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KLM City Hopper - Great Staff - Poor Aircraft!  
User currently offlineAntdenatale From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2006, 178 posts, RR: 0
Posted (7 years 7 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 4073 times:
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Not really a trip report, so appologies if it is the wrong section.

Four flights this weekend on Fokker 70/100's with KLM City Hopper between CWL-AMS-TLS. Three sectors on Fokker 100's delayed due to technical problems, Is this just my bad luck or is the fleet falling apart at the seams?

On the plus point, the staff were outstanding during the delays, If the Captain on KL1311 on 23/2/07 reads this forum, I would like to say you are a credit to the airline. It is the first time I have ever been delayed where the Captain actually came to the cabin to tell the customers personally about the technical issues. You put us all at ease and kept us informed everystep of the way  Smile  Smile

25 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineTreg From Estonia, joined Oct 2001, 537 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (7 years 7 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 4050 times:

Just yesterday here at TLL one of the CityHopper F100s had gear deployment problem and the return leg (TLL-AMS) was cancelled. The media reported that on a first attemt the gear did not come down and they had to go around. On as second attempt it worked but the return leg was cancelled anyway. Unfortunately, I do not have any further information about this particular aircraft.

User currently onlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7652 posts, RR: 27
Reply 2, posted (7 years 7 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 3854 times:

I've always had great experiences on my City Hopper flights, the KLM crews do a great job.

Fortunetely never had any delays on my flights, but I had many issues with AA's F100's when they operated them. They always had maintenance issues, and they were very much prone to landing gear deployment & locking issues.


User currently offlinePlymSpotter From Spain, joined Jun 2004, 11668 posts, RR: 60
Reply 3, posted (7 years 7 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 3809 times:

Nope, you're not the only one who has issues with KLM's F100's going tech, I've encountered them many times going tech and flights cancelled, oh and they blamed it on the weather each time and therefore refused to pay any form of compensation, which is no really on. However, still can't knock the customer service, it really is great when anything goes wrong.

Dan Smile



...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
User currently offlineSK601 From Belgium, joined Jun 2005, 976 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (7 years 7 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 3677 times:

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 3):
tech and flights cancelled, oh and they blamed it on the weather each time and therefore refused to pay any form of compensation,

According to the EU-rules, airlines don't need to pay compensation in case an aircraft is cancelled for technical reasons. The airline must rebook the passenger, give hotel accommodation if an overnight stay is required, provide a meal(-voucher) and give the passenger the opportunity to contact family/friends etc (phone card). If the passenger does not accept the new flight and does not want to use the ticket anymore, the airline MUST refund the unused portions of the ticket REGARDLESS of fare paid/ticket restrictions. So basically, there is not much difference in compensation for weather related or technical cancellations (from EU-regulations point of view).

I flew with KLM Cityhopper a few weeks ago. Aircraft F100. From the outside it was nice and shiny, it looked brand new! From the inside it was a piece of garbage! Old seats, 2 overhead luggage bins out-of-service, it didn't look very nice. The return a/c (also F100) looked a bit better. The FA's were nice, the service was ok. Good information from the flight deck.

HB-IWC often mentions the bad dispatch reliability of KLMs MD11, but the Fokker fleet is even worse. I think there is not one single day that KLc will NOT cancel flights because of technical problems. However, I know that there are more "issues" that cause those (daily) problems, unfortunately I'm not able to mention that in a public forum.


User currently offlineBA787 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2006, 2596 posts, RR: 7
Reply 5, posted (7 years 7 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 3580 times:

I hear that a lot of people have really good experiences with KL city, especially compared to KLs actual service. Ive got friends who have travelled on KL MD11s and prefer that MD11

User currently offlineHT From Germany, joined May 2005, 6525 posts, RR: 23
Reply 6, posted (7 years 7 months 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 3462 times:

We had some burst pipe in one engine of a F.70 in summer 2006.
As we had been told later, there was more than normal smoke upon startup in AMS, but we started to taxi anyhow into direction Polderbaan. After 10 minutes we turned left instead of right and I knew something was wrong: We returned to the apron (another 15 minute taxi); mx-crew dismantled the engine cover and declared the a/c as AOG.

Fortunately this was not the last flight to HAJ that day plus KL was able to get us a replacement-a/c which took off with about 75-90 minutes delay.

Last week the late evening flight AMS-HAJ and the subsequent early morning return flights were cancelled on two seperate days. While these flights usually are operated by F.50 those cancellation really should hurt KL and make customers unhappy. My employer is using these very flights almost as a corporate shuttle: I've been on flights with 15+ fullfare (minus 10% discount) paying collegues, but
a) that unreliability of the "Reliable airline" as KL promotes itself plus
b) the too early departure and too late arrival (from/at HAJ) is driving pax away.
As there is no other airline flying from HAJ to AMS, I meanwhile prefer to drive 350km by car and spend a night in a hotel rather than having to fly at 0600h (for which I have to get up at 0400h) and return home by 2200h+ (comment valid for business trips which should generate high yield income for the airline).

When flying for pleasure (limited occasions with KL nowadays), I now refrain from booking the early morning and late evening KL-flights ...



Carpe diem ! Life is too short to waste your time ! Keep in mind, that today is the first day of the rest of your life !
User currently offlineAviopic From Netherlands, joined Mar 2004, 2681 posts, RR: 42
Reply 7, posted (7 years 7 months 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 3442 times:

Quoting SK601 (Reply 4):
From the inside it was a piece of garbage! Old seats, 2 overhead luggage bins out-of-service, it didn't look very nice.

They are all in the process of being refurbished, just bad luck you got an old one.

Quoting SK601 (Reply 4):
HB-IWC often mentions the bad dispatch reliability of KLMs MD11, but the Fokker fleet is even worse.

The Fokker fleet is doing pretty good actually.
F100 flighthours:
2003 = 17.000 , 2004 = 25.500 , 2005 = 23.000 , 2006 = 30.750
F70 flighthours:
2003 = 41.000 , 2004 = 40.500 , 2005 = 43.500 , 2006 = 44.750

From these numbers we learn that the F70 is very stable as it always has been and that the F100 had a dip in 2005 due to maintenance issue's.
Since then KL changed the mx organisation and the F100 fleet was put in a "touch up" and commonality program which was completed somewhere halfway 2006 by Fokker Services.
Still you can get unlucky of course.

Quoting SK601 (Reply 4):
unfortunately I'm not able to mention that in a public forum.

Of course you are !........... To many F..... managers around.  banghead 



The truth lives in one’s mind, it doesn’t really exist
User currently offlineHT From Germany, joined May 2005, 6525 posts, RR: 23
Reply 8, posted (7 years 7 months 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 3422 times:

Quoting Aviopic (Reply 7):
F100 flighthours:

Are these yearly figures based on the same number of airframes each year ?
The flighthours per airframe would be more significant ...



Carpe diem ! Life is too short to waste your time ! Keep in mind, that today is the first day of the rest of your life !
User currently offlineAntdenatale From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2006, 178 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (7 years 7 months 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 3385 times:
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I think the most frightening thing was on Friday when we were moved off PH_KLE there was a huge spillage of fuel under the left hand engine. All airlines have planes that go tech, but to experience 3 in one weekend must be a record. The funniest thing was that when the last flight went tech on Sunday it was re-placed with.......You guessed it PH-KLE all repaired!!!

I will mirror the comments from the other posters, I found all the members of staff on all 4 flights very customer focused and friendly. They really are a credit to the airline.  Big grin


User currently offlineHT From Germany, joined May 2005, 6525 posts, RR: 23
Reply 10, posted (7 years 7 months 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 3338 times:

Quoting Antdenatale (Reply 9):
I will mirror the comments from the other posters, I found all the members of staff on all 4 flights very customer focused and friendly. They really are a credit to the airline.  

But they are called Flight Attendents - however with the a/c going tech (= not leaving ground) what does this make them ? [irony off] Big grin



Carpe diem ! Life is too short to waste your time ! Keep in mind, that today is the first day of the rest of your life !
User currently offlineAntdenatale From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2006, 178 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (7 years 7 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 3219 times:
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Quoting HT (Reply 10):
But they are called Flight Attendents - however with the a/c going tech (= not leaving ground) what does this make them ? [irony off] Big grin

LOL - That made me laugh!!! Prehaps they could be called Ground Attendants


User currently offlineBuckieboy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (7 years 7 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 3206 times:

Quoting SK601 (Reply 4):
However, I know that there are more "issues" that cause those (daily) problems, unfortunately I'm not able to mention that in a public forum.

I flew on KL1537 on 10/02/07 on a F50 which was a replacement for the usual F70. Quite a rowdy crowd who were unhappy with a longer flight and a noisier journey, however the FAs handled the situation magnificently.  praise 

Interestingly, the Captain spoke personally to the plane before we took off and mentioned that first thing on Saturday morning, no fewer than 20 aircraft were grounded due to technical issues. Looking at the in-flight magazine, where KL quotes 184 machines, that's over 10% of the whole fleet!

I'm sure the Captain thought he was doing the correct thing in stating what he did; and I hope he doesn't get into trouble for his words. As an engineer, it left me thinking; "Why fly with this lot (KL) if over 10% of their fleet is grounded, especially when weather at AMS is not abnormal?"

My colleague was due to fly the same flight the previous day. Both KL1537 and KL1539 were cancelled and he was not allowed to fly to NCL, because his baggage was booked through to MME. (A rather dubious security regulation here; we are allowed to fly without our luggage when an airline or airport loses our bags.....) Anyway, he left PEK 24 hours before me and arrived home 6 hours earlier.  Angry

Agree entirely with the thread starter, even if my recent experience is with the F70.

Cheers

BB


User currently offlineLarSPL From Netherlands, joined Apr 2002, 473 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (7 years 7 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 3018 times:

Quoting Buckieboy (Reply 12):
nterestingly, the Captain spoke personally to the plane before we took off and mentioned that first thing on Saturday morning, no fewer than 20 aircraft were grounded due to technical issues. Looking at the in-flight magazine, where KL quotes 184 machines, that's over 10% of the whole fleet!

best way to communicate is to be honest!



facebook.com/ddaclassicairlines
User currently offlinePHKLM From Northern Mariana Islands, joined Dec 2005, 1198 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (7 years 7 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 2985 times:

Quoting Buckieboy (Reply 12):

Agree entirely with the thread starter, even if my recent experience is with the F70.

I flew AMS-HAM on KL1783 and KL1784 last week; both flights should have been operated by F100 (as per online check-in 24 hours prior to the flight) but outbound was operated by 734 and return by F50.
First I thought it had to do with load factors but I now seriously doubt this  Smile

Two pax got really upset (read: aggressive) when boarding the F50, as they where allowed to bring carry-on luggage on the flight at check-in but the F/A's told then that it had to be put in the hold as the F50 is so crammed there isn't any space for carry-on items left.
I found the F/A's on the return leg (operated by KLC) very modest, they served drinks to then sit down in seat 1A and B to read the newspaper, gossip and eat instant-soup not offered to the pax. Quite disrespectful and certainly not what I would expect.

The flight landed in AMS 15 minutes late due to the extra flying time and then made a 15 minutes taxi from the Polderbaan to the terminal; the cabin crew was fed up with this as well as they both kept making gestures of annoyance and at each other while looking at their watches.

I have no objection whatsoever to crew disappearing but sitting down in row 1 with pax all around them made them look very unprofessional. Their behaviour after landing didn't help their image either.


User currently offlineMauriceB From Netherlands, joined Aug 2004, 2490 posts, RR: 25
Reply 15, posted (7 years 7 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 2971 times:

Is it KLM whining week at A.net or what? :S everybody complains about KLM... first we had the 767 name issue, then the MD-11's, and now this...


Anyway, the Fokkers are reliable, but they definitly had theire longest time, being replaced by Q400's/72-500's or new Fokkers. (which seems to live-up again this week)


User currently offlineAntdenatale From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2006, 178 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (7 years 7 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 2959 times:
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You should try being stuck on the plane for 2 hours with 100% passenger load with screaming children and aggrivated French businessmen and you will know why I am having a little whinge  Yeah sure

User currently offlineMauriceB From Netherlands, joined Aug 2004, 2490 posts, RR: 25
Reply 17, posted (7 years 7 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 2939 times:

Quoting Antdenatale (Reply 16):
You should try being stuck on the plane for 2 hours with 100% passenger load with screaming children and aggrivated French businessmen and you will know why I am having a little whinge

You probably don't fly often, otherwhise you would have known that this happens to all airlines... including KLM yes..


User currently offlineAntdenatale From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2006, 178 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (7 years 7 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 2921 times:
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Quoting MauriceB (Reply 17):

Hmmm maybe you are right, I mean over 30 flights in 6 months is not that much flying to form an opinion on a reliable airline or of what my expectations are from an Airline Company whether that be KLM / BA or any other Airline  Confused


User currently offlineMauriceB From Netherlands, joined Aug 2004, 2490 posts, RR: 25
Reply 19, posted (7 years 7 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 2919 times:

Quoting Antdenatale (Reply 18):
Hmmm maybe you are right, I mean over 30 flights in 6 months is not that much flying to form an opinion on a reliable airline or of what my expectations are from an Airline Company whether that be KLM / BA or any other Airline

Oke even if you fly often, then youre probably a lucky bastard you never had the same situation before, because once again, it happens more than on the occasion


User currently offlineHB-IWC From Indonesia, joined Sep 2000, 4507 posts, RR: 72
Reply 20, posted (7 years 7 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 2812 times:

Quoting SK601 (Reply 4):
HB-IWC often mentions the bad dispatch reliability of KLMs MD11, but the Fokker fleet is even worse. I think there is not one single day that KLc will NOT cancel flights because of technical problems. However, I know that there are more "issues" that cause those (daily) problems, unfortunately I'm not able to mention that in a public forum.

You are of course right. However, the overall effects on the network of the miserable MD11 dispatch reliability are definitely larger than those of the Fokker fleet. Additionally, the Fokker fleet is not as stretched to the limit as the MD11 fleet in terms of utilization while there are more alternatives available for Fokker passengers in case of irregularities than for those booked on an MD11 at Lima or Kilimanjaro.

That said, the dispatch reliability of the Fokker fleet is indeed low, and not a day goes by without multiple cancellations because of purported weather or maintenance issues. Quite obviously, there are cancellations that are called technical for the records but which are not technical at all. I have trouble accepting the 'technical issues' explanation mentioned over and over again for the spate of recent AMS LCY cancellations, and I strongly suspect that low bookings because of competition on the route may have something to do with the almost daily 'technical issues' on this premium route.

On the positive side, the Fokker fleets are all getting new interiors, so at least they should offer a more pleasant flying experience for their passengers. I doubt whether the cabin retrofit will have any beneficial effects on the fleet's dispatch reliability though.


User currently offlineKaitak744 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 2392 posts, RR: 3
Reply 21, posted (7 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 2783 times:

Quoting Antdenatale (Thread starter):
It is the first time I have ever been delayed where the Captain actually came to the cabin to tell the customers personally about the technical issues.

I was on a BA 777 from LHR-CCU. The flight was delayed by over an hour due to a burnt-out light bulb on the left wing. The Captain came into each cabin, (not over the PA) and announced him self what was going on.


User currently offlinePHKLM From Northern Mariana Islands, joined Dec 2005, 1198 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 2720 times:

Quoting MauriceB (Reply 15):
Is it KLM whining week at A.net or what? :S everybody complains about KLM... first we had the 767 name issue, then the MD-11's, and now this...

I haven't seen any bashing yet. All legitimate arguments, questions and opinions.
Every airline has its glitches and issues but one should never hide for criticism.
Objectivity forces me to see the sorry state of Alitalia, but they have a fleet of Airbus 320, 321 combined with Embraear. IFE on the 320-series, 2-2 seating in European Business Class, 32" pitch in Y on the long-haul fleet and yet a very negative image with the flying public.
KLM at the other hand by no means offers superior service, neither in WBC, nor Europe Select, nor Economy; it's short haul fleet consists of old Fokkers and Boeing 737-Classics; even the 737NG's lack IFE. Still, KLM has a far better image by the flying public, especially the Dutch.
KLM carries the flag of a country that is known for its arrogance and bluntness; you will definately recognize these principles within KLM.
Cancelling flight to LCY pretending there are MX issues is one example.

Yes, I do know AZ is on the verge of collapse and also has old 767's and MadDogs but I used the example to make clear that people tend to be rather biased when talking about their favorite carrier. For me TAM can't do any wrong but I do know they're messing things up big time as well every now and then.


User currently offlineOOer From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1482 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 2638 times:

Any chance of KLM replacing those fokkers with the CRJ or ERJ family? Tho F-50 can be replaced by the Q300/Q400 or even the CRJ200 or EMB-145. The F-70 can be replaced by the Q400 on some routes, and the rest by the CRJ700 or the EMB170-175, And the F-100 can be replaced by the CRJ900 or the EMB-190-195.

User currently offlineHT From Germany, joined May 2005, 6525 posts, RR: 23
Reply 24, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 2588 times:

Quoting OOer (Reply 23):
Any chance of KLM replacing those fokkers with the CRJ or ERJ family?

How independently will KL be able to act on their fleet policy, or will everything in terms of new a/c-types be harmonized with (or "dictated by") AF ?
Of yourse, from an mx- & operational point of view it would make sense to harmonize the (combined) regional fleet on (1) common type(s) ...



Carpe diem ! Life is too short to waste your time ! Keep in mind, that today is the first day of the rest of your life !
User currently offlineMorvious From Netherlands, joined Feb 2005, 707 posts, RR: 1
Reply 25, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 2566 times:

2 weeks ago one of the fokkers aborted the takeoff to at Schiphol and returned to the B apron. A bus was called to pick up the passengers. One hour later the aircraft was already gone for its flight so that must have been a small issue.

Quoting OOer (Reply 23):
Any chance of KLM replacing those fokkers with the CRJ or ERJ family?

Thats chance is small. KLM is replacing the F50's with more F70's and F100's. So now and then when a fokker becomes availible on the market, KLM will buy it.

And, don't forget the never ending talks with Rekkof.



have a good day, Stefan van Hierden
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