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Delta Challenges TWA  
User currently offlineContinentalEWR From United States of America, joined May 2000, 3762 posts, RR: 13
Posted (13 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 1420 times:

Delta Air Lines will introduce nonstop MD11 service to Tel Aviv from JFK as well as three weekly JFK-Cairo-
Dubai flights, also with MD11 aircraft.

TWA's last remaining transatlantic routes are now
very vulnerable to this latest encroachment by DL
onto TWA's turf.

TWFirst and the other TWA cheeleaders out there,
this is what I meant by clout, the other day, which
one of you called into question. Delta is building a
major presence at JFK, expanding on its existing
European service, doing what TWA never could,
which is to build feed onto overseas flights. Now,
I understand that TWA's problem has a lot to do
with Karabu and that is one of the many sad and
unfortunate legacies of the Icahn era, which has
destroyed TWA and deprived it of new aircraft
and capital when it needed it the most. Typical
of what happens when people who know nothing
about airlines suddenly decide it would be chic
to run one...

I predict TWA will operate a handful of flights to
STL, LAX, and SFO from JFK within a couple of
years. Delta will push them out of the Middle East
market they so strongly feel attached to. With
Continental's cross-town hub at Newark, there is
little room for TWA's anemic presence at JFK.
As a native New Yorker and a former frequent
flyer on TWA from JFK, it is sad to see this but
Delta will provide the area with the financial
backing to make these routes succeed.

ContinentalEWR



18 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineAdvancedkid From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 762 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (13 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 1307 times:

TWA certainly needs some help!
Regards to ye'all,
Advancedkid


User currently offlineTWAneedsNOhelp From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (13 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 1294 times:

TWAneedsHELP! (My first A.net handle)

User currently offlineN960AS From Switzerland, joined Apr 2000, 466 posts, RR: 7
Reply 3, posted (13 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 1281 times:

I replied about this in the first post about DL's expansion. All I have to say is I hope the best for TW and they can continue being the leaders in this market, they are a good airline with lots of exerience and I hope they make it. I wouldn't consider myself a "TW cheerleader". All I have to say is DL is going at them now. Recently AA started going after them, LAX-STL, LGA-STL, etc. Although TW did go head to head in the Caribbean (and SJU) with them. DL is also stepping on TW's toes in the fact that in 2001 the only JFK-Europe flight will be JFK-CDG and DL/Skyteam own it! I don't think and I certainly don't hope that soon TW will have LAx, SFO, and STL as its only flights from JFK. Remember the Caribbean has been done well for them so far.

~N960AS

My whole family is made up of native New Yorkers and most of them still live there and they don't really like to cross the Hudson to EWR. They are LGA people, they'll even change planes going from LGA to avoid JFK and EWR, crazy! I'm a JFK boy.


User currently offlineAdvancedkid From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 762 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (13 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 1276 times:

Hence you admit it now TWAneedsHELP?!

User currently offlineTWA902fly From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 3123 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (13 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 1279 times:

Although my name is TWA902fly my fav carrier is Delta, so good for them. But i agree if TWA looses trans-atlantic routes this will be sad.

-TWA902fly
Chicago Illinois



life wasn't worth the balance, or the crumpled paper it was written on
User currently offlineAdvancedkid From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 762 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (13 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 1260 times:

TWA glorious days are long gone
There used to be a time when TWA
had a considerable 747 fleet very
busy crossing the ocean with load
factors of 70% or better. There used
to be a time when TWA had inter-
European flights with a bunch of
727s that called Europe home. These
were the days when most Euopeans
thought TWA is/was a large airline,
alongside Pan Am I.
Just imagine things havent changed
for TWA, then they would be flying
B747-400s and B777s today and be
flying to almost every European capital
as well as adding Moscow and Beijing,
perhaps also adding flights to Singapore,
Japan and Australia....
So... what do you think TWA fans?
Regards,
Advancedkid


User currently offlineShinseki From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (13 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 1267 times:

ContinentalEWR, what could be the point the of your ridiculous post? That TWA should just pack up its bags and move on because Delta announces two extra flights? With that kind of attitude this company would have folded years ago.

Delta serves 21 European destinations out of JFK and Continental a similar number out of EWR and both have done so for years. So TWA having to compete in an uphill battle on European routes is hardly a new phenomenon! T-DUB's got guts!

CO is cutting the second daily TLV frequency, so Delta will simply take its place and the number of seats NYC-TLV will stay the same as it is now.

JFK-CAI-DXB may or may not work. Without fifth-freedom CAI-DXB rights there isn't a chance. Its a gamble, and Delta will probably be trounced out of the market when Emirates starts nonstop NYC-DXB service with the A340-500 in 2002.

There is a future for TWA at JFK---in 2003 when Karabu is history and the A318's arrive you will start to see all sorts of grand things happening.






User currently offlineAdvancedkid From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 762 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (13 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 1245 times:

Just wondering what the new abreviation
for TWA is... W still for "world"??
Advancedkid


User currently offlineACVITALE From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 922 posts, RR: 11
Reply 9, posted (13 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 1209 times:

Oh how quick you all are to tout TWA's demise. It is hardly so...

Delta is only going to fly 3x weekly JFK-CAI-DXB. Hardly a real threat to business travellers who look for convience. Additionally, There are NO 5th country rights between CAI-DXB for DL. Hence no lucrative traffic on the run. TWA enjoys 5th freedom rights between CAI-RUH and flies the run currently at 6x weekly soon to go daily.

TWA has the advantage of making enough money off CAI-RUH to fly the JFK-CAI segment empty daily if they wanted to. (They don't and they do make money.) As for the threat to TLV... Well overall seats are down. CO went from proposing 3x daily to 1 daily and TWA is still showing good loads and yields. Assuming DL goes in with 1 MD11 daily they haven't replaced the lost seats from Tower and the reduced CO frequencies. I would argue that TWA is still in fine form and considering the yield and traffic numbers they are in no danger.

DL on the otherhand is codesharing with LY on the run and is likely to do more damage to themselves with that arrangement then they are to TWA. LY has less then perfect customer service and tight seat pitch on an aging fleet. DL customers won't stand for it. The LY code on DLs MD11 promises to bring about low yield travellers and that does not help the bottom line. It should also be noted this is the 2nd try for DL to go to TLV and the previous 2 failed before as well.

Al


User currently offlineContinentalEWR From United States of America, joined May 2000, 3762 posts, RR: 13
Reply 10, posted (13 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 1195 times:

Yes Shinseki, but TWA might not be around in 2003 and in any case, are you suggesting the A318 would be a suitable plane for Middle Eastern flights? Get
off your high horse you jerk. You just post because you want to bash me. On
this thread, you have posted nothing of value. Nothing relevant.

ContinentalEWR


User currently offlineSkyliner777 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (13 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 1189 times:

I would have to agree with ContinentalEWR's assessment. TWA's stock price is basically worthless. It can't turn a profit on anything. It just keeps on loosing $.
Why on earth would anyone invest in TWA without the possibility of it merging
with another airline.

ContinentalEWR, you've said before TWA should look for a merger partner to
shore up its weaknesses. TWA may have been a great airline in the past and
judging by its service standards alone, it does buck the service trend among
the major US airlines, but it is a perennial money looser and if you believe
the economy is headed for a soft landing or a slowdown in 2001 and 2002,
TWA will have missed the spectacular profits streak US airlines have enjoyed
for the past five years.



User currently offlineB737-700 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (13 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 1170 times:


Sad to see this happening. Hope they can make a little money on their flights out of STL. E.g. the new one to FRA soon.

Cheers, B737-700


User currently offlineTWFirst From Vatican City, joined Apr 2000, 6346 posts, RR: 52
Reply 13, posted (13 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 1148 times:

ContinentalEWR:

Just now saw this thread.

Just wanted to let you know I wasn't calling your usage of the word "clout" into question on the other thread, but rather was curious what you meant when you said it. I wasn't sure I understood what you were saying, but you explained that above. Now that I understand what you meant, I'm not sure I would agree that "clout" is the correct word to use in this context, but I understand the point you're trying to make, and I do agree with your assessment that Delta passengers have more of an advantage (i.e. choices) if they are connecting through JFK. However, with the new AWA agreement, you can add three more destinations passengers can fly to from JFK on a TWA ticket: CMH, LAS and PHX. Add on TWC service, and mainline service to key markets, and it's not as if TW has no feed through JFK.

Advancekid: If you're so advanced, why can't you understand that today's TWA is not the TWA you described from yesteryear, nor are they trying to be, nor do they need to be. For example, Southwest is the most profitable airline in the country and they are not an international 747 carrier flying to far-flung European capitals. Not that TWA is SW either, but judging whether TW is a great airline by whether or not they fly to Moscow is silly.

And gee, your "W" comment was just so original. NOBODY has ever come up with that before. How do you do it??



An unexamined life isn't worth living.
User currently offlineContinentalEWR From United States of America, joined May 2000, 3762 posts, RR: 13
Reply 14, posted (13 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 1148 times:

TWFirst,

Fair enough....I agree that the HP alliance will give them somewhat of a boost at JFK with respect to PHX and LAS and the many connections through those 2
hubs, but considering that DL is building a close to 200 daily flight operation at
JFK by 2002 when the terminals are completed, I worry that TWA just will not be
able to survive at JFK with what it has left. That's all I meant by that. Late post,
long day, was tired.

ContinentalEWR


User currently offlineTWFirst From Vatican City, joined Apr 2000, 6346 posts, RR: 52
Reply 15, posted (13 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 1144 times:

I agree, it is a concern.





An unexamined life isn't worth living.
User currently offlineRayChuang From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 8002 posts, RR: 5
Reply 16, posted (13 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 1141 times:

Folks,

I hate to say this, but I kind of agree with ContinentalEWR's assessments.

Remember, we are now living in an age of heavy "hub and spoke" operations with one or two airlines heavily dominating a single airport (UA at ORD/DEN/SFO, AA at DFW/ORD/MIA, DL at ATL/CVG/JFK, CO at IAH/EWR/CLE, TW at STL, HP at PHX/LAS, and so on).

DL has a big advantage over TW for flights to Europe because DL bought all of Pan American's routes to Europe from the US East Coast, which gives them major leverage especially at JFK.

In retrospect, when Carl Icahn dropped the Karabu "bomb" on TWA and sold TW's trans-Atlantic rights to AA, it deprived the airline of much-needed liquidity needed to get new routes and more importantly buy new planes. If it weren't for the Karabu scheme, TW right now would be a major purchaser of either the 777-200ER or the A340-300 with as many as 25-30 planes in the fleet, flying from LAX, STL, JFK and BOS to destinations all over the Europe and the Middle East.


User currently offlineShinseki From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (13 years 9 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 1083 times:

Yes I was really suggesting the 318 be used on flights from JFK to the Middle East...   What I obviously meant is that TWA will regain a competitive foothold by having a 100-seat aircraft with transcon range!

ContinentalEWR, I find you to be a smug individual with an agenda that is always indicative of your role as CO Cheerleader. Put away your pom-poms please. What have you posted that is relevant? All I see is just some ninny worrying because Delta opens up two new flights on markets they have tried and failed in the past.

You try to pass yourself off as a TW fan, but then post defeatist crap like "Unless someone buys TWA and pumps money into it soon (and I assume that is what you are alluding to, ACVITALE) then TWA won't be around to stay. The
airline has no alliance partners, no profits, and is perenially struggling to re-
make itself, so far with limited success. "

Why not put your money where your mouth is and support the #1 ontime airline? But you would never do such a thing. Get down from those bleachers before you hurt yourself honey.





User currently offlineACVITALE From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 922 posts, RR: 11
Reply 18, posted (13 years 9 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 1067 times:

No one is planning to purchase TWA to my knowledge. The purchaser would subject their system to Karabu with any purchase over 24%. More likely what you will see is an equity investment. (Large amount of cash, some in notes, some in bonds, some in stock) followed by an aircraft order. (It is one way to guarantee an aircraft order to ones company, finance it by buying into the company!) Further, look for more codeshares and more alliances.

Al


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