offlineJonnyWishbone From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2007, 143 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 2658 times:

Am transfering from BA to America West to Vegas next month... How traumatic is this and by the sounds of it, do I need my tetanus and hepatitis injections for this run down third world shack???!!!!

OR will I be pleasantly surprised?


User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 12, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 2640 times:

Quoting Cactus742 (Thread starter):
a new 33-gate terminal to replace T2.

I thought they were REFIRBISHING and expanding T2, not replacing it.

Quoting Cactus742 (Thread starter):
WN and US: not happy.

Tough it up, US & WN!

Quoting RedTailDTW (Reply 3):
Isn't Southwest one of the few carriers that will move to the new terminal?

They just GOT a new concourse on the west side of T4. What more do they need?!

Quoting Mauilono (Reply 10):
Terminal 2 just had another facelift, new carpeting and such. The security checkpoint was also redone, the only decent restaurant before security was removed.

 checkmark  Just expand the place, dont tear it down.

Quoting JonnyWishbone (Reply 11):
Am transfering from BA to America West to Vegas next month...

If you are flying through PHX from BA to HP, you'll be fine. Everything is within T4.



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineDesertJets From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 7811 posts, RR: 16
Reply 13, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 2588 times:

T2 cannot be expanded or remodeled again. The site that it sits on is too small and you would have to rework the roadways again to expand the terminal building. At that point why not build a completely new structure that can be more easily expanded over the following years. Ultimately you're dealing with a building that is nearly 50 years old, that was not built with the passenger numbers the terminal sees in mind.

As for the new fees, as long as the remain in line w/ other airports in comparable markets then I fail to see what the issue is. Of course tenants don't want to pay more rents, but if the market will bear more, and those increased rents will lead to better facilities, then the City of Phoenix needs to make that move.



Stop drop and roll will not save you in hell. --- seen on a church marque in rural Virginia
User currently offlineHZ747300 From Hong Kong, joined Mar 2004, 1711 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 2537 times:
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I will miss the 'outdoor' UA gate... But, alas, it definitely is time for a new T2. If WN & US aren't happy maybe they can move their operations to Tucson or Safford as a protest.


Keep on truckin'...
User currently offlineScottB From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 6826 posts, RR: 32
Reply 15, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 2493 times:

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 12):
They just GOT a new concourse on the west side of T4. What more do they need?!

Well, the issue is that once the S1 concourse is added to T4, there's no longer any room for expansion for either WN or US. WN currently uses 24 gates in T4 while US uses a bit over 50. US won't fit into a 33-gate terminal, and their growth would be constrained if WN stays in T4. Having to shuttle between terminals isn't exactly passenger-friendly, either.

Quoting Cactus742 (Thread starter):
It includes a $1.1B automated, driverless train system

WTH is up with a billion-dollar train that none of the airlines at PHX need?!

Quoting DesertJets (Reply 13):
As for the new fees, as long as the remain in line w/ other airports in comparable markets then I fail to see what the issue is. Of course tenants don't want to pay more rents

Do you think the passengers want to pay more as well just so some airport managers can stroke their egos? Sure, replacing an outmoded terminal makes tons of sense given that passenger numbers through PHX will continue to increase. But what doesn't make sense is spending $2.9 billion for a net increase of about 20 gates when IAH did the same (along with an entirely new international arrivals facility) for about a quarter of the cost.


User currently offlineJunction From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 778 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 2470 times:

Is AA still the only carrier using the south concourse of terminal 3? When HP moved to terminal 4, AA was left using only 3 of 10 gates in that location, which would be plenty of room for all the carriers currently in terminal 2. Has the terminal 3 south concourse underutilization situation changed now?

User currently offlineJunction From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 778 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 2450 times:

Quoting ScottB (Reply 15):
Having to shuttle between terminals isn't exactly passenger-friendly, either.



Quoting ScottB (Reply 15):
WTH is up with a billion-dollar train that none of the airlines at PHX need?!

This is the reason for trains at most airports. It allows a carrier to be located in more then just one terminal without passenger inconvenience. PHX is way overdo for something other then busses to connect all the terminals. If there were sterile terminal connections (such as a train) set up at PHX, US or WN could have gates at terminal 4 and at the new terminal 2. It would be no different then the AA set up at DFW, and the CO set up at IAH.


User currently offlineGift4tbone From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 613 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 2430 times:

Quoting Junction (Reply 16):
Is AA still the only carrier using the south concourse of terminal 3? When HP moved to terminal 4, AA was left using only 3 of 10 gates in that location, which would be plenty of room for all the carriers currently in terminal 2. Has the terminal 3 south concourse underutilization situation changed now?

I believe TZ was their for awhile, until the codeshare with WN matured. Also, I believe Sun Country operates out of the South concourse. AA is currently using 4 gates if I recall correctly, which would leave 5 open gates. Would be enough room for UA and AC maybe. But poor CO and AS would get left out in the cold. Besides, the city of phoenix, is all about expanding, growing. So they need room to do so.

-Tony@PVD



Top 3 airports: PVD 26.0%(115 flights), PHL 15.6%(69 flights), PHX 12.0%(53 flights)
User currently offlineAirCop From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 2409 times:

Quoting Junction (Reply 16):
Is AA still the only carrier using the south concourse of terminal 3?

No, Hawaiian, JetBlue, Midwest. (perhaps AirTran?) uses the South Terminal. I support the concept of tearing down T2 and starting over, but its the "people mover"is what I think is a waste of money. Once again its shows how arrogant an airport department can be to suggest something like that, and then have the City Council approve it, since it will be funded by users fees.


User currently offlineScottB From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 6826 posts, RR: 32
Reply 20, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 2396 times:

Quoting Junction (Reply 17):
It allows a carrier to be located in more then just one terminal without passenger inconvenience.

But... if WN is the primary tenant of T2, there's no need to shuttle passengers between terminals, given that there would be ample room for US and its partners in T4 at that point. And it seems likely that the tram won't be on the sterile side at all.

Quoting Junction (Reply 17):
It would be no different then the AA set up at DFW, and the CO set up at IAH.

Actually, the AA setup at DFW led to a dramatic escalation in costs at the airport, making AA less competitive. And CO built the first phase of the TerminaLink train at IAH itself. The big difference here: neither of PHX's primary tenants wants this boondoggle of a train system.


User currently offlineDesertJets From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 7811 posts, RR: 16
Reply 21, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 2375 times:

Quoting ScottB (Reply 20):
The big difference here: neither of PHX's primary tenants wants this boondoggle of a train system.

To some degree the ATS makes sense. Largely from what has been proposed it isn't really for inter-terminal connections. Though it can be used that way. It will start on the west end at the car rental facility, hit all three terminals, the east economy lot, and then connect w/ the 44th St. light rail station. The argument for it is that it will reduce vehicle congestion (by eliminating the buses and by making it easy to use light rail to get to the airport) and reduce vehicle emissions along Sky Harbor Blvd. I buy the argument to some degree. To make it worthwhile I think they'd need to develop more remote parking lots that are reasonably priced, adjacent to the ATS, to reduce the O&D traffic coming into the central terminal area to park in the individual terminal garages.

That said the first stage of the project was approved earlier (the T3 to 44th St portion). The stage that just got approved was the T3 to car rental facility segment. So I am not clear if the $1.1bn pricetag is for the entire thing or just half of it.

The problem I see is that an ATS is now one of those things that all world-class airports should have. Therefore Sky Harbor needs one in order to be seen as a world-class airport. However, the need for one in the future is there. Its a question of do we build it now for 1.1 billion and have it underutilized, or do we wait 10-15 years and build it then at a higher cost. Or do we do something in between and do the prep work for the project and leave it in wait until there is a real need.



Stop drop and roll will not save you in hell. --- seen on a church marque in rural Virginia
User currently offlineTransWorldSTL From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 568 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 2360 times:

Quoting JonnyWishbone (Reply 11):
How traumatic is this and by the sounds of it, do I need my tetanus and hepatitis injections for this run down third world shack???!!!!

OR will I be pleasantly surprised?

You'll be in T4... Newer terminal, but it's basically just four walls, seats, and windows. Nothing special about it.

Quoting Junction (Reply 17):
If there were sterile terminal connections (such as a train) set up at PHX, US or WN could have gates at terminal 4 and at the new terminal 2. It would be no different then the AA set up at DFW, and the CO set up at IAH.

The tram won't provide a sterile terminal connection.

Quoting DesertJets (Reply 21):
Therefore Sky Harbor needs one in order to be seen as a world-class airport.

If PHX wants to be a "world class airport", then maybe the airport authority should focus on maybe providing something pleasing to the eye when they build new terminals/concourses/etc. PHX airport is way too bland to be considered 'world class'. T4 is just a bunch of rectangles.. The whole airport is just boring. But it serves it's purpose.


User currently offlineHPRamper From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4151 posts, RR: 8
Reply 23, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 2328 times:

Quoting HZ747300 (Reply 14):
If WN & US aren't happy maybe they can move their operations to Tucson or Safford as a protest.

Heh, and watch PHX instantly become a ghost town.


User currently offlineCactus742 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 240 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 2238 times:

Quoting Junction (Reply 16):
Is AA still the only carrier using the south concourse of terminal 3? When HP moved to terminal 4, AA was left using only 3 of 10 gates in that location, which would be plenty of room for all the carriers currently in terminal 2. Has the terminal 3 south concourse underutilization situation changed now?



Quoting AirCop (Reply 19):
No, Hawaiian, JetBlue, Midwest. (perhaps AirTran?) uses the South Terminal.

Hawaiian, jetBlue and Midwest all share gate 5 on the south concourse of T3. AA still has three gates. Those are the only gates used on that concourse.

AirTran uses gate 19 on the north concourse.



Do not take life too seriously. You will never get out of it alive.
25 Post contains links MMEPHX : To provide an alternate access to the airport from the Light Rail (better question: WTH doesn't Light Rail go direct to the airport?) Car parks are o
26 ScottB : Well, I guess the real problem is that just the debt service on the bonds issued to build a billion-plus-dollar train system would be higher than the
27 TSS : If you're in any concourse except D, you'll be in a completely generic low-ceilinged airport building that will (thankfully) be forgotten as soon as
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