Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
On The Horizon Of Aviation 'On-Duty' Time Limit?  
User currently offlineCha747 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 785 posts, RR: 6
Posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 4636 times:

The following thread got me to thinking:

http://www.airliners.net/discussions...general_aviation/read.main/3272695

The last few replies (thusfar) are just shocking that it is acceptable for flight crews (not to mention mechanics, ATC, and other people who are in direct connection with the operation of an airplane) to work on such less sleep. Could aviation learn something from medicine?

The year is 1984. An 18 year old college student named Libby Zion is admitted to Cornell's New York Hospital for a high fever. Dr. Gregg Stone, a junior medical resident who had been on duty for 18-19 hours, gives Ms. Zion a drug called Demerol (meperidine) for "shaking" episodes, overlooking the fact that there is a fatal interaction with a medication that Ms. Zion is already on. Eight hours later Ms. Zion is dead, purportedly because of a simple medication interaction. At the trial, blame is placed on Dr. Stone but what comes to light is the fact that Dr. Stone, like all other resident doctors, was overworked, sleep deprived, and virtually impaired. A commission was set-up and in 2003 the sweeping 80-hour work-week for resident physicians was implemented nationwide (USA). [Note - this is a grossly abbreviated version of the case, Libby Zion may have, by some accounts, died of cocaine overdose, but it has become widely accepted that it was likely a simple drug interaction that killed her.]

The basic premise of how it works is simple. 12 hours on, 12 hours off, with (on average) one 24-hour period "off" within a 7 day period. While many people would find this to be a gruelling schedule (72 hours a week), it is actually much more human than a typical "old-school" call schedule of 12 on, 12 off, 36 on, 12 off, 12 on, 12 off, 36 on, etc. When I started residency before the 80-hour thing was started, we were pulling 100-120 hours "on-duty" in a week. Making potentially life-saving decisions at 3am on 2 hours of sleep was, well, scary. Simply put, do I want a pilot risking both my life and his flying on little or no rest?

There are laws about truck drivers and bus drivers and how long they can work for. There are laws for doctors. There are even laws in some states that ban drowsy-driving; in New Jersey if you (everyday Joe) are involved in a crash that lead to anybody's death and you were found to not have had adequate sleep before you got behind the wheel (you worked a "double shift" at the Duncan Donuts that day), you can be charged with vehicular homicide, get prison time, and even be charged with a $100k fine. Even if laws (or rules/regs) exist for the airline industry, are they adequate enough to ensure the public's safety?

So should pilots, FA's, mechanics, rampers, ATC, and any other personnel who have anything to do related to the safety of the plane and its passengers be more limited as far as work hours?


You land a million planes safely, then you have one little mid-air and you never hear the end of it - Pushing Tin
3 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineAirportSeven From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 327 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 4577 times:

FAR Part 121 lists all of the duty time limitations for pilots and mechanics in the United States.

The problem is that the FAA can mandate a required rest period for flight crews, but they can't force flight crews to actually sleep during the mandated rest period. It's the same with controllers. It's up to the individual to get enough rest to be mentally focused enough to execute their duties.


User currently offlineFlyf15 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 4564 times:

Quoting AirportSeven (Reply 1):
FAR Part 121 lists all of the duty time limitations for pilots and mechanics in the United States.

The problem is that the FAA can mandate a required rest period for flight crews, but they can't force flight crews to actually sleep during the mandated rest period. It's the same with controllers. It's up to the individual to get enough rest to be mentally focused enough to execute their duties.

The problem with these rest requirements is that they are totally inadequate for how airlines operate now versus when they were first written. I am legally allowed to get as little as 8 hours "rest" between duty periods. But, due to how the rules are written, my rest starts 15 minutes after the door opens (usually I'm still on the airplane by this point) and starts 30 minutes before the door closes in the morning (am already onboard getting it ready by then).

So thats 8 hours from leaving the airplane to being back on the airplane. In that 8 hours I have to get transported to and from the airport (up to 30 minutes each way), I have to go through security, if its a Canada layover (which we do many of) I have to go through customs, I have to eat dinner in the evening and breakfast in the morning, I have to shower, get dressed, unpack and pack my things, and so on and so on. Then I have to fall asleep in an unfamiliar hotel room / unfamiliar bed. As you can see, those 8 hours of "rest" get eaten away by a lot of things that have nothing to do with sleeping very quickly. I usually subtract 4 hours from how much rest I'm allotted to how much sleep I can expect... so, for that 8 hour rest period, I'm expecting about 4 hours of sleep.

Additionally, there is nothing that says when this 8 hour rest period has to occur. There have been times where one day my rest period has been normal at night and the following day, my rest period has been from 10am to 8pm and then expected to be on duty 8pm to 9am the following morning. That is a complete night and day shift in when I am supposed to "rest" in the course of one day. So even if you did have an adequate rest period scheduled, say.. 12 hours, there is no guarentee that it matches up with your internal clock and you're going to be able to get any worthwhile sleep.

I just checked my next trip, during the whole trip, my shortest duty day is 12h43m and my longest rest period during the whole trip is 10h17m. So, the absolute shortest day I will work will be a nearly 13 hour day (163% longer than a normal 8 hour work day) with 5 legs and it will be preceeded by 4 hours of sleep and followed by my "long" overnight where I will expect about 6 hours. I'm scheduled to fly 27.8 hours and 18 legs in a 3.5 day period.

If you had any idea of the number of mistakes make in cockpits across the country every day due to sleep deprivation, you and the rest of the general public would be horrified. They happen many times on every single flight, every single day. Luckily our system is built with a very large amount of checks and balances... we have lots of people and lots of systems all watching over the flight making sure things are going properly, and 99.9% of the time, something catches the error and it is corrected, but it is very unnerving that the errors occur in the first place.

Sadly, in the airline industry, time is money, and crews "resting" takes a lot of time and costs a lot of money. The airlines are able to lobby the FAA to keep things the way they are... fatigue usually gets swept under the carpet in crash investigations....a great deal of crashes, I believe, would've been prevented if the crews were not fatigued but were caused by something else.... ie: the crew probably could've reacted to the emergency better if they were rested and handled it better or not let things get out of hand.

I am a big proponent of getting more rest. It is not out of personal desire, but pure necessity for safety and my own body's sake (this has got to be one of the reason airline pilots have a short life expectancy). The FAA isn't going to do anything about it, so I'm actively trying to get better than FAA required minimums written into our contract with our airline, but it is an uphill battle and probably will not be successful.

So, next time you get on an airplane, ask the crew how much sleep they got the night before and how long they've been on duty... Sorry for the long post, this is a big issue for me and, obviously, I have a lot to say about it.  Smile

[Edited 2007-02-23 18:05:36]

User currently offlineHaggis79 From Germany, joined Jun 2006, 1096 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 4528 times:

quite interesting to me that no one on this board seems to want to discuss about this..... it's certainly a more serious topic than the 1001st AvB war....


300 310 319/20/21 332/3 343 AT4/7 143 B19 732/3/4/5/G/8/9 742/4 752/3 763/4 77E/W CR2/7/9 D95 E45/70 F50 F70 100 M11 M90
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
The Father Of Aviation As We Know It? posted Sat Nov 12 2005 02:23:56 by Darrenthe747
Windows To The World Of Aviation posted Wed Dec 8 2004 08:30:41 by Zippyjet
USA & The Future Of Aviation? posted Wed Jun 16 2004 16:00:48 by SolarWind
What do you think the future of aviation will be? (trijet?) posted Tue Feb 3 2004 02:53:37 by AApilot2b
World Oil Peak And The Decline Of Aviation posted Sat Dec 13 2003 03:39:14 by A330Jamaica
The Future Of Aviation In Iraq posted Sat Dec 6 2003 05:25:33 by Flyinguy1
The Future Of Aviation! Is This! posted Sat Jan 19 2002 21:17:53 by Schreiner
A Question For The Forum: The Future Of Aviation posted Fri Sep 14 2001 23:10:52 by Aloha 737-200
Legend Airlines/Jetblue The Future Of Aviation posted Sun May 21 2000 16:41:33 by AirOne
BA Flight 252 On The 5th Of Jan posted Sat Jan 6 2007 15:42:17 by Albird87