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Virgin In Talks With Boeing/Airbus On New Aircraft  
User currently offlinePilot21 From Ireland, joined Oct 1999, 1384 posts, RR: 2
Posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 13572 times:

Well despite another topic on here stating that VS has delayed delivery of the remaining A346's over the next few yrs, SRB has now just thrown that story to the wind and says VS is talking to both Airbus and Boeing about ordering new aircraft to make up for delays in the A380!!
He says 'it is possible' VS will order new aircraft, and an announcement will be made in the next 3 to 4 weeks. SRB says they are talking to Boeing and Airbus.

Sorry folks, but VS and BMI seem to be a good partnerships given the confusing statements being thrown around by VS lately. Delayed A340 and A380 deliveries, so they don't grow too quickly, but let's order something completely different!!!


Aircraft I've flown: A300/A310/A320/A321/A330/A340/B727/B732/B733/B734/B735/B738/B741/B742/B744/DC10/MD80/IL62/Bae146/AR
59 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineKappel From Suriname, joined Jul 2005, 3533 posts, RR: 17
Reply 1, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 13541 times:

Indeed a very strange development.

Quoting Pilot21 (Thread starter):
Sorry folks, but VS and BMI seem to be a good partnerships given the confusing statements being thrown around by VS lately. Delayed A340 and A380 deliveries, so they don't grow too quickly, but let's order something completely different!!!

Not to mention all those 777/a330/a350 rumours of the last year!!



L1011,733,734,73G,738,743,744,752,763,772,77W,DC855,DC863,DC930,DC950,MD11,MD88,306,319,320,321,343,346,ARJ85,CR7,E195
User currently offlineScouseflyer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2006, 3390 posts, RR: 9
Reply 2, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 13499 times:

To bridge the gap to the A380, they'll want something sharpish - I'm guessing A330 or T7 (or 767 for a real curve ball!)

User currently offlineManni From South Korea, joined Nov 2001, 4221 posts, RR: 22
Reply 3, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 13483 times:

Quoting Pilot21 (Thread starter):
VS is talking to both Airbus and Boeing about ordering new aircraft to make up for delays in the A380!!

They've asked Airbus to postpone the delivery of the A380 and reportedly have also delayed the delivery of 6 A346s. Why would they need any new aircraft if they're delaying the deliveries of the ones they've ordered?
Perhaps it is Virgin Blue Mr. Branson is talking about?



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User currently offlineOsiris30 From Barbados, joined Sep 2006, 3192 posts, RR: 25
Reply 4, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 13477 times:

Quoting Kappel (Reply 1):
Indeed a very strange development.

I don't think it's all that strange. Some of us have been saying all along that Virgin simply doesn't WANT the 340s or 380s because there are better/cheaper/smaller aircraft that fit with what they want to do.

They are still expecting growth, just not enough to fill a 380. The 340s are, objectively, sub-optimal aircraft for just about every profile they fly. There are better things on the market and better things coming to market. If VS could get away with differing them and later coverting to something else I don't see that as surprising at all.



I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
User currently offlineOsiris30 From Barbados, joined Sep 2006, 3192 posts, RR: 25
Reply 5, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 13458 times:

Quoting Manni (Reply 3):
Why would they need any new aircraft if they're delaying the deliveries of the ones they've ordered?

Because compared to a 777, 787 or 350 the 346 is a waste of time and they don't want them. Or perhaps the 346 is bigger than they want now and they want something 787 sized instead.



I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
User currently offlinePilot21 From Ireland, joined Oct 1999, 1384 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 13455 times:

Quoting Manni (Reply 3):
Why would they need any new aircraft if they're delaying the deliveries of the ones they've ordered?
Perhaps it is Virgin Blue Mr. Branson is talking about?

Exactly my point in the original thread starter Manni, I've no idea why they want something different, but it is definitely VS SRB is talking about. Time will tell, but this is the strangest news I've heard from VS, given the previous stories about the A346 and A380.



Aircraft I've flown: A300/A310/A320/A321/A330/A340/B727/B732/B733/B734/B735/B738/B741/B742/B744/DC10/MD80/IL62/Bae146/AR
User currently offlineManni From South Korea, joined Nov 2001, 4221 posts, RR: 22
Reply 7, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 13349 times:

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 5):
Because compared to a 777, 787 or 350 the 346 is a waste of time and they don't want them.

Virgin Atlantic has ordered the A346 not once but twice, and not just a few of them. IMO you GUESSED wrong.

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 5):
Or perhaps the 346 is bigger than they want now and they want something 787 sized instead.

That they might want something smaller sounds more plausible.

Quoting Pilot21 (Reply 6):
Time will tell, but this is the strangest news I've heard from VS, given the previous stories about the A346 and A380.

Are the A346 rumours (delivery postponed) confirmed by VS?



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User currently offlineOsiris30 From Barbados, joined Sep 2006, 3192 posts, RR: 25
Reply 8, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 13291 times:

Quoting Manni (Reply 7):
Virgin Atlantic has ordered the A346 not once but twice, and not just a few of them. IMO you GUESSED wrong.

Last time they ordered the 346 there was no 350 coming. Things change Manni. It looks like they may have changed with respect to VS wanting the 346.

Quoting Manni (Reply 7):
That they might want something smaller sounds more plausible.

One of many possibilities. Another is that they are going to cancel those 346 AND 380s and roll it into deposits for 350s instead. Lots of ways this could go, but the 350 is superior to the 346 for most of what VS does IMHO.



I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
User currently offlineKappel From Suriname, joined Jul 2005, 3533 posts, RR: 17
Reply 9, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 13269 times:

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 8):
One of many possibilities. Another is that they are going to cancel those 346 AND 380s and roll it into deposits for 350s instead. Lots of ways this could go, but the 350 is superior to the 346 for most of what VS does IMHO.

Of course it's superior. But it's also a lon wait (8 years?). That makes it odd



L1011,733,734,73G,738,743,744,752,763,772,77W,DC855,DC863,DC930,DC950,MD11,MD88,306,319,320,321,343,346,ARJ85,CR7,E195
User currently offlineNYC777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 5756 posts, RR: 47
Reply 10, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 13222 times:

I think they get 77W/748I and possibly the 787s (-9 and -10 models).


That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
User currently offlineOsiris30 From Barbados, joined Sep 2006, 3192 posts, RR: 25
Reply 11, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 13205 times:

Quoting Kappel (Reply 9):
Of course it's superior. But it's also a lon wait (8 years?). That makes it odd

Why? Look at what Virgin has said (at least what I think they've said):

1) We are growing but not nearly at the rate we predicted
2) We are deferring the 346
3) We want to be "green" (SRB)

If the 350 is 8 years away and VS doesn't need a ton of extra capacity now, why not roll the orders over while they can. They can always lease aircraft in the mean time, rather than get stuck with a bunch of 346s that are going to be utterly worthless in 10 years on the resale market. Plus VS can rid themselves of a 380 order I don't think anyone *truly* believes they want.



I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
User currently offlineManni From South Korea, joined Nov 2001, 4221 posts, RR: 22
Reply 12, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 13181 times:

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 8):
Last time they ordered the 346 there was no 350 coming.

The A350 will not be available for many years to come, all A346s on order would long have been delivered by then.

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 8):
but the 350 is superior to the 346

Let's hope it is. Afterall, one of the A350XWB versions is supposed to replace the A346.

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 10):
I think they get 77W/748I and possibly the 787s (-9 and -10 models).

Why dont you include the A330 and A350? That way you have a 100% certainty they'll order atleast one of the aircraft you've mentioned...

Unless they order more A346s and A380s... wait  crazy 



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User currently offlineNYC777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 5756 posts, RR: 47
Reply 13, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 13109 times:

Quoting Manni (Reply 12):
Quoting NYC777 (Reply 10):
I think they get 77W/748I and possibly the 787s (-9 and -10 models).


Why dont you include the A330 and A350? That way you have a 100% certainty they'll order atleast one of the aircraft you've mentioned...

Uh huh, because I think Branson is sufficiently pissed at Airbus and the trust level VS has in Airbus delivering is sufficiently eroded that he would rather go with Boeing. Don't forget that SQ owns 49% of VS so I think what they have to say carries some weight.



That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30977 posts, RR: 86
Reply 14, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 13056 times:
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An interim A330 lease tied into a large A350XWB order (with subsequent cancellation of the A346 and A388 order) could be a good fit for SRB.

I can't see the 777 entering the fleet. That ship has sailed, just as it has for QF and LH.

The 787 is a possibility, but only if SRB feels Airbus can't deliver the A350XWB in a reasonable time-frame and he doesn't need high-end (A346 level) capacity anymore. Both of which strike me as unlikely.


User currently offlineKappel From Suriname, joined Jul 2005, 3533 posts, RR: 17
Reply 15, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 13054 times:

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 11):
If the 350 is 8 years away and VS doesn't need a ton of extra capacity now, why not roll the orders over while they can. They can always lease aircraft in the mean time, rather than get stuck with a bunch of 346s that are going to be utterly worthless in 10 years on the resale market. Plus VS can rid themselves of a 380 order I don't think anyone *truly* believes they want.

I don't know if the a346 will we utterly wothless in 10 years time. That depends on too many factors to say anything about that. Fact is indeed that with deferring the a346 and a380 for 6 years, they won't be receiving any aircraft in those years. That's not limiting growth, that's stopping growth. Anything smaller (a332/b777?) they order now won't be available for at least 2 years IIRC.

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 11):
We want to be "green" (SRB)

The a380 can be seen as a 'green' aircraft. It moves more people at a time and uses less fuel(than a 744). Unless of course it is indeed too big, which means they made a huge miscalculation when they ordered it.



L1011,733,734,73G,738,743,744,752,763,772,77W,DC855,DC863,DC930,DC950,MD11,MD88,306,319,320,321,343,346,ARJ85,CR7,E195
User currently offlineMham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3642 posts, RR: 5
Reply 16, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 13038 times:

LONDON, March 2 (Reuters) - Richard Branson's Virgin Atlantic [VA.UL] expects to decide within a month whether it will acquire new Airbus or Boeing (BA.N: Quote, Profile , Research) planes to help it deal with the delay in Airbus's A380 superjumbo.

Branson told Bloomberg Television in an interview.

"We are going to need quite a few planes, but we will only get planes if we can reduce the carbon output of them quite dramatically," he added.


User currently offlineManni From South Korea, joined Nov 2001, 4221 posts, RR: 22
Reply 17, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 13015 times:

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 13):
Uh huh, because I think Branson is sufficiently pissed at Airbus and the trust level VS has in Airbus delivering is sufficiently eroded that he would rather go with Boeing.

OK. And why would Mr. Branson be pissed at Airbus? Because Airbus agreed to postpone the delivery of the A380? Because Airbus, reportedly, agreed to postpone the delivery of the A346. VS ordered more aircraft then they could swallow, judging by all the aircraft they are postponing. If anything, Mr. Branson is likely be very pleased with Airbus' understanding.

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 13):
Don't forget that SQ owns 49% of VS so I think what they have to say carries some weight.

And what are they saying NYC777? That they have that much trust in Airbus, after all the A380 delays, that they've ordered another 9 A380s. That they, after rejecting the A333 twice, have finally agreed to lease 19 of these beauties.

There's no indication whatsoever that either one of the CEO's of these airlines are pissed at Airbus.



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User currently offlineColumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7063 posts, RR: 4
Reply 18, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 12958 times:

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 13):
Uh huh, because I think Branson is sufficiently pissed at Airbus and the trust level VS has in Airbus delivering is sufficiently eroded that he would rather go with Boeing. Don't forget that SQ owns 49% of VS so I think what they have to say carries some weight.

The SQ argument is not very good if you want to proof that the order will go to Boeing.
SQ just has said that they consider the 747 an outdated aircraft and the future is the A380. They also have 330s on order and signed letter of intent for 20 A350-900s.
I believe VS will change its order for A340-600s into an order for A330s and sign for A350 at a later date.
The A330 offers the advantage commonality with their existing A343 and A346 fleet plus VS already has placed deposits with Airbus.
I can see them ordering the 747-8I if they decide that
a) they have a gap between the A346 and the A380 (like Lufthansa)
b) the A380 is too big for their needs and the 747-8I offers the right size for them.



It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlineCX747 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 4454 posts, RR: 5
Reply 19, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 12936 times:

There has been alot of talk around the forums and chat sites regarding VS's decision to spread out their A340-600 orders. At last glance, VS was slowing down their growth for unstated reasons. This decision flies directly in the face of that. IF VS needs additional lift over the next 2-3 years and doesn't want the A340-600, then there are only a few choices. Those choices would be the 330, 767, 777 and 747. Each platform would represent different needs by VS. If they wanted less capacity and better economics, the 330/767/777 route would be the way to go. I am throwing the 767 in there, because Boeing could potentially offer the 767 or 777 as an interim lift solution until the 787 or production slots for the 777-300ER became available. An order for the 747-8 would surely be a blow to the A380 program and would show that VS is not counting the proverbial A380 egg before it hatches. VS could replace their entire 747-400 fleet with 747-8s and order additional airframes for growth instead of A380s. In this case, I think the A330 stands the best chance. Airbus would be more than willing to sell A330s at a discounted rate to VS in place of A340-600s or in lieu of continueing A380 delays.


"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
User currently offlineJAAlbert From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1600 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 12734 times:

Does VS have any 330s in its fleet at present?

If VS has rejected the 340 and 380 (at least in the near term), but needs interim lift capacity, then its not going to be ordering the 350xwb in the 3 to 4 week time frame mentioned by Branson. The plane won't be ready for another 8yrs (?) and I have not heard anyone express confidence that Airbus' predictions as to economics "green" benefits are accurate given the size of the plane airbus has planned. If interim lift capacity using planes that are flying now -- or reasonably like to be flying within the next three years -- is the goal, I don't see VS ordering the 350 within the next month.

So the 330 is the only airbus plane available to VS.

The 767 and 777 are the only two Boeings presently available. If it waits a bit 787 and 748 should be available within 5yrs. VS with the 767? Doubtful. The 330 shares commonality but is it big enough? That leaves a 777/748 order w/ potential 787 follow on.

My guess -- 330 and 748.


User currently offlineIndio66 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 475 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 12686 times:

What are the chances of VS trying a luxury (upperclass and prem econ) non-stop (or tech stop only west bound) to SYD with a couple of 777LRs??

User currently offlineScouseflyer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2006, 3390 posts, RR: 9
Reply 22, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 12625 times:

Hmmm I can't find anything anywhere about this - do we have a news source for the reports?

Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 20):
My guess -- 330 and 748.

Good Analysis, I'd agree with your points - I'd only say that it may be 330 or 748 rather than both

Quoting Indio66 (Reply 21):
What are the chances of VS trying a luxury (upperclass and prem econ) non-stop (or tech stop only west bound) to SYD with a couple of 777LRs??

Not likely - it's a A.Net wet dream that one I'm afraid!


User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20632 posts, RR: 62
Reply 23, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 12549 times:

It appears the initial story was incorrect, and the decision refers to Virgin Blue, not Virgin Atlantic:

Quoting http://today.reuters.com/news/articlebusiness.aspx?type=AIRLIN&storyid=2007-03-02T163615Z_01_L02314817_RTRIDST_0_VIRGINATLANTIC-AIRBUS-CORRECTED-OFFICIAL.XML:

(Corrects to Virgin Blue from Virgin Atlantic in first paragraph following company clarification of Branson's remarks; deletes reference to Airbus A380 in first paragraph)



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineCX747 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 4454 posts, RR: 5
Reply 24, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 12514 times:

The correction doesn't make any sense. Virgin Blue doesn't have any A380s on order, so there is no gap to fill! Also, Virgin Blue just ordered 777-300ERs, 737-800s and E-190s within the last 2-3 weeks. Something is not right here. It seems to me that Richard spoke to quickly etc and is now doing the 1-2-3 backtrack.


"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
25 Ikramerica : Last years, "insiders" were talking of VS planning on A330s to supplement their A340 fleet as a conversion of existing A340 orders, allowing the A340
26 Scouseflyer : I think that someone's got two things confused - Virgin Blue is going to order some planes (and they haven't signed for the T7s yet it just looks like
27 AeroWesty : Re-read it. The correction removes any reference to a "gap" or A380s when referring to Virgin Blue's order.
28 CX747 : "deletes reference to Airbus A380 in first paragraph". I agree that it deletes any reference to the A380 in the first paragraph, but the A380 is menti
29 Ikramerica : That clears it up then.
30 Osiris30 : Maybe you should repost the article and suggest this thread gets locked. Everything everyone was talking about prior pretty much is totally irrelevant
31 Kaitak744 : Absolutely. Sir Richard Branson just realized....Why keep the old technology coming? Two options: 1. Airbus can see Virgin is really pissed at A380 d
32 JAAlbert : It could be that the article "may" have been discussing the two different airlines and, due to a journalist's poor drafting, the discussion became ju
33 Stitch : We know DJ was RFPing the 773ER and A346. If DJ had chosen the A346, might VS have tried to assign their slots to DJ? And now that DJ is (said to be)
34 WINGS : A340-600 performance? Virgin got what they ordered. If you having info that suggest the opposite please feel free to share it with us. Regards, Wings
35 Sevenforeseven : Lets get this straight. VS are slowing there expansion but thats exactly it SLOWING, not STOPPING. In my opinion the A330 is on its way until the A380
36 2wingtips : Very easy answer: VS like most other 345/346 carriers are less than thrilled with it's efficiency/performance/reliability. Which is why the recently
37 Post contains links BoeingFever777 : http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=adrb.Gzx8brs Virgin Atlantic spokesman Paul Charles said today that Branson was discussing pla
38 Post contains images Art : Would avoid being landed with more A346's. How about leasing A330's and securing A350XWB slots? If the A380 proved successful for other operators, th
39 Flysherwood : Maybe they don't want them and are waiting for an opportunity to cancel those particular aircraft.
40 N1786b : Well, if Branson talks like this about Virgin Blue's fleet needs, it kind of reinforces the complaints by some US carriers about Virgin America that
41 Glideslope : A view shared by many these days, and only getting worse. Airbus' largest problem next to poor engineering/management. IMO.
42 Post contains images Scbriml : Sounds pretty much like most of the threads on a.net! Based on what exactly? VS deferred delivery of their A380s, and the rumour (there's no firm evi
43 Post contains images Jacobin777 : Hi Wings.....I would say it had to do with the EIS problems VS had, but that was 1/2 decade ago.....from what I know, the A346's have been performing
44 JAL : I don't see Virgin Atlantic ordering from Boeing but anything can happen!
45 SCAT15F : I'm going to guess 787-9's for the mid range and A350-1000 for high capacity. With the 747-8I as a possibility, especially if Boeing can get the range
46 BAalltheway : This might be a stupid comment, but isn't VS's whole thing having a/c with 4 engines? I seem to recall them using having a/c with 4 engines as a marke
47 BoeingFever777 : Guess you can't see... causel they did! Virgin Atlantic Airways United Kingdom Europe 747-400 GE 20-Dec-1996 1 Virgin Atlantic Airways United Kingdom
48 C680 : I.E. Fuel effiency. Doesn't that mean B787?
49 EBJ1248650 : I'll add a question to your question: Has VS expressed dissatisfaction with the A340-600 or is this something a.netters merely suppose?
50 Osiris30 : Well some of us aren't saying they aren't satisified with the 346s they have, but merely they see the new aircraft coming into the market as better e
51 Adria : VS put an additional order for the A346 (but they had some problems at the beginning with the reliability) so there should be no problem and the diss
52 SSTsomeday : Because they still want to add lift but they no longer want those particular types? (340, 380...) Because of the 380 delay? Because of the poor econo
53 Post contains images Manni : That's an assumption, not more. VS, like that other big A346 operator LH, has placed follow on orders to their original order for A346s. They've anno
54 Manni : From the article, Virgin's order for six of Airbus superjumbo A380s was delayed in October after construction disruptions at the planemaker. The 555-
55 Post contains images FXramper : Where is the source to this thread stating VS is in talks with either company?
56 Post contains links BoeingFever777 : http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=adrb.Gzx8brs Virgin Atlantic spokesman Paul Charles said today that Branson was discussing pla
57 Post contains images FXramper : The thread starter said Virgin, not Virgin Blue...What the deuce? Hearsay.
58 Manni : From the article, I suppose that's the same with just about any other airline. If they're doing that on a day-to-day basis, we might aswell run a thre
59 Post contains images Kappel : That's why you are on my RU Jacobin. While I know about your devotion to the 777, you can still see the good sides to other aircraft. Anyway, while C
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