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TAM To Relaunch FRA + Codeshare With Lufthansa  
User currently offlineJimyvr From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 4943 times:

Brazil's TAM is poised to strike a deal with Lufthansa for codesharing as the Brazilian carrier is preparing to re-launch Sao Paulo - Frankfurt soon

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...de-shares-as-varig-quits-star.html


..............The source does not identify Lufthansa by name but makes clear that TAM expects Varig to withdraw from the route soon from the route after losing access to the Star Alliance hub in Frankfurt..................

45 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineLeskova From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 6075 posts, RR: 70
Reply 1, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 4928 times:

That would be absolutely superb! Finally a decent South American airline as partner for LH!!!  thumbsup  ... now if they could only get JJ into the Star Alliance...


Smile - it confuses people!
User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 50
Reply 2, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 4861 times:

There are strong indications that VARIG will cease operations GIG-GRU-FRA because the 2 MD-11s they use for the route will be returned to lessor.

Yet again, there are strong indications that TAM is very close to a deal for flights distribution, i.e. codeshare, with LH. TAM was also invited to join Star Alliance. As for now, it seems that it is getting very difficult for TAM to have the best of all the world: AA in MIA, AF in CDG and in the future LH in FRA. This is not sustainable and TAM will need to make up its mind. If TAM closes a deal with LH, I am sure AF will not renew its agreement with TAM and with TAM's 3 daily flights to CDG will become unsustainable.

On the other hand, all airlines are after TAM because they need to distribute pax in Brazil and/or Southern Cone. Today TAM announced a new management position which overseas international alliances, so the airline is giving greater importance to the issue.

Rgs,


User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8875 posts, RR: 40
Reply 3, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 4698 times:

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 2):

Do you think it would be feasible for JJ to split certain markets between AF and LH?

Say LH keeps German connections as well as Scandinavian + Japan.

AF keeps European + Africa and the rest of Asia.

Or something similar. . .



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlineAvianca From Venezuela, joined Jan 2005, 5900 posts, RR: 40
Reply 4, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 4442 times:

would be just great if true.... hopefully TAM is on the way to star....


Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
User currently offlineLTU932 From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 13864 posts, RR: 50
Reply 5, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 4437 times:

Quoting Leskova (Reply 1):
... now if they could only get JJ into the Star Alliance...

 checkmark 

With RG leaving the alliance after their bankruptcy, JJ is pretty much the only suitable candidate for any alliance at all.


User currently offlineAndahuailas From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 138 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 4406 times:

Relaunch ????????


IThey never served FRA before, this would be a launch, not relaunch


User currently offlineAirMale From Botswana, joined Sep 2004, 375 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 4375 times:

Andahuallas: of course TAM flew to Frankfurt with extension to Zurich for a short while in 2001 if i remember correctly...


.....up there with the best!
User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 50
Reply 8, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 4330 times:

Quoting AirMale (Reply 7):
Andahuallas: of course TAM flew to Frankfurt with extension to Zurich for a short while in 2001 if i remember correctly...

Correct, TAM served GRU-FRA-ZRH for about 6 months in 2001. However, the route proved was not sustainable - bear in mind 2001 was a year "atypical" for the aviation industry with many airlines closing routes.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 3):
Do you think it would be feasible for JJ to split certain markets between AF and LH?

In practical terms, I dont think this is feasible. But TAM has all factors on its side because carriers need a partner in Brazil to distribute pax. AF last year was in talks with GOL if an agreement with TAM could not be reached.

Rgs,


User currently offlineThorben From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 4314 times:

Very nice to see JJ at FRA. They were one of the few major carriers missing there. Germany and Brazil have a lot of traffic between them, maybe JJ will someday use their biggest planes for the route to FRA. Any news about MUC?

User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 50
Reply 10, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 4306 times:

Quoting Thorben (Reply 9):
Any news about MUC

LH already serves MUC-GRU daily. We could expect LH to reintroduce FRA-GIG in the future, with the process acelerated under an umbrela agreement LH-TAM. I think FRA-GIG nonstop is one of the major gaps currently in Europe-Brazil operations. All in all, LH-LX need to reconsider their operations to South America since the airline is far behind AF-KL which serve nonstop GRU, GIG, EZE, and SCL. Star is in desperate need of a partner in Brazil.

Rgs,


User currently offlineLeskova From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 6075 posts, RR: 70
Reply 11, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 4222 times:

Quoting Andahuailas (Reply 6):
They never served FRA before, this would be a launch, not relaunch

As already mentioned, they most certainly did serve FRA, though, unfortunately, not for long... I booked quite a few people on those flights back then, and I had tons of extra work when they axed the flights and I had to change all those bookings...

And, yes, they flew their own planes here - it was no codeshare nor anything else... we had TAM planes here at the airport.



Smile - it confuses people!
User currently offlineJohnnybgoode From Germany, joined Jan 2001, 2187 posts, RR: 6
Reply 12, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 4154 times:

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 2):
TAM was also invited to join Star Alliance. As for now, it seems that it is getting very difficult for TAM to have the best of all the world: AA in MIA, AF in CDG and in the future LH in FRA. This is not sustainable and TAM will need to make up its mind.

i think they are making up their minds. it seems they are testing out the major partners of the three major alliances and sometime down the road, they could end up in one of the three alliances.

from today's perspective wouldn't the combined forces of JJ and TP (if it was Star) and to a lesser extent those of JJ and IB (if it was onewolrd) raise regulatory concerns on routes across the South Atlantic?

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 10):
All in all, LH-LX need to reconsider their operations to South America since the airline is far behind AF-KL which serve nonstop GRU, GIG, EZE, and SCL. Star is in desperate need of a partner in Brazil.

i don't understand why so many people on this forum claim that LH must redesign the Latin American network. Granted, LH's network lacks the nonstop service and destinations as a combined AF/KL entity. however, those carriers lag behind LH when it comes to Asian service, and this is where the money is.
I am not claiming that AF/KL are losing money in South America, as their expansion in this area suggests they're doing fine. clearly, the LH and AF/KL groups have different strategies and LH focuses less on South America, with the exception of Brazil.
this is why I am very sure that any LH service to GIG would indeed be routed via GRU. this way, LH could further expand its mini-hub at GRU to not only offering onestop connections from FRA, MUC, ZRH to SCL and EZE, but also include GIG (note: the current MUC-GRU daylight service is rumored to become a late night departure soon, thus enabling LH/LX connections at GRU).



If only pure sweetness was offered, why's this bitter taste left in my mouth.
User currently offlineJoFMO From Germany, joined Jul 2004, 2211 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 4127 times:

Quoting Johnnybgoode (Reply 12):
i don't understand why so many people on this forum claim that LH must redesign the Latin American network. Granted, LH's network lacks the nonstop service and destinations as a combined AF/KL entity. however, those carriers lag behind LH when it comes to Asian service, and this is where the money is.

But I don't see that KLM/AF is in any way weaker in Asia than LH/LX.

KLM/AF has nonstops to MNL, SGN, KUL, Chendgu. All destinations which are only onestop with LH, or not even existend as Chendgu.
The only region in Asia where LH is little bit in front of AF/KLM might by India. But thats it. To everywhere else KLM/AF is as strong or even stronger than LH/LX.


User currently offlineKiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8492 posts, RR: 14
Reply 14, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 4103 times:
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Quoting Johnnybgoode (Reply 12):
from today's perspective wouldn't the combined forces of JJ and TP (if it was Star) and to a lesser extent those of JJ and IB (if it was onewolrd) raise regulatory concerns on routes across the South Atlantic?

I think JJ in oneworld would give a dangerously high dominance in South America not just from the transatlantic perspective - you already have the 4 LAN airlines ( OK 2 LAN airlines with 2 more joining ) , AA and IB all in OW ( not to mention the possibility of LA ending up with a stake in the new Varig if it survives ) .

My own preference would definitely be for JJ to join Star ( although I admit this is more due to the fact that for anyone from Australia / New Zealand Skyteam is very much the "who?" alliance since they are pretty much useless in that corner of the world ) . I believe that recently JJ management were quoted as saying that their current preference was to develop bilateral agreements rather than plunging into an alliance - but this is the aviation industry where last weeks press release is often contradicted by this weeks , so I guess we will have to wait and see .



Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
User currently offlineStylo777 From Turkey, joined Feb 2006, 2904 posts, RR: 12
Reply 15, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 4098 times:

Quoting Andahuailas (Reply 6):
Relaunch ????????


IThey never served FRA before, this would be a launch, not relaunch


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Paul Spijkers



User currently offlineKiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8492 posts, RR: 14
Reply 16, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 4092 times:
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Quoting Stylo777 (Reply 15):

Thanks for the photo Stylo777 - is it just me or was that an RR powered A330 ? I thought that JJ had PW powered A330s?



Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
User currently offlineStylo777 From Turkey, joined Feb 2006, 2904 posts, RR: 12
Reply 17, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 4080 times:

Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 16):
Thanks for the photo Stylo777 - is it just me or was that an RR powered A330 ? I thought that JJ had PW powered A330s?

this is an ex Gulf Air aircraft and already in service with GF again. it is RR Trent 772B-60 powered.

the a330's they use actually are all equipped with CF6-80E1A3 and PW4168A engines IIRC.

[Edited 2007-03-01 14:24:42]

User currently offlineAirSpare From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 589 posts, RR: 6
Reply 18, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 4062 times:

Slightly OT-

As the thread migrated to JJ's possible alliance preferences, does Star, OneWorld, etc. negogiate for aircraft purchase/discounts?

What alliance would make most sense for JJ, route wise? Aircraft purchase wise?

As I work in LAD every once in a while, it sure would be nice to fly JJ LAD-GRU-NAT-GRU-MIA-MCO rather then the torture LAD-LHR-MIA-MCO, stop for paper work, MCO-MIA-GRU-NAT and back to MCO-MIA-LHR-LAD.

Point to Point please! Come on JJ, open a mini hub in the Nordeste!



Get someone else for your hero worship fetish
User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 50
Reply 19, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 4054 times:

Quoting Johnnybgoode (Reply 12):
LH when it comes to Asian service, and this is where the money is.

You are wrong.

AF/KL operations in GIG, GRU, EZE, CCS, and even CCS, SCL, LIM - all operated NONSTOP - and are very profitable. Particularly GRU, GIG and EZE are a "cash machine" for AF/KL, and can beat any destination in Asia in terms of profits and yields.

AF/KL had demonstrated that with the righ network, South American flights are highly lucrative.

Quoting Johnnybgoode (Reply 12):
LH service to GIG would indeed be routed via GRU

LH will never manage to compete with LH if it decides to route GIG flight via GRU. For your information, AF already announced 6 added nonstop CDG-FRA which will increase its flights CDG-GIG nonstop to 11 weekly flights. If LH wants anything out of GIG, it needs nonstop flight. I hold the same comment about EZE and SCL. This means LH should still focus on GRU, however, destinations such as EZE and GIG cannot be competitive without nonstop flights at current market conditions.

In sum, LH so far had manage very poorly its operations in South America and needs to do a lot of homework to catch up with AF/KL.

Rgs,


User currently offlineStylo777 From Turkey, joined Feb 2006, 2904 posts, RR: 12
Reply 20, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 4031 times:

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 19):
LH will never manage to compete with LH if it decides to route GIG flight via GRU. For your information, AF already announced 6 added nonstop CDG-FRA which will increase its flights CDG-GIG nonstop to 11 weekly flights. If LH wants anything out of GIG, it needs nonstop flight. I hold the same comment about EZE and SCL. This means LH should still focus on GRU, however, destinations such as EZE and GIG cannot be competitive without nonstop flights at current market conditions.

LH isn't focussing so much on South America. Their cash-maschines are North America and Asia. This is the reason why they only have 3 flights to South America:
FRA-GRU-EZE
FRA-CCS
MUC-GRU
and they are doing good on that ones. that's enough for them I guess.

If they wouldn't code-share with LX on GRU-SCL I could believe to see FRA-GIG-SCL in the future, but now I don't think that they will lunch that one.


User currently offlineJohnnybgoode From Germany, joined Jan 2001, 2187 posts, RR: 6
Reply 21, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 3975 times:

Quoting Stylo777 (Reply 20):
LH isn't focussing so much on South America. Their cash-maschines are North America and Asia.

Thank you! for underlining my arguments.

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 19):
You are wrong.

AF/KL operations in GIG, GRU, EZE, CCS, and even CCS, SCL, LIM - all operated NONSTOP - and are very profitable. Particularly GRU, GIG and EZE are a "cash machine" for AF/KL, and can beat any destination in Asia in terms of profits and yields.

AF/KL had demonstrated that with the righ network, South American flights are highly lucrative.

Dude, I am very aware that those are nonstop flights. Also, I explicitly stated in my post that there network is seemingly doing quite well, otherwise they would not expand it. Still, I have strong doubts that GIG can beat any Asia destination in terms of yield. GRU could probably come close, for LH it does.

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 19):
LH will never manage to compete with LH if it decides to route GIG flight via GRU. For your information, AF already announced 6 added nonstop CDG-FRA which will increase its flights CDG-GIG nonstop to 11 weekly flights. If LH wants anything out of GIG, it needs nonstop flight. I hold the same comment about EZE and SCL.

that's my point. i agree they can't compete with AF/KL in terms of convenient nonstop destinations. but I'm quite sure LH doesn't want to and doesn't have to compete with them on the same level. South America seems to be a focus area for AF/KL, but not so with LH. this is nothing but a sign of different strategies for this area of the world of Europe's largest network carriers, it doesn't have to be a sign of low or no profits for LH.

some years ago, LH was serving EZE on a nonstop basis but incurring nothing but losses. they hoped to turn it around when they put the new A346s into service on that route, and the rest is histroy. if it had been successful, they would have maintained this service, but they reverted back to onestop service through GRU and they seem to be happier with it this way.

is it so unimaginable that LH now has a more viable Latin American network, routing most flights through GRU, than before? so if it is viable, and if it's not their focus area, why should they invest significantly into competing with AF/KL if that was a very difficult road to travel?



If only pure sweetness was offered, why's this bitter taste left in my mouth.
User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 50
Reply 22, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 3865 times:

Quoting Johnnybgoode (Reply 21):
Still, I have strong doubts that GIG can beat any Asia destination in terms of yield. GRU could probably come close, for LH it does.

In the case of AF, GIG beats many asiain destinations. GRU is no comment, one of the strongest markets worldwide. What I said and I repeat is that LH is missing out in South America to AF/KL and, yes, AF/KL get profits and yields in South America as high as and even higher than as compared to Asian destinations.

LH is doing a terrible job in South America. It is a question of management. Look at AF performance in GIG, it is a very profitable flight. The bottom line is that AF/KL is outperforiming LH in the region perhaps because LH had this "false" anectodal understanding such as "GIG is low-yield", AF prove this wrong.

Quoting Johnnybgoode (Reply 21):
LH doesn't want to and doesn't have to compete with them on the same level.

For me it is a question of poor management.

Quoting Johnnybgoode (Reply 21):
s it so unimaginable that LH now has a more viable Latin American network, routing most flights through GRU, than before?

I dont think LH mini-hub in GRU is working. Sorry to disagree. AF strategy was much better and now LH has plenty to cath up, especially in markets such as EZE and GIG.

Rgs,


User currently offlineLH459 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 886 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 3718 times:

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 22):
For me it is a question of poor management.

Allegations of poor management for one of the most consistently profitable airlines in the world? I'm sorry, that is very hard to accept. I think Johnnybgoode understands LH's position in South America quite well.



"I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is temporary; the evil it does is permanent" - Ghandi
User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11365 posts, RR: 59
Reply 24, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 3676 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting Jimyvr (Thread starter):
Brazil's TAM is poised to strike a deal with Lufthansa for codesharing as the Brazilian carrier is preparing to re-launch Sao Paulo - Frankfurt soon

If it's become real, probably AF-JJ partnership could be ended or even reduced. A LH-JJ partnership IMO will take TAM to run GRU-CDG with a single 77W plane in 2008. As TAM has two A332 to be received later this year, they could run the GRU-FRA flight, but i believe Tam will face some hard time with AF at CDG.

Quoting Johnnybgoode (Reply 21):
Thank you! for underlining my arguments.

I understand and agree that LH doesn't focus on Latin America. But IMO, as they have a strong focus on Asia, where the competition is become stronger (while only Tam and Lan nowadays are real competitors with limited widebodies fleet, Asian players are every month receiving many widebodies and increasing the routes and links with US and Europe), in the near future they will face a reduction of their profits, while AF, with a worldwide more balanced network, and not so focused on Asia, will take the advantage of other markets that could not grow so much as Asia, but where they are major players.

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 19):
For your information, AF already announced 6 added nonstop CDG-FRA which will increase its flights CDG-GIG nonstop to 11 weekly flights

Little correction: not CDG-FRA, CDG-GIG and 13 weekly flights.

Quoting Johnnybgoode (Reply 21):
some years ago, LH was serving EZE on a nonstop basis but incurring nothing but losses. they hoped to turn it around when they put the new A346s into service on that route, and the rest is history. if it had been successful, they would have maintained this service, but they reverted back to one stop service through GRU and they seem to be happier with it this way

The only one happier is AF that received SCL, EZE and GIG as exclusive markets. LH has poor results in Brazil, a possible little profit last year and just because they run the network now with 3 planes only instead of 4 in the past. And the SCL-GRU continues for sure to face loss of money. Use to be with A346 while GRU-SCL was a 5 flights per day route, imagine now with 10 daily flights and GOL and LAN selling Y for US$ 170. No way to be profitable with an A343 even selling C and F (not the case of GRU-SCL leg).
If you ask for sources, you can read lots of reports from LH Brazil staff, and i can send some to you very easy.

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 22):
In the case of AF, GIG beats many asiain destinations.

Agree 100% and AF proves that.

Felipe



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
25 JoFMO : LH certainly is one of the best managed airlines in the world. But in regards to South America Hardy is right. AF/KLM has an even better strategy the
26 Stylo777 : as I said before they are focussing on North America (especially USA) and Asia. They can't or hardly can focus on more. You have also take the size o
27 JoFMO : LH focusses on North America and Asia and neglects South America. AF/KLM focusses on North America, Asia, Africa AND South America. Thats the differe
28 AF086 : LH is indeed a very well managed airline and I agree with you all when you say that their South American policy is just rubbish. I include BA on this
29 Lp0815 : ???
30 LipeGIG : Hardi tried to say LH will never manage to compete with AF .... Felipe
31 Hardiwv : Correct, Lipe. And I repeat, LH can ONLY enter GIG market if it introduces FRA-GIG nonstop. As of October/07 AF will offer 13 weekly NONSTOP flights
32 AF086 : Agreed Hardi. If LH is counting on TP for connections they're making a mistake since TP can only provide intraeuropean connections and some african a
33 Johnnybgoode : I am really curious how you can consider yourself in a position to judge on that? how can you say that LH operations in Latin America are poorly mana
34 LipeGIG : Up to now, seems that LH474 MUC-YUL will be not part of LH network for the next IATA winter. Effective October 28 they flight is not uploaded on the s
35 Hardiwv : I think you have not understood my point. I agree that GRU is the prime destination in the region, and even more regarding Germnay-Brazil business. L
36 DALCE : LH is one of the best managed airlines in the world, and LH is not a very strong contender in Latin America. The main reason is lack of widebodies,of
37 LHStarAlliance : Great to see JJ back in FRA , I hope they join *A . Will they fly the 777 to FRA ?
38 LHUSA : LH is actually starting DTW-FRA double-daily both with A333s on March 25th. Also, on March 31 LH begins DEN-MUC.
39 DALCE : I must have mixed up those! A lot of changes coming up again in the scedule! Will MUC-DEN be served by 343 or 346?
40 LHUSA : A343 - I believe it's 8F 36C 197Y.
41 LipeGIG : LHStarAlliance, it could be. TAM will for sure fly the 77W to the destinations they should have some space for improvement. IMO CDG could receive all
42 FLYYUL : LIPEGIG, MUCYUL is always seasonal...
43 Johnnybgoode : man, i don't want to be disrespectful, but you do not have any inside knowledge of LH/LX but yet you claim LH must serve both destinations on a nonst
44 JJMNGR : Felipe, Beyond these 02 new A332 scheduled for NOV, the company is looking for additional A332 for the next months...it is not being easy but there is
45 LipeGIG : Thanks FlyYUL, i really don't know about this ! Thanks for the info Richard. So i will try to imagine, despite turning MXP an overnight flight both w
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