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Indian Aviation Thread: Part 45  
User currently offlineLAXDESI From United States of America, joined May 2005, 5086 posts, RR: 48
Posted (7 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 7211 times:

Paramount to add 15 new aircraft by 2009.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/P...w_aircraft/articleshow/1653975.cms

Quotes:
Paramount Airways, the country's only all business class airline, has chalked up plans to have a national footprint by end 2009, which will be done by acquiring 15 new aircraft in three years.

Speaking to TOI here, Paramount MD M Thiagarajan said the airline, which started operations a year ago, connects eight destinations through 50 flights daily. "We are now a South Indian airline with a dominant market share. Our share (in the sectors that we operate) is 24% as against Jet with 21%, Indian 20% and Air Deccan 18%. Our plan is to saturate the southern market by this year and then replicate the model in the West, North and East, in that order."

Paramount is the lone carrier in the HVC (high value carrier) segment, while most airlines follow a LCC (low cost carrier) or full service carrier (FSC) model. "We believe in pampering our passengers. This year we will connect Trichy, Mangalore and Calicut after which we will interconnect all the sectors that we currently operate in,"Thiagarajan said. On Wednesday, the airline announced one more flight between Madurai and Chennai, taking the total number of daily flights between the two destinations to four.

105 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineLAXDESI From United States of America, joined May 2005, 5086 posts, RR: 48
Reply 1, posted (7 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 7210 times:

Maharaja may continue as mascot for the post merger AI/IC combine.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/N..._as_mascot/articleshow/1653976.cms

Quotes:
While the new brand name after the merger of Indian and Air Indiais yet to be finalised, civil aviation minister Praful Patel said, the Maharaja could remain the mascot for the merged airline. The airline's full-cost domestic and international flights would get a similar look in the coming years.

Armed with the EGoM's approval for the merger, that is expected to cost around Rs 200 crore, civil aviation minister Praful Patel intends to approach the cabinet for the final go ahead by the end of next month. "The merger is not going to happen overnight but in a phased manner. There will be a one to two year transition period during which many issues will be sorted out,"Patel said. He also promised that there will be no layoffs and the 33,000 employees will remain on the rolls of the new entity.


User currently offlineLAXDESI From United States of America, joined May 2005, 5086 posts, RR: 48
Reply 2, posted (7 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 7167 times:

IA takes on low-cost carriers in fare war for flights out of Kolkata.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/C...n_fare_war/articleshow/1651124.cms

Quotes:
Indian Airlines is revving up for a dogfight in the skies. With all-time low fares in its arsenal, the national carrier is ready to fire salvos at not just legacy carriers, like Jet Airways and Air Sahara, but low-cost airlines like Air Deccan and SpiceJet as well. "We have slashed fares on several routes out of Kolkata. The new fares, applicable till September-end, are aimed at winning back passengers lost to competition," IA chief manager (marketing & sales) Nirbhik Rai Narang said.

The airline's new basic fares range from Rs 175 to Rs 625 on all flights to the north-east, except Dibrugarh. The number of discounted fare seats may range from 15 to 50, depending on the flight's load factor. The full fare on these sectors range from Rs 4,330 to Rs 7,540.

Fares have also been slashed on metro sectors. The lowest fare (tax & surcharge included) to Delhi is Rs 2,990. It will cost a passenger Rs 3,990 to travel to Mumbai, Rs 3,330 to Chennai and Rs 4,000 to Bangalore.

The new fares are part of the airline's dynamic pricing mechanism aimed at optimising passenger load. With a major capacity augmentation lined up (43-50 new aircraft are to be inducted in the fleet over the next three years), the Indian Airlines top brass have adopted a two-pronged strategy to fill up the seats --- expand services in domestic and international sectors and take on competition aggressively to grab market share in existing sectors.

"The move is aimed at increasing load factor from 70% to 90%," Narang said. That will automatically lead to a market share hike. At present, IA's market share in the east is 24% --- next only to Jet Airways at 27%. It offers nearly 1,900 seats out of Kolkata every week.

The basic return fare to Bangkok too, has been slashed. The lowest return fare ranges between Rs 4,500 to Rs 6,000. The tax and fuel surcharge applicable on this sector is Rs 4,000.


User currently offlineNimish From India, joined Feb 2005, 3171 posts, RR: 9
Reply 3, posted (7 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 7123 times:

Quoting LAXDESI (Thread starter):
Paramount Airways, the country's only all business class airline, has chalked up plans to have a national footprint by end 2009, which will be done by acquiring 15 new aircraft in three years.

Anecdotally speaking, Paramount seems to be doing quite well for themselves (based on talking to folks who've recently flown with them). Most folks I've spoken to are happy to fly Paramount, love the service and the lack of a middle seat, love the fact that it's a Jet aircraft (rather than the turbo props), though the lack of frequencies on key routes (and the lack of a loyalty program) are areas they need to improve upon to get more of the business traveler.



Latest Trip Report - GoAir BLR-BOM-BLR
User currently offlineAKLDELNonstop From New Zealand, joined Apr 2006, 305 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (7 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 7114 times:

Quoting Nimish (Reply 3):
Anecdotally speaking, Paramount seems to be doing quite well for themselves (based on talking to folks who've recently flown with them). Most folks I've spoken to are happy to fly Paramount, love the service and the lack of a middle seat, love the fact that it's a Jet aircraft (rather than the turbo props), though the lack of frequencies on key routes (and the lack of a loyalty program) are areas they need to improve upon to get more of the business traveler.

Given the profile that Paramount has created for itself, that of a business airline? Does it not see any potential in connecting the business sectors of the country, rather than focussing on South Indian routes. IMO they should try out BOM-DEL and DEL/BOM-BLR. Just because their DEL-MAA-CJB didn't work doesn't mean the above wont work either.


User currently offlineThreekay76 From India, joined Jun 2005, 16 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (7 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 7079 times:

Tata - Changi to modernize MAA,CCU
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/...a_airports/articleshow/1650521.cms

The Tata Group and Singapore's Changi Airports International have agreed to jointly bid for the modernisation works of airports at Chennai and Kolkata as also vie for similar projects in non-metro airports.
"We are partnering with the Tatas to get the contracts for modernisation work in Kolkata and Chennai airports", Changi's vice president (India) Ng Tim Peng told PTI in Delhi.
While the Tatas hold a controlling 51 per cent stake in the joint venture company, Changi would own the rest, he said, adding that "we are open to other partners with the right skills and expertise joining us in this venture".
No final decision has yet been taken by the Centre on the course of modernising these two metro airports, though the West Bengal government has said that Kolkata airport should be developed by the Airports Authority of India, while Tamil Nadu government favours the public-private partnership route.
This is the second time the Tatas are entering the aviation sector in the recent past. Earlier, the Indian conglomerate had tied up with the Singapore Airline to bid for flag carrier Air-India when it was proposed to be privatised, but the process failed to take off.
Incidentally, it was the Tatas who had floated the airline in 1932. Then known as Tata Airlines, it was nationalised by the government subsequently.
"At present, we are concentrating on Kolkata and Chennai (airports modernisation)", Peng said in reply to questions, but added that the JV firm planned to bid for city-side development of 35 non-metro airports as well.


User currently offlineNimish From India, joined Feb 2005, 3171 posts, RR: 9
Reply 6, posted (7 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 7065 times:

Quoting AKLDELNonstop (Reply 4):
Does it not see any potential in connecting the business sectors of the country, rather than focussing on South Indian routes. IMO they should try out BOM-DEL and DEL/BOM-BLR. Just because their DEL-MAA-CJB didn't work doesn't mean the above wont work either.

There was an article on today's papers, that they plan to buy another 15 a/c and continue to expand on regional routes. Their plan was to first complete the southern sectors (supposedly close to that goal), then do the same thing in the West, then target the north and the east.

They don't seem too focussed on "thicker" routes (aka longhaul - inter-metros), which are probably better handled by the 320/737 family. They're focussed on the best route for their E-Jets, which are more suited for the thin routes.



Latest Trip Report - GoAir BLR-BOM-BLR
User currently offlineSunnyb From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 247 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (7 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 6990 times:

Check out this thread:

Air India-Indian Merger Approved! (by Sunnyb Feb 21 2007 in Civil Aviation)


User currently offlineAarbee From India, joined Aug 2005, 259 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (7 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 6898 times:

Continuing from previous thread -

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 97):
Well, I doubt if US carriers look at routes based on prestige anymore. It's all about revenue and market share. Many routes that were perceived as being "prestigious" 10 years ago have been canned by many carriers (JFK-NRT comes to mind). That having been said, JFK-BOM is a lucrative route for those carriers that ply it, whether non-stop, direct or via transit hubs. The fact that US carriers have only recently begun non-stop flights to India is a function of aircraft type availability and the market warranting non-stop flights. Only recent 777 and A340 variants can fly the route non-stop and profitably

Indian carriers, of course, do look at the ability to fly to JFK and LHR as matters of prestige. Its always been Air India's crown jewel.

The issue was about prestigious route. I agree "US carriers look at routes based on prestige anymore". Lucrative YES, prestigious - I doubt it.

Agreed it is only recently that this US-IND route can be flown non-stop profitably only recently, but if you see the first 2 routes went to Delhi and not to BOM. DL went N/S to BOM almost a year after the AA/CO to Delhi.

Indian carriers prestigious routes is ONLY because of the traffic, not for prestige.

Quoting Gr8Circle (Reply 102):

While you are both technically correct on this, bear in mind that Indian stocks are denominated in the Indian Rupee (which is inherently weak vis-a-vis the US$ or Euro) and when converted to US$ for comparison with other exchanges in the world, will always look very small in comparison...

I fully understand that. Never disputed that.

Quoting Gr8Circle (Reply 102):

what is important is that the BSE is the primary stock exchange in India, one of the hottest economies in the world today, and does indeed play an important role in the Indian economy....the reason for this, as Jaysit pointed out, is that Mumbai is the financial center of India and thus a lot of important commercial activity is centered around the city....most of the top industrialists, industries, companies, banks, multinationals, etc. are all based in Mumbai....

I think it is fully understood by most of the people that Mumbai was, is and will be financial capital of India. The point here was BOM-JFK is not a prestigious route because of the presence of the stock exchanges.

Quoting Gr8Circle (Reply 102):

It is no coincidence that officials from the NYSE, LSE, NASDAQ and several other important financial institutions from the West have been actively pursuing BSE officials and trying to forge links in different ways of late.....

The key here is off-late. Last 3-4 years.

Quoting Gr8Circle (Reply 103):

Firstly, do you have any figures on the composition of stocks traded within a day on the BSE vis-a-vis other exchanges in the world?

No. Does that mean what I claimed is inappropriate?

Quoting Gr8Circle (Reply 103):

Secondly, are you implying that on other stock exchanges elsewhere in the world, all transactions taking place within a trading day are unique and do not involve multiple sale of a single stock within a day? That just happens to be the way exchanges work everywhere in the world......

I did not say that nor I implied it. I'm sorry if you misunderstood it.

Quoting Gr8Circle (Reply 103):

As for market cap, as I said above, you are technically right....but that does not provide the true picture of the emerging importance of the BSE on the world financial stage....

Nor does the number of transactions. BSE (along with NSE - In general the Indian economy) is emerging not dominating. There is a lot of growth potential, but even in next few years it will not be top 5 in market cap.

Quoting Karan69 (Reply 104):

I never once said that the route is prestigious because of the presence of stock exchanges---i said it is a prestigious route and gave the stock exchanges as being an example.---

Well I beg to differ. Your statement in reply 76 did indicate that. Sorry mate.  Smile

My only point is that at this point of time, you are overestimating the importance of Indian economy (stock market) in the world playing ground to warrant a NYC-BOM link being prestigious.

Cheers,



Love the AIXes
User currently offlineJaysit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (7 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 6889 times:

Quoting Aarbee (Reply 8):
Agreed it is only recently that this US-IND route can be flown non-stop profitably only recently, but if you see the first 2 routes went to Delhi and not to BOM. DL went N/S to BOM almost a year after the AA/CO to Delhi.

True.

And I think that eventually Delhi will outpace Mumbai in terms of traffic. However, I think that both CO and AA went for Delhi because a year ago Delhi's direct connectivity to the US was relatively poor. Air India flew 5 weekly services to JFK, twice weekly to Chicago and 3 weekly flights to LA. In contrast, Mumbai had 14 weekly flights to the NYC area, a daily to Chicago and a 4x weekly to LA, on AI alone. Plus, in terms of operational range, DEL was a safer bet than BOM. BOM at about 750 miles from DEL, really tests the operational range of the 777ERs.


User currently offlineKaran69 From India, joined Oct 2004, 2868 posts, RR: 18
Reply 10, posted (7 years 1 month 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 6839 times:

Quoting Aarbee (Reply 8):
Agreed it is only recently that this US-IND route can be flown non-stop profitably only recently, but if you see the first 2 routes went to Delhi and not to BOM. DL went N/S to BOM almost a year after the AA/CO to Delhi.
Indian carriers prestigious routes is ONLY because of the traffic, not for prestige.

As Jay said DEL had far less connectvity in direct terms than BOM, also the range limitations of the 772ER causes it to be severely restricted, Almost every DL flight is delayed and at times they even make a technical stop at MAN.

Quoting Aarbee (Reply 8):
Well I beg to differ. Your statement in reply 76 did indicate that. Sorry mate. Smile

Differ all you want mate, i know what i meat and i clarified it in one of the following replies.

Quoting Aarbee (Reply 8):
My only point is that at this point of time, you are overestimating the importance of Indian economy (stock market) in the world playing ground to warrant a NYC-BOM link being prestigious.

Again you are making the assumption, [especially after the clarification i made] that i am basing my analysis from a BOM-NYC flight purely on stock markets, you tell me mate which has more business traffic and can fill a plane upfront year round BOM-NYC or BLR-SFO [it may be sufficient for profit but not as much as a BOM-NYC]

Also as far as the prestiege issue you keep picking on, i used a word to define a route--so big deed, but the route is prestigious.

BOM, NYC are the biggest financial markets of their repective countries.
Numerous biz companies have their centers in both cities.
BOM-NYC was the first route for AI, and have operated it since father time passed away...
NYC the name itself carries much more market value---i.e. it is self advertisement, and is a city even the security gaurds of a building will know, try asking SFO to the majority of the Indian people, ill be surprised if even 60% of the population of India knows it.
NYC is a safe market [tried and proven] and also they have their operational base set up there, rather than venture into SFO first [SFO will come later, and it will be India-SFO, who even knows if they do BLR-SFO--it is AI afterall]

Karan


User currently offlinePNQIAD From India, joined May 2006, 585 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (7 years 1 month 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 6799 times:

Pvt airlines may get to fly to Gulf

Excerpt: "The merger of Air India and Indian may have been cleared for take-off, but whether the combined entity would continue to enjoy monopoly over the lucrative Middle-East sector has become a matter of scrutiny by the country's competition commission.

The commission, which is at present playing more of an advisory role pending passage of an amendment bill granting it more powers, could force open this market for private players, sources said on Thursday. ".....

Interesting to see this coming from the Competition Commision (frankly hadn't heard about any of its active roles till date...). They say it is as of yet only advisory - so it will be worth watching whether it has any real teeth....


User currently offlineMk777 From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 1193 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (7 years 1 month 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 6787 times:

Quoting Karan69 (Reply 10):
NYC is a safe market [tried and proven] and also they have their operational base set up there, rather than venture into SFO first [SFO will come later, and it will be India-SFO, who even knows if they do BLR-SFO--it is AI afterall]

I agree that the BOM-NYC is an important route for AI. I am sure with the induction of their new fleet they might start a service to SFO, however I am also sure IT or 9W will tap this route, IT might start a non-stop BLR-SFO with the A345 and later with the A380 but 9W has already stated that it will fly BOM-PVG-SFO (don't know when??), so AI venturing into something new like SFO as of now will seem not so smart, but just like Karan said, with AI, you never know what to expect.

However I feel AI should announce a non-stop from DEL/BOM to IAD (washington Dulles) as this route might prove profitable to them since there is no such route available to the tons of Indians living in the DC metro area and it might fill up the front part of the plane if politicians and other business people travel with this option rather than the one-stop european routes that are the only option available so far from IAD to India, which to me personally does not appeal.

Lets see how QR does IAD-DOH commencing in June. AI should seriously look into this.



come fly with me
User currently offlineAmmunition From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2002, 1064 posts, RR: 4
Reply 13, posted (7 years 1 month 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 6786 times:

Looks like AI are going to have amenity kits in economy soon, judging from their tenders section.

http://mmd.airindia.co.in/aimmd/tender/RFQ_15241531.html



Saint Augustine- 'The world is a book and those who do not travel, read only 1 page'
User currently offlineLAXDESI From United States of America, joined May 2005, 5086 posts, RR: 48
Reply 14, posted (7 years 1 month 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 6787 times:

Jet Airways to start flights to NYC via Brussels in August, and start YYZ via Brussels by year end.
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/..._in_August/articleshow/1654293.cms

Quotes:
India's largest private airline company Jet Airways will make a stopover in Brussels for its flights between Mumbai and New York in the US, according to local media reports. The service that is due to start this August will provide the first direct air link between Belgium and India, says INEP.

Next to the link Mumbai-Brussels-New York, Jet Airways also intends to start a connection between New Delhi and Toronto before 2007-end. This connection will also have a stop over in Brussels, "Flandernews.com" reported.

However, in the Jet Airways office in Brussels there was nobody to confirm the report as the management was in a meeting. The tourism minister from the Flanders region of Belgium, Geert Bourgeois, currently visiting India, met Indian tourism minister Ambika Soni and the management of Jet Airways in Mumbai.


User currently offlineKmsyd777 From Australia, joined Jul 2006, 51 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (7 years 1 month 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 6744 times:

Oh please bring at least one of the indian carriers down under - now with AI IC merging I don't know whether IC's plans to launch MEL services will still go ahead! I'd love to see one of AI's or 9W's new birds here...

User currently offlineKaran69 From India, joined Oct 2004, 2868 posts, RR: 18
Reply 16, posted (7 years 1 month 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 6729 times:

Quoting Mk777 (Reply 12):
However I feel AI should announce a non-stop from DEL/BOM to IAD (washington Dulles) as this route might prove profitable to them since there is no such route available to the tons of Indians living in the DC metro area and it might fill up the front part of the plane if politicians and other business people travel with this option rather than the one-stop european routes that are the only option available so far from IAD to India, which to me personally does not appeal.



Quoting Mk777 (Reply 12):
Lets see how QR does IAD-DOH commencing in June. AI should seriously look into this.

Agree IAD should be looked at seriously, but i am not sure if it should be a non-stop, maybe launch it via FRA or LHR first to see how it performs.
i agree about the huge desi population in the metro area. but they are the kind of people that fly once a year and not on a regular bases. so would not make sense for a non-stop service, however if QR does well on IAD-DOH especially with Indian Originating pax AI should launch a non-stop DEL-IAD service.

Also i beleive, that if ORD gets a DEL non-stop [which seems highly likely to be the second non-stop to US with NYC-BOM getting the first one] the current flight via LHR/FRA will cease to exist and they could use those slots to offer IAD with the 337ERs

Karan


User currently offlineJaysit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (7 years 1 month 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 6721 times:

The DC-Baltimore area is home to about 175,000 persons of Indian origin. Plus, we have a huge computer and IT industry in Virginia, Govt agencies, the World Bank, IMF, every NGO under the sun, the NIH, growing biotech, etc. Does this warrant non-stops from IAD to India? I don't know. Remember that Star Alliance is big in the DC area with United hubbing at IAD and USAirways at DCA. This means that many of us have United and USAirways FF miles. A lot of people I know who fly to India will stick with Star Alliance, flying United or Lufthansa to Frankfurt and connect to Lufthansa from there. Is it optimal? No. But its a good 20,000+ miles added to your account, and that's in Y. Fly J, and you get 30,000, F and you get 40,000. Numbers like that will keep people glued to UA/LH.

For those who don't care about FF miles, we have many of the European majors with multiple daily flights - LH, AF and BA, that provide great connections to India. Delta has good connectivity to its Mumbai nonstop, as do CO and AA. OS and KL/NW also carry a fair amount of traffic to India. I usually take BA when I fly to India (ranges between twice annually to 5 times a year). BA's FF program stinks, but when you have enough miles, it gets better.


User currently offlineManny From United States of America, joined Sep 2006, 467 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (7 years 1 month 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 6707 times:

Continued from the previous thread.

Quoting Karan69 (Reply 76):

JFK it is afterall one of the most prestigious route---from BSE to NYSE



Quoting Karan69 (Reply 104):

I never once said that the route is prestigious because of the presence of stock exchanges---i said it is a prestigious route and gave the stock exchanges as being an example.---

What should come first prestige or profitability. Prestige should not be the basis of business decisions. Sorry. It should be about where are they going to get more revenue & profits.
The stock exchange example, that was bad. I mean at best it might be a far fetched reason. But not the reason to start a nonstop flight.

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 97):

Consequently, this city pair also accounts for the most premium traffic between India and the US. CO/AA's absence from this market is probably because this market is adequately served at present by Air India, Delta, Northwest/KLM, the major European carriers (BA, LH, AF, LX, AZ, OS, VS) and Emirates.

And one of the other reasons why starting a nonstop service between JFK-BOM makes no sense. This market has too just many options for a traveler.

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 97):

Well, I doubt if US carriers look at routes based on prestige anymore. It's all about revenue and market share.

Thats right. They are doing the right thing. That should be basis of business decision making revenue, marketshare & profits. A route should not be flown b/c its prestigious.

Quoting Karan69 (Reply 104):

First of all DL hub at JFK is not as big as the one at ATL, but i get your point, but one can also make that claim for AI.....



Quoting Karan69 (Reply 104):

It may be a joke to you or anyone mate, but what is a hub then for AI, BOM may not be the most convienient which is what i clearly mentioned above, but it is a hub, and it is much closer than you think, land in from JFK at DLs flight to BOM and trying making a connection , you will see there is no difference.---and i never debated whether or not JFK is better than BOM as a hub

But DL is so far better positioned to get feeder traffic from its origin compared to AI. That's what matters. For AI this is going to be for the most part a point to point service. Inspite of the recently annouced merger.

Quoting Karan69 (Reply 82):

the profile of pax travelling between India and US have a far greater majority of India Originating passengers.



Quoting Karan69 (Reply 104):

Its a known fact mate, also see some of the posts in AC stopping DEL services thread

Dude, you made the claim so prove it. If you have any hard data/links let us know.  Smile
But if you are basing it on some post on the thread for AC withdrawal, thats a whole different story b/c the India-Canada market is whole lot different from India-US market.
If i am missing something from that thread let me know.

Quoting Karan69 (Reply 104):

To give you an idea, as you clearly dont seem to understand the point i am trying to make very clearly about the risks involved in entering a new market, i am quoting someone who has far better experience and knowledge in airline market dynamics than the two of us.

Quoting InitRef (Reply 85):
or business travellers the AI nonstop should command a premium or at least be the obvious choice if the fare is the same as one-stoppers on other carriers. However, the Citi/Goldman/JPMChase/GE people will be getting tremendous discounts from their preferred carriers (e/g LH gives GE corp travel J class seats for the price of a $2k Y fare). You can bet that the AI flights won't even appear on the corp booking sites for most Fortune 500 in the US.

If i remember right that post refers to the inaptness of AI sales staff in accumulating corporate sales. And the example given is the New York market. And guess where AI is flying nonstop to ?  Big grin
This is a BIG reason why AI should have flown nonstop SFO-BLR before JFK-BOM. I am repeating this again, they would have had a UNIQUE product. Its easier to sell a unique product than a product where there are comptetitiors. The SFO-BLR flight would have sold inspite of AI's inaptness.

Quoting Karan69 (Reply 104):

I am sure the AI mgmt has all their statistics in place, and since they have been deploying a 744 for the past 16 years on that route via LHR, they are well aware of how many pax travel from BOM all the way to JFK, and hence have decided to give a non-stop a go as compared to a new untried market of SFO.

Untried or ripe of the picking ?. They have not flown this route to SFO b/c there was no demand but b/c they did not have A/C to do the nonstop flight from BLR. And not they do!!!
I mean this a really really wimpy decision and only a government official could make this decision.


User currently offlineJaysit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (7 years 1 month 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 6698 times:

Quoting Manny (Reply 18):
This is a BIG reason why AI should have flown nonstop SFO-BLR before JFK-BOM.

Perhaps they will in due course.

Remember its not just about a unique product. The 777LR is a new type in AI's fleet, AI's engineering base is in BOM, its senior pilots and crew are all Mumbai or Delhi based with experience in plying the India-New York routes, it has seasoned staff in Mumbai and New York who know the workings of the airline. However, an ultra long range nonstop is a new concept for AI and with it come new logistical issues. Establishing a new base for 777LRs in BLR, plus staffing a new office in SFO, and dealing with the vagaries of a new aircraft type and a new ultra long range route would be pushing any organizations resources. Plus, when airlines introduce a new aircraft type, its usually put on a known route first. I suspect that the 777LRs will probably do the India-LHR-JFK routes at first to allow pilots to familiarize with the aircraft, then do the India-NYC nonstops, before embarking on a BLR-SFO nonstop.

Plus, AI may just shift the daily JFK 744 flights via London to Delhi, and replace this flight from BOM with the daily nonstop. There are lots of variables here. There is a reason why AI's JFK flights go via DEL - Queens which is close to JFK is home to lots of North Indians and AI 101 usually leaves Mumbai about a third full, filling up in DEL. Flying a smaller aircraft type nonstop to JFK, and focusing on prremium traffic on this route may allow the airline to more adeptly serve the BOM-JFK market while increasing its presence in DEL.


User currently offlineManny From United States of America, joined Sep 2006, 467 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (7 years 1 month 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 6698 times:

Quoting Karan69 (Reply 10):
BOM-NYC was the first route for AI, and have operated it since father time passed away...

UA operated LHR-JFK too. Multiple flights. Now they are out.

Quoting Karan69 (Reply 10):
NYC the name itself carries much more market value---i.e. it is self advertisement, and is a city even the security gaurds of a building will know

But security guards of a building will not fly nonstop to NYC for business or pleasure.

Quoting Karan69 (Reply 10):
try asking SFO to the majority of the Indian people, ill be surprised if even 60% of the population of India knows it.

Even if that's true,it does not matter.
What matters is how many people who actually are going to utilize the service to SFO know about it. I am sure the number there is 100%.  Wink

Quoting Karan69 (Reply 10):
NYC is a safe market [tried and proven] and also they have their operational base set up there, rather than venture into SFO first

Someday they have to venture out. Leave the warm cozy nest of safety. Why now now ? Its not a big deal setting up a new destination with brand new A/C. A ton of airlines do it.
I mean how is 9W starting a service via BRU-EWR(places where they do not have an operational base) with brand new A/C they know nothing about.


User currently offlineManny From United States of America, joined Sep 2006, 467 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (7 years 1 month 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 6689 times:

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 19):
Remember its not just about a unique product.

In a market ripe for picking, its is a very huge factor. I never said its the only factor.

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 19):
The 777LR is a new type in AI's fleet, AI's engineering base is in BOM, its senior pilots and crew are all Mumbai or Delhi based with experience in plying the India-New York routes, it has seasoned staff in Mumbai and New York who know the workings of the airline. However, an ultra long range nonstop is a new concept for AI and with it come new logistical issues. Establishing a new base for 777LRs in BLR, plus staffing a new office in SFO, and dealing with the vagaries of a new aircraft type and a new ultra long range route would be pushing any organizations resources.

All this says is they have not done their homework. This is total lack of planning. These 772LR's did not crop up from thin air. It was known when they were coming. Setting up a base is work, and they have to do all of this work at at some point of time. Why not in time for the first 772LRs ?

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 19):
Plus, when airlines introduce a new aircraft type, its usually put on a known route first. I suspect that the 777LRs will probably do the India-LHR-JFK routes at first to allow pilots to familiarize with the aircraft, then do the India-NYC nonstops, before embarking on a BLR-SFO nonstop.

I have agreed with that. In the previous thread i agreed with someone's observation( I think it was Karan) that the 772LR could replace the 767 flown on the LHR route for sometime. But once we are ready to start a ULH it should have been on the SFO-BLR route.

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 19):
There is a reason why AI's JFK flights go via DEL - Queens which is close to JFK is home to lots of North Indians

Having lived in NYC i am aware of that.

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 19):
AI 101 usually leaves Mumbai about a third full, filling up in DEL. Flying a smaller aircraft type nonstop to JFK, and focusing on prremium traffic on this route may allow the airline to more adeptly serve the BOM-JFK market while increasing its presence in DEL.

But atleast AI serves the market with its own metal. They do not serve the BLR and SFO market at all.
This flight leaves Mumbai a third full only. Thats alarming. I do not know the exact configurations but generally a third full 747 could hardly fill up a 767 flight. With a stop at LHR means there is some traffic for LHR as well. And they are starting a nonstop service with a 772LR. Thats too many people too attract in a market where there are alternative choices.


User currently offlineJaysit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (7 years 1 month 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 6686 times:

Quoting Manny (Reply 20):
Its not a big deal setting up a new destination with brand new A/C. A ton of airlines do it.
I mean how is 9W starting a service via BRU-EWR(places where they do not have an operational base) with brand new A/C they know nothing about.

BLR-SFO would create logistical issues that would have to be worked out after AI acquires the LR, given that the route is a transpolar one and one that AI has no experience with, and one that the 777LR has never done as yet in commercial service. You can't compare BRU-EWR with BLR-SFO. BRU is merely a transit stop whereas AI would have to establish maintenance and staffing at BLR for the 2-3 777LRs needed for a daily nonstop. A ton of airlines do not acquire a new aircraft type and fly it nonstop for 18 hours to brand new destinations. The only airline I can think of that did that is TG with its JFK A345 nonstop service. But againTG were operating this flight out of its base.

Yes, there is a certain symbolism in being the first to fly BLR-SFO (all that silicon valley of India to Silicon Valley stuff), but there's more to operations than just rolling the plane to the gate, filling it up and saying "go."

Btw, does anyone know how long a BLR-SFO flight would be in either direction?


User currently offlineCricket From India, joined Aug 2005, 2964 posts, RR: 7
Reply 23, posted (7 years 1 month 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 6641 times:

I just have my two cents to add in on the Bombay - New York sector. I may be a Delhi-ite (though I have lived in Bombay) and I can understand what people might think about other cities in the US getting service, but Mumbai, no matter how ramshackle the infrastructure is still India's financial hub and will remain India's financial hub. It is the city where India's central bank is located as well as the country's two largest indices and the NSE is definately in the world's top 20 exchanges in terms of daily volume. Mumbai is also the home to most of India's largest corporations and banks with Public and Private. I don't need to explain anything about New York.
The case for a NYC-Mumbai direct flight is so bleeping obvious!
The second service for the Long Range planes is likely to be a West Coast direct service from DEL (or it still could be BOM), most likely SFO.



A300B2/B4/6R, A313, A319/320/321, A333, A343, A388, 737-2/3/4/7/8/9, 747-3/4, 772/2E/2L/3, E170/190, F70, CR2/7, 146-3,
User currently offlineNimish From India, joined Feb 2005, 3171 posts, RR: 9
Reply 24, posted (7 years 1 month 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 6632 times:

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 22):
Btw, does anyone know how long a BLR-SFO flight would be in either direction?

BLR-SFO - 8718 miles
BKK-LAX - 8270 miles (about 450 miles off)

Scheduled time for BKK-LAX on the 345 is 17:10 flying west, and 14:30 flying east. I would assume the timing would be very similar for BLR-SFO as well, since the 450 miles might be offset by the 772LRs slightly higher speed.



Latest Trip Report - GoAir BLR-BOM-BLR
25 Post contains images Nimish : I for one would hate it if AI started this as their first route, imagine having to deal with AI and their ground staff on this tiring route.. Much pr
26 Uzzzer : Hello, everyone! Just checking: Ukrainian authorities are saying that Air India / India are seriously looking at Antonov-148 regional jet and Antonov-
27 Mk777 : Wasn't AI planning to join *A??? If they do then IAD would be a good choice for them. And I am sure if AI or any other Indian carrier starts the rout
28 Post contains images Gr8Circle : We ARE all living in the year 2007, right?....so key or no key, the current situation is what any one would be talking about....don't get your point
29 Post contains links Nimish : Not heard that discussed at all - you can also post on http://www.airliners-india.net for a wider audience. Kind of OT - but trying to learn more abo
30 Cricket : Maybe to replace some of the Coast Guard Do-228 and sub out some of the An-32's? Just conjecturing.
31 Uzzzer : Thanks! I'll look through! 1. Cheaper to buy, same money to maintain 2. May be used at airports with poor infrastructure, even ground rwys 3. Airfram
32 Jaysit : Yes, IAD would be an excellent destination for AI if it teamed up with *A. Otherwise they'll have to rely on the desi bucket shops and advertisements
33 Post contains links LAXDESI : Kingfisher to fly new routes, add more flights. http://samachar.com/showurl.php?rurl...7+14%3A19%3A03+GMT&keyword=ww_home Quotes: Mumbai: Vijay Mallya
34 Abrelosojos : Does anyone know when ITs COK-AGX will commence? Thanks, A.
35 Post contains images Aarbee : Sorry dude, I did not for once see between reply 76 and 104 that it is not a prestigious. I'm not picking on it, that was my only point when I first
36 Post contains images Aarbee : That is one of the main reasons why AMD/HYD/BLR have European/American flights with BOM in equation. I won't be surprised if the AMD-BOM-CDG-EWR flig
37 Gr8Circle : You're the one stuck onto the 'prestige' word...I have not used it anywhere.... I never said that the BSE is "one of the most important exchanges of
38 Manny : You kidding me! SFO-BLR would be much more profitable. I have stated the reasons already so i am not going to repeat them again. Thats true for JFK a
39 Post contains images Aarbee : My whole point was about it and you were arguing against it. I'm not putting words in other's mouth. You've been touting BSE as important/significant
40 Jaysit : Well, nothing is significant in comparison to China! And the term "significant" is open to a million interpretations. It isn't. Delta currently fly t
41 Post contains images Gr8Circle : How does that amount to "putting words in others mouths"? The AC thing is for real, not my imagination....AA was mentioned in a news article which ha
42 Joelatbsl : AC879 Delhi - Zurich was heavily delayed twice in a row now, the second time being the flight of 24th Feb. Does anyone know why that ocurred? Fog in D
43 Gr8Circle : It's Feb end now....does the fog problem in Delhi persist so long....I thought it was restricted to Dec-Jan...maybe I'm wrong....
44 Karan69 : The points been clarified time and time again not only by me but also other members in the forum, so either you too arrogant or lazy to read it or yo
45 Aarbee : Actually, I was not quite comparing to China. Chinese market being controlled by the govt. would not have drastic fluctuations and affect others. I w
46 Post contains images Aarbee : Did I refer to AC thing to boost my argument? NO. Did I refer to AA's mention in a news article to support my argument? NO. So why drag it out here a
47 Jaysit : Once again, I guess it all depends on what one deems "significant," isn't it? If you want to view all of Eastern Europe as an entity or Latin America
48 Karan69 : VJM, should look at filling his current 7 and 5 flights before adding others, back in Jan when my father flew them on 3 flights all on BOM-DEL round
49 Rocketman742 : Air India s1st 777 delivery is further delayed to middle of the year.
50 HAWK21M : Now What....I Thought May was Late Enough.Any Reason. regds MEL
51 AI : could it be that they have now realised that the livery & the name of the airline has to be changed due to the merger with IC ? & hence lets repaint
52 Aviator27 : Back in the old days of fare regulation and monopolies, first class used to pay for the flight and coach would be all profit. At around 50,000 Rupees
53 Karan69 : Round trip fare in KF biz class are around 35K, but i get the point that you are making. Karan
54 Stealthpilot : Bangalore-Lakshwadeep? I did a quick google search and from what I gather only Indian flies there (to Agatti) from Kochi. An Airbus seems a bit much
55 COEWR787 : Since when? Usually the northernmost point on the JFK - BOM flight is slightly North of the Arctic Circle, and nowhere near the pole.
56 Post contains images Gr8Circle : Notice my comment above and your reply below that....I think you're the one who referred to the AC and AA thing while responding to my comment about
57 Cricket : I flew IT 122/123 return DEL-BOM in KF First and the return fare was 21K, bought almost last minute.
58 Post contains images BigTom : You're right, but if they truly run to form they would think about the new livery only after getting most of the new deliveries in the cuirrent one.
59 Post contains images Cricket : There is a fairly interesting theory on the redesign and why it got done and where money was paid off. If PP has been talking of a merger ever since h
60 Karan69 : But i dont get one thing barring a little bit of route and structural network improvements, what is this merger gonna achieve. There can marginalize
61 BlrBird : BLR-AGX is not nonstop flight it is an extension of current BLR-COK to AGX and it is 3x weekly on ATR. MAA ramp up are new 2 daily to CBJ, 1 daily to
62 Jaysit : Maybe "Indian" liveried aircraft will run the domestic operations of the merged carrier, with "Air India" doing all the international routes. But ins
63 Post contains images BigTom :
64 Post contains links Manny : This is bleeping ridculous. The list of arguments presented is so dense it can make light bend. Juvenile, uncorroborated statements which are suppose
65 Manny : The volume does not matter. The market cap does. Suddenly there's a hole in the bleeping obvious argument. Mumbai is a financial center of India. And
66 Manny : What makes you say that ? From from screen name i think b/c CO flies that routing. But CO flies it with a 772ER not a 772LR.
67 Post contains images Nimish : The BIAL (new BLR) airport is due to open for commercial ops in April 2008, just about a year away now. Besides, IMO the current BLR airport is far p
68 Nimish : Was it a same-day return? IT discounts same-day return flights by 50%!! I just checked BLR-DEL return on IT first, and it was 20K for the same day re
69 Jaysit : Good Lord, you don't get it. AI combines flight 101 with DEL and BOM. The emphasis is on catering to the Delhi market to London and New York which AI
70 HAWK21M : Both Mgmts & GOI seem out of coordination. regds MEL
71 Post contains links LAXDESI : Mangalore: Passenger traffic up at Bajpe airport. It handled 4,39,743 passengers in 2006. http://www.bellevision.com/newshead.asp?nhid=3944 Quotes: Th
72 BlrBird : I dont know whether AI will start BLR-SFO route or not but AI is(was) planning to set up southern operations hub at BLR and in this regard I believe
73 Karan69 : Hey congrats Manny, it took you 2-3 whole days for you to come up with a constructive answer, OH WAIT--it is the same repeated shit you keep coming up
74 Post contains links Karan69 : Air India has finalised wet lease of 3 767-300ER and one 757-200ER, according to their tender inviting bids for wet leasing aircraft. [includes the cu
75 Sshank : Thats quite amusing that they attribute the air traffic increase to bad roads. I guess it makes sense - the Shiradi Ghat section (Sakleshpur - Mangalo
76 COEWR787 : Yes, it is a fact that normally neither DL nor CO flies anywhere near the pole on their BOM/DEL NYC flights, nor does AA fly anywhere near the pole o
77 Post contains links LAXDESI : AI, IA eye opportunities in SE Asia, Far East. http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/N...a_Far_East/articleshow/1680296.cms Quotes: Even as the grand all
78 Nimish : But it's probably quite true. Since the rail link between Mangalore-Bangalore is still not operational, all the passenger traffic has to rely on eith
79 Aarbee : It seems that Jet Airways is planning to announce Ahmedabad (AMD) - London by the 1st week of March. The flight will begun on 4th April or so. Timings
80 Karan69 : Yeah, this was announced at their shareholders conference and was discussed in Indian Aviation Thread 43, [i think] . It seems to be great route with
81 Gr8Circle : Just a question about slots....is a 'slot' restricted to certain aircraft types? I mean, you are saying that 9W may acquire slots from AF, who would
82 Post contains images Aarbee : Yes. Concerde001 did provide this news in Thread 41. But nothing was concrete. My understanding is that they are going to formalize it and announce t
83 Aarbee : Did I bring up AC and AA to boost my argument? NO. Was I the one to bring up AC and AA in this discussion? NO Who brought AC and AA in this discussio
84 Post contains images Gr8Circle : Uhhh....you're back are you....no point in taking this further if you don't see the point of it....try reading your own posts and the replies that I
85 Post contains links Nimish : Air Sahara (S2) announces services on the DEL-KUL-SIN-DEL sector starting March 19th. From: http://www.indiaprwire.com/businessnews/20070228/19118.htm
86 Cricket : Does anybody is S2 has gotten any new metal lately? In the all the rush with the new airlines, Air Sahara seems to have dropped off the radar.
87 Post contains links Nimish : There was an interview with the current chappie running the airline - where he's quoted saying they're looking to lease many more a/c. From: http://w
88 Aarbee : Oh! So did find any proof, eh! Maybe you should start reading your own posts to realize what you are saying and what kind accusations you are making
89 Aarbee : Somebody pointed that the Jet airways (PDF) schedule on it's site is updated with this. Ahmedabad - London 9W126 1410 1905 23 03-Apr-2007 25-Apr-2007
90 Post contains links Blrsea : Airlines' efforts to check online frauds
91 Aviator27 : Am I the only person who is concerned that these stolen international credit card details are coming from the BPO's in India? There is a lot of credi
92 Schipholjfk : JFK is IN Queens. Not close to Queens.
93 Gr8Circle : Maybe some, but I don't think you can ascribe ALL such cases to leaks from Indian BPO's....the problem is much wider....
94 Post contains links LAXDESI : Air India, Indian merger gets cabinet stamp. Hopefully they will start consulting each other and reschedule flights to provide better connections, and
95 Post contains links Concorde001 : Jet Airways mulls cooperation with Lufthansa FRANKFURT (AFX) - Indian airline Jet Airways Inc is mulling a cooperation with Lufthansa AG as it plans t
96 PNQIAD : Isn't there a talk about AI being invited to *A? If it happens, wonder how well this co-operation will go down with the new AI?
97 Post contains images PNQIAD : All we can do is hope
98 Post contains links Concorde001 : As far as I'm aware, Air India is set to join Star Alliance as a full member in the near future. According to the article below, all of Star's member
99 Mk777 : Since IAD is a UA *A hub, can we predict a DEL/BOM-IAD flight from AI anytime soon??
100 SLCNate : Since SFO is also an UA hub, you should be seeing BLR-SFO N/S from AI in the near future prior to DEL/BOM-USA. That will keep our A.netters happy. Ju
101 PNQIAD : I too had read the article before - but a search on *A site returns nothing on AI - even under press releases section. So it's anyone's guess as to w
102 Post contains images Mk777 : Well I am sure it will keep you happy, but i think IT will start this route once they get their A345's, AI, most likely would concentrate from DEL an
103 SLCNate : I understand your point of view and I also agree it will make better sense for AI to operate from BOM or DEL.
104 Aviator27 : There is a huge discussion about New York and Bombay being financial centers of their respective countries. Curiosity got the better of me and I wante
105 Post contains links LAXDESI : THIS THREAD IS CLOSED. PLEASE GO TO PART 46. Indian Aviation Thread: Part 46 (by LAXDESI Mar 3 2007 in Civil Aviation)
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