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Qantas Goes With GE On The 787  
User currently offlineN1786b From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 558 posts, RR: 17
Posted (7 years 1 month 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 10391 times:

SNIP

SYDNEY, Feb 27 (Reuters) - Australia's Qantas Airways Ltd. said on Tuesday it has selected General Electric's GEnx engine for its fleet of up to 115 Boeing (BA.N: Quote, Profile , Research) 787 aircraft.

Qantas said it had made an initial order for 45 aircraft ship sets, valued at A$2 billion ($1.6 billion) in capital and maintenance costs over the life of the engines.

http://yahoo.reuters.com/news/articl...17_SYU001819&type=comktNews&rpc=44


- N1786B

104 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 915 posts, RR: 51
Reply 1, posted (7 years 1 month 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 10375 times:

Well, someone has to say it: major win for GE and a significant market share boost

User currently offlineAlitalia744 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 4733 posts, RR: 45
Reply 2, posted (7 years 1 month 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 10368 times:

Congrats to GE on landing another great customer for their engines.


Some see lines, others see between the lines.
User currently offlineCartoonranger From United Arab Emirates, joined Aug 2005, 89 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (7 years 1 month 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 10268 times:

HUGE blow to RR  Sad Well done GE. Can't help but think that RR need a big order from someone like BA and their long haul replacement to soften this one.

User currently onlinePEET7G From Hungary, joined Jan 2007, 695 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (7 years 1 month 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 10222 times:

Wow... I never taught GE will land this order! Of course I always hoped for them, but never really believed they had big chances! I know QF was always a dual engine carrier with RR and GE, but somehow always taught RR was a bigger runner up in this contest!

Congrats GE on a grand race well fought, and to Qantas to their new engines  bigthumbsup 



Peet7G
User currently offlinePilotdude09 From Australia, joined May 2005, 1777 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (7 years 1 month 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 10208 times:

Good news, i personally saw this coming.

Good news for GE and Qantas. Something positive for once!



Qantas, Still calling Australia Home.........
User currently offlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 60
Reply 6, posted (7 years 1 month 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 10173 times:

Congratulations to GE...I was a bit surprised at this win also....


....I'm sure PM won't be happy about this.....



"Up the Irons!"
User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 7, posted (7 years 1 month 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 10173 times:

I wonder if somewhere in all this guff about performance and environmental impact if GE finance might have a paw in the takeover bid.

User currently offlineLTU932 From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 13864 posts, RR: 50
Reply 8, posted (7 years 1 month 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 10174 times:

Indeed a major win for GE. Congrats to them and to QF, I really didn't expect RR to lose this one.

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 6):
....I'm sure PM won't be happy about this.....

On the bright side, if QF thinks they're not satisfied, they can still re-engine them with Rollers, thanks to the common pylon the 787 is due to use (along with the software mods that might have to be performed).


User currently offlineSixtySeven From Canada, joined Nov 2006, 319 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (7 years 1 month 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 10174 times:

GE stands for "good everytime"........

I remember doing a course at Long Beach on the DC-10 when a GE guy came in to give us the course on the GE engine. He said the GE engine was good for every start no matter the situation and that you would get a stabilized start in 40 seconds........ If you didn't, get a new watch.

GE is and has been producing the best engines in the industry. They are leaving RR and PW in a cloud of dust.

The funny thing is, you won't find an argument either.



Stand-by for new ATIS message......
User currently offlineDomokun From United States of America, joined Sep 2006, 202 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (7 years 1 month 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 10174 times:

Quoting SixtySeven (Reply 9):
The funny thing is, you won't find an argument either.

... I just hope I am not near one if it decides to seperate into a smaller fragments (GE CF6-80A2)  Smile


User currently offlineZkpilot From New Zealand, joined Mar 2006, 4775 posts, RR: 9
Reply 11, posted (7 years 1 month 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 10180 times:

This was coming for some time!! RR has been trying to force QF to give up its RR business to RR itself rather than having QF do it. RR has been doing go-slows on parts orders for QF, sending the wrong parts etc etc in an effort to persuade QF to hand its RR maintenance over to RR. Then we have RR trying to win a big order for the 787!! - Good luck... you try to funny business with an airline and the end result is they overlook you when it comes to order time!


54 types. 38 countries. 24 airlines.
User currently onlinePEET7G From Hungary, joined Jan 2007, 695 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (7 years 1 month 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 10175 times:

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 11):
This was coming for some time!! RR has been trying to force QF to give up its RR business to RR itself rather than having QF do it. RR has been doing go-slows on parts orders for QF, sending the wrong parts etc etc in an effort to persuade QF to hand its RR maintenance over to RR. Then we have RR trying to win a big order for the 787!! - Good luck... you try to funny business with an airline and the end result is they overlook you when it comes to order time!

In that case... no surprise  Smile



Peet7G
User currently offlineNYC777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 5675 posts, RR: 48
Reply 13, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 10163 times:

Well since QF selected the GEnx for their 787 it's a foregone conclusion that Air Pacific will also select the same engines for their 5+3 787s.


That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
User currently offlineFriendlySkies From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 4094 posts, RR: 5
Reply 14, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 10053 times:

Huge win for GE! I thought for sure RR was going to win this, even though the GEnx is clearly the better engine (I should note I'm interning at GE right now :P).

Quoting SixtySeven (Reply 9):
GE is and has been producing the best engines in the industry. They are leaving RR and PW in a cloud of dust.

Damn straight.


User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 15, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 10032 times:

In terms of head-to-head competitions on wide body engine selections, there isn't much left is there? AFAIK, SQ's 789 order is the largest pending. Didn't GE win the UPS 767 deal?


"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offlineDAYflyer From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 3807 posts, RR: 3
Reply 16, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 10025 times:

Quoting SixtySeven (Reply 9):
GE is and has been producing the best engines in the industry

A larger feather in the cap of the people of Cincinnati, OH where GEAC is located.



One Nation Under God
User currently offlineRaggi From Norway, joined Oct 2000, 992 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 10020 times:

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 15):
In terms of head-to-head competitions on wide body engine selections, there isn't much left is there? AFAIK, SQ's 789 order is the largest pending. Didn't GE win the UPS 767 deal?

UPS did indeed get the UPS 767 order, but that was hardly a surprise.

QF was a major win for GE, for sure!

I bet SQ will select Trents for their 789s though.



raggi



Stick & Rudder
User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 18, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 9976 times:

Quoting Raggi (Reply 17):
I bet SQ will select Trents for their 789s though

I agree with you, Trents for SQ's 789s. If SQ would select GE that would be a stunner. But then again, isn't QF's selection?



"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offlineFriendlySkies From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 4094 posts, RR: 5
Reply 19, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 9962 times:

Quoting Raggi (Reply 17):
UPS did indeed get the UPS 767 order, but that was hardly a surprise.

I certainly hope so, it'd be weird if UPS ordered 27 767s for FedEx.  Wink


User currently offlineLightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12444 posts, RR: 100
Reply 20, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 9963 times:
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Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 6):

....I'm sure PM won't be happy about this.....

 Sad No he won't be.

Quoting SixtySeven (Reply 9):
They are leaving RR and PW in a cloud of dust.

I'll admit they are leaving Pratt in the dust. RR has a well respected product and loyal customers.

Scuttlebutt in the industry has been that the GEnX has better economics on runs 5000nm+ than the Trent 1000. So it doesn't suprise me that QF went GE. Well ok, a little...

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 11):
RR has been trying to force QF to give up its RR business to RR itself rather than having QF do it. RR has been doing go-slows on parts orders for QF, sending the wrong parts etc etc in an effort to persuade QF to hand its RR maintenance over to RR. Then we have RR trying to win a big order for the 787!! - Good luck...

If true (sorry, I don't have anything to verify), than RR just pulled a Pratt and killed off one customers loyalty for a decade.

The only "issue" I see with the Trent 1000 is the decision to have so few turbine stages powering the compressors. Quite bluntly, the low OPR from that decision increases fuel burn. So RR would be at a disadvantage on long hauls. On shorter hauls, the Trent has great economics (better than the GE). I think this order was won on economics, pure economics. But if RR is playing tricks with QF (a la Pratt in their heyday)... Expect customers to revolt.

Lightsaber



I've posted how many times?!?
User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16345 posts, RR: 86
Reply 21, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 9938 times:

Quoting PEET7G (Reply 4):
I know QF was always a dual engine carrier with RR and GE, but somehow always taught RR was a bigger runner up in this contest!

Not always... its really been just recently that they've added some GEs.

Quoting SixtySeven (Reply 9):
The funny thing is, you won't find an argument either.

Yeah, you will. Lots of them in fact. RR has always been very successful and a lot of people have selected their engines. The Trent is the leading engine on the A330, and was the leader on the 777 for many many years.

NS


User currently offlineRaggi From Norway, joined Oct 2000, 992 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 9916 times:

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 18):
But then again, isn't QF's selection?

Well, it's not a total bombshell IMO. QF have GE on some 744s, their 744ERs, their 763s (excluding the leased BA birds), and their A330s, so they are very far from married to RR.

SQ, on the other hand will, when the 744 is retired, be all Rolls, except the 77W, with A333, 345, 388, 772/3 all with RR.


Still no comment from PM. Hope he didn't pass out when he read the news!


raggi



Stick & Rudder
User currently onlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 29700 posts, RR: 84
Reply 23, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 9868 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 20):
Scuttlebutt in the industry has been that the GEnX has better economics on runs 5000nm+ than the Trent 1000.



Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 20):
So RR would be at a disadvantage on long hauls.

That doesn't exactly bode well for RR powering an airliner optimized for 5000+nm missions, does it?

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 20):
On shorter hauls, the Trent has great economics (better than the GE).

RR might just become a big booster of the 787-3 for Chinese and Indian domestic use...  angel 


User currently offlineZKNZA From New Zealand, joined Feb 2007, 69 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 9785 times:

Quoting SixtySeven (Reply 9):
GE is and has been producing the best engines in the industry. They are leaving RR and PW in a cloud of dust.

They are all good engines,just different.GE & RR are leaving PW in a cloud of dust because PW seems to be intent on focusing on military contracts.
I think If GE didn't demand exclusivity on the 777LR/ER programme, RR and GE would be more evenly matched with aero engine orders.

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 14):
Huge win for GE! I thought for sure RR was going to win this, even though the GEnx is clearly the better engine (I should note I'm interning at GE right now :P).

How do you know that the Genx is clearly the better engine?Clearly you dont, because there are no aircraft flying with them commercially at present.
Until the 787 is in service for a few years, with a few airlines, you cant really comment on whats a better engine, as no reliable in service data is available.

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 11):
This was coming for some time!! RR has been trying to force QF to give up its RR business to RR itself rather than having QF do it. RR has been doing go-slows on parts orders for QF, sending the wrong parts etc etc in an effort to persuade QF to hand its RR maintenance over to RR. Then we have RR trying to win a big order for the 787!! - Good luck... you try to funny business with an airline and the end result is they overlook you when it comes to order time!

Yes you cant do this sort of thing, if you want to win orders
This is now a common theme in the industry aero engine makers are trying to sell a whole aftermarket package or forcing airlines to get their engines overhauled at "centre's of excellence" so that engine makers are making more money on after-sales support.
This is part of the way the MRO world is evolving, where scale is everything and if you dont have it, you will find it increasingly difficult to compete.


25 Boeing767-300 : I am not so sure. Given the success of the GE90-115B in comparison to Trents on 777s I would not be suprised to see SQ go for GEnx. The GE exclusivit
26 Gigneil : It was successful in terms of Boeing forcing the issue on their customers. A lot of Trent customers will tell you they love their engines and would n
27 DfwRevolution : Since it doesn't look like it has been quantified here, the market share of the respective engine options took a fairly dramatic swing with the Qantas
28 Stitch : The engine manufacturers controlled the process, not Boeing. GE and PW demanded exclusivity and while RR was willing to share, they were not willing
29 Albird87 : wait till AA order around 100 of them with Rollers engines!! That will help RR. (please AA get some money and grab some slots!!)
30 FriendlySkies : I was making fun of the fact that I work for GE (although a different business, so no connections)...
31 AA1818 : Could their selection of GE over their long-standing engine supplier RR be an indication of more things to come...such as 777s or 748's which are excl
32 Post contains images BA787 : and RR stands for Rugged + Reliable Shame for RR They really do need a big order
33 AirbusA6 : A big win for GE, I thought the Aussies owed us one after we let them have the Ashes back! It is interesting looking back, that RR dominated the early
34 Post contains images Jbernie : Thanks DfwR. I was looking for that info. I wonder how QF making this selection will influence the decisions of others. I don't see SQ being swayed f
35 Post contains images DfwRevolution : Air New Zealand was one of the first airlines to order the 787, well before QF made their order and engine selection. They have ordered their 787 wit
36 Nirvarma : I guess you meant NZ? NV
37 Norcal773 : Still waiting on PM's response to these news..lol
38 Korg747 : Can anyone say 747-8?
39 1337Delta764 : I agree, AA is a loyal RR customer. However, I still expect that GE will have a lead. Delta, the largest 767 operator, is likely to place an order fo
40 Norcal773 : Not that they have a choice here.
41 Alitalia744 : i would imagine whether they merge or not, DL will select GE for its 787 engines if they order the plane.
42 Luke7e7 : size wise, which engine is bigger, GEnX or Trent1000? , I would think GE, but i could be wrong.
43 Gemuser : QF has ALWAYS been a dual engine carrier since the B742s started arriving with RR engines. Then it was PW/RR, now its RR/GE. This order will keep it
44 Post contains images Wjcandee : Tell that to those Pinnacle pilots. But that said, they of course make a fine engine. I just wanted to deflate their employee's puffery just a bit.
45 Stitch : The Trent has a 1" larger fan diameter (112" vs. 111") but as to their actual physical size including the combuster and exhaust stages, I cannot say.
46 Luke7e7 : Wow! , that's really surprising for me , knowing that RR always had a smaller fan compared to the GE product (RB vs.CF-6 , and Trent vs. GE90)
47 Post contains images PM : I'm too traumatised to comment... But it'll take RR a L-O-N-G time to catch up with General Evil on the 787 now. If, indeed, they ever do...
48 LTU932 : If long means never, I wholeheartedly agree with you. Signed, BOE773
49 Molykote : On a related note, 2.95m is the largest fan diameter engine that can be shipped via 747F (at least according to Nicholas Cumpsty's book "Jet Propulsi
50 JetMech : I must say I was really hoping for RR to win this engine order; nonetheless, congratulations to GE. Regards, JetMech
51 Peh : This would have to be the stupidest sales tactic I've ever encountered. "I've got a good idea! Let's piss Qantas off big-time. Really get under their
52 PEET7G : Is there a place, where I can check the current standing of orders with manufacturers? Not only with the 787s?
53 Timboflier215 : Is this a rumour or were there reliable news sources or QF/ RR sources to back this up? Congrats to GE. I have to say, I'm not too surprised - QF may
54 TropicalSQ744 : You bet. Their engineering subsidary has a joint venture with RR and HKAESL. As a matter of fact, I'm working there now. Plus, if the above statement
55 Lumberton : Maybe I missed it, but did Flight Global carry this story? One would think that a hugely important development such as this would have merited mention
56 Post contains links NDSchu777 : PEET7G, the Wikipedia article on the 787 keeps a very up-to-date record of all the 787 orders as well as the engine decisions. You can find it at the
57 DAYflyer : This limitation obviously does not apply to the Dreamlifter
58 ClassicLover : Flight will hold the juicy stories until the paper issue, and then the paper issue from the week before hits the web site each Tuesday. So it will be
59 Post contains links Raggi : Press release now on GE's website: http://www.geae.com/aboutgeae/presscenter/genx/genx_20070228.html raggi
60 Post contains links Gemuser : http://www.qantas.com.au/regions/dyn.../details?ArticleID=2007/feb07/3548 Gemuser
61 ZKNBX : Quite possibly, but by no means probably... after all, SQ are flying GEs on their 77Ws aren't they?
62 Molykote : Sure, but presumably this design consideration was due to the fact that regular 747F aircraft can be routinely chartered for engine failure AOG scena
63 XT6Wagon : when the 787 is in full production it is set so that they only need 2 aircraft out of the 3 full time. I will bet that if Boeing finds out that the d
64 Ha763 : Not like they had a choice of engines on those 77Ws, did they?
65 Post contains images Boeing767-300 : Too True! You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. The GE-90-115B is a remarkable engine as many airlines that have been forced to
66 PM : "777X"? "Based upon the operation ... thus far"? "...would order more..."? 777-200ER? RR??
67 Boeing767-300 : Sorry PM perhaps I could have phrased that better. A RR 777 Trent operator that has since operated 77W (SQ EK even CX) would be more likely to order G
68 1337Delta764 : I agree completely. AC went with GEnx on their 787s since their new 777s will use GE engines. In the case of Delta, even though their 777-200ERs are
69 NDSchu777 : Between its first flight on the FTB and the huge Qantas order, this has definitely been a big week for the GEnx. Hopefully the program will continue t
70 Post contains images Lightsaber : Don't count RR out yet. Anywhere where climb performance is critical (e.g., India to Europe) is a region where RR will have an advantage. Also, its a
71 Post contains images CEO@AFG : I read a quote somewhere obviously from an airline executive, perhaps here on Airliners.net: "If I want an aircraft engine, I'll go see Pratt & Whitne
72 Post contains images KELPkid : Did that crazy guy from up north get banned or something? Haven't seen him around in a LOONG time...
73 Post contains images Stitch : Never. Might they decide to do this with the Trent XWB, or do you feel they will just try and scale up the original Trent 1700 design?
74 1337Delta764 : As stated, DL will probably choose GE, while AA will probably choose RR. UA is a tough one; they are traditionally a P&W customer. UA operates 737s w
75 Post contains images DfwRevolution : Dooh! Yes, that's exactly what I meant.
76 DfwRevolution : GE has deep pockets and are not afraid to use their money. They were the only engine manufacture to develop an all-new, clean-sheet engine for the 77
77 AirbusA6 : In the end of the day, there are only TWO suppliers on the 787 and A350, so between them BOTH GE and RR should make very good business. If you told a
78 Pygmalion : You will never see an engine carried in the Dreamlifter, no way, no how.
79 Pygmalion : The other thing that hasn't been mentioned is that RR has had pressure on its cash flow due to delivery slides on the RR powered A380s. It may be that
80 FlyDreamliner : Pratt shot themselves in the foot, it would amaze me if RR had been this stupid... whatever the mx they were trying to coerce QF into letting them ha
81 Fruitbat : And there lies the truth of the matter. Not only are GE prepared to throw huge resources at programme development, and become risk sharing partners i
82 XT6Wagon : here is an interesting idea, nothing prevents them from taking RR engines unless they sign a contract otherwise. Since the inital frames are all for l
83 Post contains images Lightsaber : Alas, I know no more than you. And reloaded and fired again. They'll be back... but when? On what? Lightsaber
84 PM : So how come DL chose RR for their 777-200ERs when they already operated CF6s and PW4000s? For that matter, how come SQ bought Trents for their 777-20
85 Post contains images Lightsaber : A tough fought contract where Pratt refused to cut the price to anything attractive... not to mention RR listened to their customers and delivered th
86 Post contains images Luke7e7 : "If I want an aircraft engine, I'll go see Pratt & Whitney or Rolls Royce. If I want a lightbulb, I'll go see General Electric"
87 Alitalia744 : DL chose RR because at the time, it was the best engine on the 777. GE's -94B came out and the rest is history... DL is going with GE on the -LRs bec
88 Post contains images PM : Meaning what, exactly? I assume you mean that it stole the market. Well, GE winning the AF and KL orders was hardly a coup (!) and after that we've g
89 Alitalia744 : the engine was further developed into the -115/110...we all know what those beasts are capable of. Do i ever?
90 Post contains images PM : Er, yes, but it's not immediately obvious what that has to do with DL buying Trent 892s, then GE launching the -94B (which DL didn't buy), then ... e
91 Alitalia744 : DL ordered 777s b4 the 94B was available. At the time the T892 was teh best engine for the Tri-7. Had the 94B been available, it would have been inte
92 Post contains images PM : Very. (And something tells me our best guesses won't agree... )
93 Gemuser : Where did you get this from? The initial frames are one for one replacement of current B767s. They fly everything from the 1:10 hour MEL-SYD sector t
94 Baroque : XT6W then draws from this the suggestion that if it really is long distance performance that has resulted in the GE engine being chosen, then the sam
95 XT6Wagon : but they are not, They have stated that the inital frames will be going to jetstar to start long haul operations. Rumors being this means America. Po
96 Gemuser : Miss information! I was talking about QF not JQ. The statement was that JQ COULD get the first 10 frames, according to JQ sources this is not yet set
97 Lumberton : Baroque, I realize you are just speculating, but one would think that with all the scrutiny that this deal has/is undergoing in Australia, wouldn't t
98 Timboflier215 : Thanks for the link, but I was not referring to the order. Instead, I was wondering if there were any sources to back up the claim that RR were pusin
99 Lumberton : Just a thought (and I'm not sure if it was noted earlier in this long thread; I didn't pick up on it if it was), could price be the "deal closer" here
100 1337Delta764 : Delta could have also chosen RR for their newer 767-300ERs as well, but chose GE instead. Delta never really was a serious RR customer, as none of th
101 PM : My point exactly. Thank you. In spite of no obvious record of choosing RR and with large GE and PW fleets, DL chose RR for their 777s. Here is an exa
102 Baroque : Indeed, just speculation, but it does seem to be the case that the financial underpinnings of the deal are going to turn out to be a bit more complex
103 Fruitbat : I don't think this would enter the equation, both RR and GE sell in US Dollars. Although it raises the interesting side issue that RR suffer/benefit
104 Post contains links Atmx2000 : Not at all. Currency issues are important. RR has taken a small hit so far from currency issues because of hedges, but that can't last indefinitely.
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