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Plans To Ban Decade Old Planes In Indonesia!  
User currently offlinePeh From Australia, joined Nov 2006, 340 posts, RR: 0
Posted (7 years 7 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 5100 times:

Indonesian authorities are proposing a ban on all aircraft older than 10 years. This follows a spate of accidents, including the loss of a 737 and all souls earlier this year.

Is this not the most absurd, idiotic, totally pointless safety measure ever taken in the history of aviation???? I would much rather travel on a 20 year old plane that has been well maintained than a 5 year old plane that hasn't.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/travel/pl...ding/2007/02/28/1172338694458.html

[Edited 2007-02-28 09:12:09]


Flown: ATR72, DASH 8, 737, 747, 767, 777, A300, A320, A321, A330, A340, MD80
34 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineENU From Netherlands, joined Nov 2006, 1166 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (7 years 7 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 5072 times:

Actually, there is some point in it. With such a measure malafide airline companies, which ignore safety rules, are indirectly forced to leave the sector, because they cannot come up with the capital required to acquire new aircraft.

User currently offlinePeh From Australia, joined Nov 2006, 340 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (7 years 7 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 5056 times:

Quoting ENU (Reply 1):
malafide airline companies, which ignore safety rules, are indirectly forced to leave the sector

This is a bit extreme when there are so many other ways to achieve the same result. I mean, the authorities need to balance safety with the need to keep people flying. The demise of several local carriers will only hurt the aviation industry without necessarily improving safety. A double whammy for fliers.



Flown: ATR72, DASH 8, 737, 747, 767, 777, A300, A320, A321, A330, A340, MD80
User currently offlinePEET7G From Hungary, joined Jan 2007, 695 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (7 years 7 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 4999 times:

What makes them believe that those who can not maintain or fly safely an over 10 years old plane, will be able to operate responsibly a younger one? 10 years? That excludes lot of "new" designs... A320s and 737NGs even... this whole plan is as silly as the authorities in that country.  banghead 


Peet7G
User currently offlineHB-IWC From Indonesia, joined Sep 2000, 4507 posts, RR: 72
Reply 4, posted (7 years 7 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 4937 times:

I wouldn't bother too much about it. The idea is as moronic as the people behind it, and yet another display of the entire Indonesian society's lack of self criticism. It is easier to come up with a measure like this one because it implicitly shifts the blame for a spate of recent mishaps away from the local operators and towards the aircraft constructors. Earlier, the Indonesian Government has also issued a ban on the use of the B732, which is due to come into effect sometime next year. Unfortunately, the latest calamities with Adam Air involved the B734 and B733 respectively.

That said, nothing will likely ever be heard again about this proposal. As it goes, the Minister of Transportation, after a string of air, sea and railway accidents, is struggling to hang on to his job and wants to be seen to be tough these days. He's an idiot, which would be quite ok if it weren't for that fact that he is also utterly incompetent. He is now replacing the top bureaucrats in his ministry with equally incompetent individuals, in hopes of getting out of the country's transportation quagmire, but an end to the current woes is unfortunately not in sight. To the contrary, things will likely get worse before they might ever improve. There is no such thing as rock bottom in Indonesia...


User currently offlinePlymSpotter From Spain, joined Jun 2004, 11668 posts, RR: 60
Reply 5, posted (7 years 7 months 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 4924 times:

Would this though just be aircraft registered in Indonesia? If so, then the airlines would simply re-register their fleets else-where, a little like many ships are.


Dan Smile



...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
User currently offlineHB-IWC From Indonesia, joined Sep 2000, 4507 posts, RR: 72
Reply 6, posted (7 years 7 months 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 4918 times:

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 5):
Would this though just be aircraft registered in Indonesia? If so, then the airlines would simply re-register their fleets else-where, a little like many ships are.

This strategy is unlikely to work as the Indonesian government does not allow non-PK registrations to operate in the country's domestic network. All aircraft used for domestic operations have to be registered here - a registration process, which, I might add, is a very lucrative business for those government officials involved, as envelopes stacked with cash are likely to change hands throughout the entire process.


User currently offlinePeh From Australia, joined Nov 2006, 340 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (7 years 7 months 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 4853 times:

Not too long ago, I remember reading an article about the Indonesian President's 33 year old Fokker F-28. So, will this plane be banned from the skies along with the 737's? It would be over three times the authorised age.

http://english.people.com.cn/200607/05/eng20060705_280321.html



Flown: ATR72, DASH 8, 737, 747, 767, 777, A300, A320, A321, A330, A340, MD80
User currently offlineNitrohelper From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 469 posts, RR: 5
Reply 8, posted (7 years 7 months 4 weeks ago) and read 4701 times:

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 6):
a very lucrative business for those government officials involved, as envelopes stacked with cash are likely to change hands throughout the entire process.

For those folks in the world that haven't done business with the Indonesian bureaucrats , let me add to this fine quote. The smoothness of the envelope system is one thing that has been refined, and is operated efficiently in Indoland.
The bigger the projects, , , the fatter the envelopes, and the more junior staffers happy to learn the system. And if someone in the chain asks for "too much" in his position , there is always another staff member ready to "help-out".
How can you make a $1000 dollars a month salary, and drive a BMW, have a Singapore condo, and a villa in the mountains, some kids in school abroad? Well I guess 25-30 years of "government service" should do it.


User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31684 posts, RR: 56
Reply 9, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 4622 times:

If their Maintenance is Suspect.Tackle that.No point Banning an Aircraft over 20 yrs.
An Aircraft well maintained can fly on much beyond that.

regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineSEPilot From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 6955 posts, RR: 46
Reply 10, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 4600 times:

Quoting Peh (Thread starter):
Indonesian authorities are proposing a ban on all aircraft older than 10 years.

Why not ban pilots over 10 years old? From what I've read they're at least as much to blame as the planes....
 duck 



The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
User currently offlineGFFgold From Indonesia, joined Feb 2007, 443 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 4442 times:

Many apologies, blush, I posted a quote from today's Jakarta Post on a new thread which should have been posted here:

source www.thejakartapost.com

>Following a spate of fatal accidents in the transportation sector, the government is considering banning the operation of aircraft and ships that are more than 10 years old, Transportation Minister Hatta Radjasa says.

Hatta said that in addition to reducing the maximum permissible age of aircraft and ships, the government would also allocate more money for the maintenance of transportation infrastructure, including airports and seaports.

"Our focus now is passenger safety," Hatta said Wednesday after a meeting with Vice President Jusuf Kalla, which took place on board a train during a one-day inspection by Kalla of the railway between Jakarta and Yogyakarta.

A series of major accidents have occurred over the past few months, including the capsizing of a ferry in the Java Sea, the crash of an aircraft operated by Adam Air in the Makassar Strait, and the recent fire aboard the Levina I ferry just offshore from Jakarta's Tanjung Priok Port.

Between 80 and 90 percent of the aircraft operating in Indonesia are more than 10 years old. At present, the maximum permissible age of a commercial aircraft is 35 years.
<<

As others have said, this is basically just hot air so that the officials concerned look like they are doing something - even if that something is just talking about crazy ideas. Even if, by some miracle, this nonsense was put into action notice that it is a very cheap and easy option for the transportation ministry to dictate an arbitrary ban rather than enforcing or augmenting existing safety regulations.


User currently offlineGneissGuy From Singapore, joined Jul 2006, 200 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 4438 times:

Maintainance and safety regulations/checks/enforcement is the key, not aircraft age.

Period.


User currently offlineHB-IWC From Indonesia, joined Sep 2000, 4507 posts, RR: 72
Reply 13, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 4410 times:

Quoting GneissGuy (Reply 12):
Maintainance and safety regulations/checks/enforcement is the key, not aircraft age.

Tell that to the bright lights in the Indonesian Government! Then again, most of the people are barely educated and completely out of touch with reality. I don't expect to come anything of it, but meanwhile the headline surves an interesting purpose: to shift the blame away from the abysmal track records of some of the domestic operators and towards the aircraft constructors. Indonesians will do anything not to have to admit mistakes, and this is yet another example of that attitude.

As stated in the article, between 80 and 90 percent of the aircraft registered in Indonesia (my personal estimate is that the number is actually closer to if not exceeding 90 percent) are older than 10 years, so such a ban would inevitable decimate the domestic air travel in Indonesia, including the comfortable business travel on Garuda Indonesia for those government officials and their extended families.

Meanwhile, the shabby track records of the airline companies once again remains largely untouched by the ongoing discussions. Let's not forget that quite some powerful people within the government and the military are behind many of these airlines, and behind the scenes pressure has undoubtedly been mounted in order to let the airlines get away with their practices.


User currently offlineGFFgold From Indonesia, joined Feb 2007, 443 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 4389 times:

An even more dippy discussion was reported in the Jak Post the other day (sorry, can't find the article now) about the Jakarta city council buying a substantial stake in Garuda. It would just about finish GA off to have those guys calling the shots - as witness their attempts to manage the capital's drainage during recent flooding.

User currently offlineNitrohelper From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 469 posts, RR: 5
Reply 15, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 4289 times:

Quoting GFFgold (Reply 14):
as witness their attempts to manage the capital's drainage during recent flooding.

Not to mention the 60 years since the Dutch stopped the Maintenance ! The current government has been building a "solution " for the last 20 years, , , just not finished yet . They just need to buy all the land & then start construction someday ?


User currently offlineAccess-Air From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 1939 posts, RR: 13
Reply 16, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 4248 times:

Sounds like of a simple fix to cover up their own internal problems with their airlines.....
Nigeria did that with the BAC One Elevens....Hop in them and fly them without regard of Weight and balance or being over weight or flying in ALL weather no matter what and flying by the seat of your pants....Oh yes the logical answer was to ground all those big, bad, naughty old airplanes.....
How about grounding all those bag,bad, naughty pilots that ned to go back to Cessna 152 school??????

Access-Air



Remember, Wherever you go, there you are!!!!
User currently offlinePeh From Australia, joined Nov 2006, 340 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 4178 times:

I'd forgotten about the BAC One Elevens. It seems that this level of stupidity isn't unprecedented.


Big version: Width: 640 Height: 492 File size: 113kb



Flown: ATR72, DASH 8, 737, 747, 767, 777, A300, A320, A321, A330, A340, MD80
User currently offlineGFFgold From Indonesia, joined Feb 2007, 443 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 4105 times:

What a picture! I know it's going off topic for this thread but I'm fascinated to know this BAC1-11 story.

User currently offlineKretek From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2006, 95 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 4047 times:

I would take this as a pinch of salt i.e not to be taken seriously. The transportation minister Hatta was most likely steaming off hot air and making knee-jerk remarks. The Jakarta Post ran an editorial about him in that he should resign after a spate of public transport incidents. On Metro TV, on of the the satire comedy programs, they portray Hatta as lazy, dosing off to sleep at his desk - which basically sums it up.

User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31684 posts, RR: 56
Reply 20, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 3959 times:

Quoting Kretek (Reply 19):

What do the Regulatory Authorities say.
regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineUK_Dispatcher From United Arab Emirates, joined Dec 2001, 2595 posts, RR: 30
Reply 21, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 3949 times:

This proposal is just absolutely moronic and this whole situation is becoming an embrassment to the country of Indonesia. What has become apparent is that there is not a single person in the Indonesian government who has figured that a well maintained aircraft is safe no matter what its age.

I guess this means that almost every airline in Indonesia will need to replace its fleet. Pathetic!


User currently offlineMandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 6921 posts, RR: 76
Reply 22, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 3897 times:

Quote:
Actually, there is some point in it. With such a measure malafide airline companies, which ignore safety rules, are indirectly forced to leave the sector, because they cannot come up with the capital required to acquire new aircraft.

Oh believe me they will find the capital to acquire new aircraft... So, this policy will make new planes get ruined faster...

It's a case of blaming something that's not to blame... for the umpteenth time !

After "protests" (or more like logic prevailing) over the past 24hrs, today a new press release was made, that the previous announcement was directed at new aircraft coming into Indonesia.

Again, this is still total baloney and it will basically strangle most of the airlines in the meantime.

Now, isn't this also coincidental that the airline he's "close to" is going to have waves of factory fresh aircraft this year? There are "rumours" that the Minister of Transport and the Vice President has money in that carrier.

Rumours of such an announcement like this was already running around the industry since 2005. Previously, this rumour was that Lion Air would continue having their MD80s overrunning at every plausible opportunity, and that when their MD80 has another fatal crash, the minister would ban the aircraft type, hence Lion can claim force majeure on the leases... then the series of Adam Air mishaps again, and the rumour was quicklyforgotten until 1Jan this year.

There are expected parallels to the previous rumour. The director of Air Comms is getting the sack, as expected, and it has been suspected for a while that letting him stay in that position was deliberate.

However, a ban on >10yr old aircraft coming into the country is extremely convenient for Lion, with Batavia struggling to come up with a few more Airbuses, and recently "rumoured" to have resorted into seeking used A320s, and having their 732/4s being cannibalized to keep the remainder of the fleet going. With Adam now having a cash drain and freefalling yields, the only other big competitors (not state owned) left for Lion Air will be Sriwijaya, and Indo Air Asia. Indo Air Asia's long string of delays due to lack of spares (yes Thank You Mr. Fernandez!) is being looked at with great interest by the Department of Transport, and their whole fleet consists of early built 733s. Then Sriwijaya, who have been doing magic with their old fleet of 732s, recently, it is said that it is getting "more difficult" to import spare parts for the 732s, and that their growth is halted due to the ban on incoming 732s imposed last year. This announcement would throw its plans to introduce the 734s into its fleet middle of this year.

What will happen is that while good players are getting hit, there'll be more dirty money being aired to pay for new planes for "naughty operators"... which will make the skies more dangerous!

Furthermore, the infrastructure cannot accept large scale introduction of the A32X and NG family. The whole infrastructure hasn't even finished adapting to the move from F28/DC9 to 732/734 standards! With A32X and NG becoming the "mandatory standard", expect a few ground collissions involving wingtips unless the infrastructure is upgraded/expanded.

There are a few very good start up projects that have been hit by the Adam Air crash, and now this announcement... If this announcement becomes law, then expect mass bankruptcies of the airlines here next year (where a LOT of fleet rejuvenation plans have scheduled mass rejuvenation to <20yr old aircraft)...

Or perhaps this is a way for the minister to say to the soon to go Director of AIr Comms, "You've shown yourself publicly to be with Adam, so I'm now showing my airline affiliation..."

LOL

Mandala499



When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
User currently offlineBennett123 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 7690 posts, RR: 3
Reply 23, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 3765 times:

Clearly banning all aircraft over 10 years will help, no plane ever crashed when it was safely parked in a hangar  Smile

Terrible shame about the Benin City BAC111's.

Are they still sitting there rotting away?.

David


User currently offlinePeh From Australia, joined Nov 2006, 340 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 3654 times:

A guy bythe name of Peter Clark has put together a website on the One Eleven. It's not the most sophisticated site I've ever seen but it's informative. It shows a significant number of the aircraft still grounded in Nigeria.

http://www.bac1-11jet.co.uk/bac1-11jet.co.uk%20Stored%20Fleet.htm



Flown: ATR72, DASH 8, 737, 747, 767, 777, A300, A320, A321, A330, A340, MD80
25 SJCRRPAX : They need to ban the ferry boats too. I believe they have a ferry boat sink almost every year taking 300, 400, 500 people everytime. I seem to remembe
26 Alessandro : Well, Nigeria (another country infamous for their lack of aviation safety) suggested this before, I like to call it "the Nigerian solution". If this h
27 Usair320 : Makes no sence. If companys like Adam air would just get their S*** together then this wouldnt be an issue.
28 Post contains images Peh : How about cars over 10 years old? Bikes? Skateboards? Pogo Sticks? Segways... probably a bit early for that.
29 GFFgold : True, but until the central government gets its own S*** together Adam can do pretty much what he likes. Mandala499 hit the nail on the head - a ban
30 HB-IWC : As far as I can see, they are barely hanging in there. The second daily service is often cancelled and even the morning service is operating at a loa
31 Mandala499 : How? You'd probably notice if you sit in Changi everyday that it's served by no more than 3 aircraft from Adam's fleet, with 1 being the most regular
32 Post contains links Peh : Just heard about the Garuda 734. Does anyone have any idea how old this aircraft was? http://www.smh.com.au/news/general/7...ster/2007/03/07/117316675
33 Post contains links Alessandro : According to http://www.aviation-safety.net it was born in 1992.
34 Post contains images PEET7G : Well this crash will probably give new wind to the sails of the idiots coming up with these stupid regulations, without addressing the real issues in
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