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UPS And Airbus....  
User currently offlineMd11sdf From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 83 posts, RR: 0
Posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 8031 times:

Hello A-Neters,
Here in Louisville (KSDF) there is obvious interest in the UPS fleet. With the 727's soon to be retired and there still being a need to serve smaller markets, I was wondering.... With a ton of UPS's money on hand from the deferred/cancelled orders, could Airbus offer UPS the A320F? The Union for the Pilots (IPA) would most likely insist on a conventional control column, instead of the side-stick. The A320 Freighter IS already something that is being developed.

It's a fair bet that EADS-Airbus does NOT want to refund their long held deposit money. How many million Dollars was it?
UPS has enough A300's and the A330-200, while a great aircraft will not happen. The 27 ship 767 order they recently announced killed off any chance it had. I have this fantasy of an A340-600F with cargo doors fore and aft of the wing...

The botton line is that SOMETHING will need to be done to resolve this situation. This being the home to UPS's massive WORLDPORT, I can say that there (for the most part) is a HUGE sigh of relief that the A380F is dead on arrival.

Terry


LOUISVILLE, where your camera may as well be a stinger misslie to the Airport Police.
48 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 1, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 7963 times:

Isn't UPS looking for 757s? Wouldn't that be a better 727 replacement than an A320?


"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offlineManni From South Korea, joined Nov 2001, 4221 posts, RR: 22
Reply 2, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 7863 times:

Quoting Md11sdf (Thread starter):
It's a fair bet that EADS-Airbus does NOT want to refund their long held deposit money. How many million Dollars was it?

We can only speculate what will happen with the deposits. As far as the size of the deposit is concerned, US$160 million would be a good guess.

Quoting Md11sdf (Thread starter):
I can say that there (for the most part) is a HUGE sigh of relief that the A380F is dead on arrival.

That's a funny thing to say. And why exactely is that? Did UPS' home airport already started investing in A380 airport modifications?



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User currently offlineKen4556 From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 169 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 7776 times:

UPS may not need anything smaller then the 757. UPS flies late in the evening with either a 757 or the A300 into our Airport here in Albany, GA, loads, and then departs. It arrives back in the early morning, unloads, and then heads out.

UPS has probably found it cheaper to operate bigger plans with a couple stops instead of having dedicated smaller planes to the smaller cities. Less plans and less crews probably equal a higher profit for UPS.


User currently offlineERAUgrad02 From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 1227 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 7762 times:

I'd assume if the wanted/needed something smaller they'd order the 737-700F. It's available now. a frieghter a320 is not. but i dought they'd get it. even thought it goes good in between the atr42/72 and 757-200F.


Desmond MacRae in ILM
User currently offlineRiddle274 From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 75 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 7680 times:

Just out of curiosity, does anyone know exactly how many of each aircraft type are currently serving in the UPS fleet? I couldn't find any data online for the past few years. Additionally, does UPS utilize any feeders (they must) and if so, who?

User currently offlineBoeingFever777 From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 409 posts, RR: 53
Reply 6, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 7618 times:

Quoting Riddle274 (Reply 5):
does anyone know exactly how many of each aircraft type are currently serving in the UPS fleet?

A300 = 53
747 = 10
757 = 75
767 = 32
MD-11 = 33

On orders:

767 = 22
744F = 10

What is the point to this post? It is very clear that 5X will most likely get there deposits back... after talks with A in Toulouse about they can walk away any time if A delays the program. They DID! 10yrs!

5X will now look at 748F/777F.



Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre.
User currently offlineManni From South Korea, joined Nov 2001, 4221 posts, RR: 22
Reply 7, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 7565 times:

Quoting BoeingFever777 (Reply 6):
It is very clear that 5X will most likely get there deposits back... after talks with A in Toulouse about they can walk away any time if A delays the program.

What has been agreed between Airbus and UPS is not been made public. You raised one possibility.

Airbus and UPS might have agreed that UPS can cancel the contract, without paying a penalty, if Airbus further delays the aircraft. Under normal circumstances (no delay) an additional penalty, on top of losing the deposits might have been agreed to pay to cancel the contract. That could be another possibility.

Quoting BoeingFever777 (Reply 6):
On orders:

767 = 22
744F = 10

That's 27 763F's.



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User currently offlineFXramper From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 7365 posts, RR: 85
Reply 8, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 7514 times:
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Quoting Md11sdf (Thread starter):
could Airbus offer UPS the A320F

Sure they could. 5X isn't interested in short-haul a/c though.

They are in currently negotiations with Boeing to replace their A380 order.

Look for an official announcement in 4-6 weeks.


User currently offlineBoomBoom From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 7472 times:

Quoting Manni (Reply 7):
Airbus and UPS might have agreed that UPS can cancel the contract, without paying a penalty, if Airbus further delays the aircraft. Under normal circumstances (no delay) an additional penalty, on top of losing the deposits might have been agreed to pay to cancel the contract. That could be another possibility.

I have read this many times, but can't understand what is is your trying to say.


User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 7002 posts, RR: 63
Reply 10, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 7458 times:

Quoting Md11sdf (Thread starter):
The Union for the Pilots (IPA) would most likely insist on a conventional control column, instead of the side-stick.

They can "insist" all they like but I doubt if they'd get it!

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 1):
Isn't UPS looking for 757s? Wouldn't that be a better 727 replacement than an A320?

Not for the retiring and already retired 727-100s Though who's to say they'd want the same capacity in new planes?


User currently offlineBoeingFever777 From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 409 posts, RR: 53
Reply 11, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 7414 times:

Quoting Manni (Reply 7):
That's 27 763F's.

 Big grin

Long day at the office... thanks Manni!



Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre.
User currently offlineMd11sdf From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 83 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 7335 times:

I have been trolling around the Pilots web-blogs for the past several years and many have called the A380 a PIG and were not looking foreward to having it here. I wonder if the monster K-Loaders needed for the upper deck have even been DESIGNED? Runway 17R/35L is being extended, but I'm not sure if the taxiways are being widened The Airport Authority states that UPS needed the extra length even without the A380. This will allow the 747's to takeoff with a heavier fuel load.

As to feeders, you can go to FlightAware (arrival airport LOUISVILLE, KY) and see them after 11:00PM.
There are a mix of Shorts 330's/360's and ATR42's. I can't remember the names of the operators. No feeders are used on the "day-side", which is mostly a 2nd Day Air operation. There are many more flights at night.

I do not work for UPS, although I was on the ramps at the hub 1988-90. I drive tractor-trailers for a company who's warehouse is less than 1/2 mile from the end of runway 35L/ 17R. If you look up inflight photos of SDF, you can see
that the UPS hub complex is located on the south side of the airport, between the runways. You will also see the totally bizarre location of our new ATC tower. I have never understood it... They have a better view of the Ford plant (where the Explorers are built) than of the airport!! Anyway, the bottom line of my original post was about the UPS deposit money.
Maybe by summertime, we will know what will happen.... Any Brown-Tail guys out there?

Terry



LOUISVILLE, where your camera may as well be a stinger misslie to the Airport Police.
User currently offlineBaron95 From United States of America, joined May 2006, 1335 posts, RR: 8
Reply 13, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 7298 times:

Quoting Md11sdf (Thread starter):
The botton line is that SOMETHING will need to be done to resolve this situation.

Could you please explain what you are talking about? I read yout OP and other posts and I still don't get what "situation" needs to be fixed. What situation exists that SOMETHING needs to be done about?

UPS got the same lift capacity on the 27 767s as they previously had on order with the A380F. Ranges are in the same ballpark. So what is it that you are concerned about?



Killer Fleet: E190, 737-900ER, 777-300ER
User currently offlineManni From South Korea, joined Nov 2001, 4221 posts, RR: 22
Reply 14, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 7279 times:

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 9):
I have read this many times, but can't understand what is is your trying to say.

When signing up for aircraft Airbus requires a deposit from the customer. This deposit is the first payment of the total sum that needs to be payed. The rest of the sum will be payed according the agreement between both parties, a cancellation fee and compensation for delays will also be included in the agreement. There's no indication whatsoever that the deposit equals the cancellation fee.

What I'm saying is that one of the possible scenarion could be that the deposit might be lossed but that due to the various delays of the A380, UPS can now cancel the order without paying a cancellation fee (if that's what has been agreed). While under normal circumstances they would not only loose their deposits but might have been obliged to also pay a cancellation fee.

Having said that, I'd be very surprised if UPS would let a deposit of US$160 million go. Perhaps they've negotiated a more favorable contract or someone else is prepared to chip in, by offering an additional discount on a new order...



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User currently offlineSDF21 From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 10 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 7195 times:

It is very unlikely that UPS will order any Airbus aircraft any time soon. Since we mainly move packages the company mainly only uses structured ulds. The A332F would only have a marginal increase (1 position) of space over 763F, and with the much larger wing span the A332F could not be parked "on wing" at SDF. It is much more likely that UPS will order 748F or 744 converted freighters.

User currently offlineHB88 From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2005, 817 posts, RR: 31
Reply 16, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 5906 times:

Quoting Md11sdf (Reply 12):
I have been trolling around the Pilots web-blogs for the past several years and many have called the A380 a PIG and were not looking foreward to having it here.

Given that none of them would have flown the 380F yet (unless any Fedex or UPS pilots had flown a pax version in TLS), why would they call the A380F a PIG with negligible knowledge of the aircraft and the fact that it hadn't been built in the freight variant yet?

Other than the traditional antipathy toward the 380 what was this opinion based on?


User currently offlineAirFrnt From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 2829 posts, RR: 42
Reply 17, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 5766 times:

Quoting Manni (Reply 14):
What I'm saying is that one of the possible scenarion could be that the deposit might be lossed but that due to the various delays of the A380, UPS can now cancel the order without paying a cancellation fee (if that's what has been agreed). While under normal circumstances they would not only loose their deposits but might have been obliged to also pay a cancellation fee.

According to Arbus in October, all of the orders with the exception of some new options exercises were in the cancellation zone, and up to max damage caps. That plus reports on how lax the original contracts were in terms of cancellation clauses makes it pretty obvious that UPS and Fedex are only going to be out the money that they were investing trying to get their hubs "A380 ready"


User currently offlineGo3Team From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 3267 posts, RR: 16
Reply 18, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 5625 times:

Quoting BoeingFever777 (Reply 6):

A300 = 53
747 = 10
757 = 75
767 = 32
MD-11 = 33

No more DC8s?  Sad



Yay Pudding!
User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12181 posts, RR: 51
Reply 19, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 5536 times:

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 1):
Isn't UPS looking for 757s? Wouldn't that be a better 727 replacement than an A320?

No, it is FedEx looking for B-757-200CFs.

Quoting Md11sdf (Thread starter):
I have this fantasy of an A340-600F with cargo doors fore and aft of the wing...

Why would anyone, including UPS be interested in an A-340-600F? There is no development in any version of the A-340 into an "F" version, and I doubt there ever will be. It would compete directly with Airbus's A-330-200F, and Boeing already has the B-777-200LRF in the works, too.

Quoting Md11sdf (Thread starter):
It's a fair bet that EADS-Airbus does NOT want to refund their long held deposit money.

I think you are right.

Quoting ERAUgrad02 (Reply 4):
I'd assume if the wanted/needed something smaller they'd order the 737-700F. It's available now. a frieghter a320 is not.

I doubt that UPS would order a B-737-700F/-800F. They can pick up plenty of used B-737-300/-400 and have them converted into CFs.

Quoting Manni (Reply 7):
Quoting BoeingFever777 (Reply 6):
On orders:

767 = 22
744F = 10

That's 27 763F's.

Correct, and the B-747-400F order is for 8 airplanes, not 10.

Quoting BoeingFever777 (Reply 6):
5X will now look at 748F/777F

Yes, But, I doubt they will look closely at the B-777-200LRF, without canceling some of the B-767-300ERFs. But, I think the B-747-800F is a safe bet.

Quoting BoeingFever777 (Reply 6):
A300 = 53
747 = 10
757 = 75
767 = 32
MD-11 = 33

What happened to the DC-8-71F/-73F and the B-727-100CFs? Are they all gone from the current UPS fleet already?

Quoting Manni (Reply 14):
What I'm saying is that one of the possible scenarion could be that the deposit might be lossed but that due to the various delays of the A380, UPS can now cancel the order without paying a cancellation fee (if that's what has been agreed). While under normal circumstances they would not only loose their deposits but might have been obliged to also pay a cancellation fee.

Having said that, I'd be very surprised if UPS would let a deposit of US$160 million go. Perhaps they've negotiated a more favorable contract or someone else is prepared to chip in, by offering an additional discount on a new order...

You can bet that if Airbus refuses to return the A-380-800F deposits to UPS, this will end up in the US Federal Court in Louisville. If Airbus looses that suit, they not only have to repay the deposits, but a court ordered penilty, and the legal costs for UPS.

Quoting HB88 (Reply 16):
Given that none of them would have flown the 380F yet (unless any Fedex or UPS pilots had flown a pax version in TLS), why would they call the A380F a PIG with negligible knowledge of the aircraft and the fact that it hadn't been built in the freight variant yet?

Since UPS WAS an A-380 customer, I'll bet they were receiving many more updates on flight testing than we on a.net were. They were probibly also getting updates from the FAA and JAA.


User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 20, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 5507 times:

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 19):
You can bet that if Airbus refuses to return the A-380-800F deposits to UPS, this will end up in the US Federal Court in Louisville. If Airbus looses that suit, they not only have to repay the deposits, but a court ordered penilty, and the legal costs for UPS.

Not to mention "poisioning the well" for a very long time.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 19):
No, it is FedEx looking for B-757-200CFs.

I was aware of FEDEX, but I thought I had read that UPS was looking as well. Oh well, the problem with aging....



"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12181 posts, RR: 51
Reply 21, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 5460 times:

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 20):
I was aware of FEDEX, but I thought I had read that UPS was looking as well. Oh well, the problem with aging....

I am in that same age group, my friend. Now, what were we talking about?  Confused


User currently offlineSEPilot From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 7144 posts, RR: 46
Reply 22, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 5329 times:

My take on the whole situation: 5X ordered a bunch of A306F's and then decided they didn't want them. Airbus sold them on the A380F's and agreed to transfer the deposits, basically with no refund clause. Airbus stubs its toes bigtime with the A380, and 5X is unhappy and wants to bail. Airbus says if you do you lose your money. This standoff continues until a few weeks ago when Airbus and 5X reach an agreement that the order will stay on the books but be deferred 10 years. Airbus realizes the futility of building a plane for which they have no customers and, desperately needing the resources for other projects decides to suspend development on the freighter. UPS cries Bingo! due to the clause in the previous agreement about any further delay in the A380F and gets their deposits back. Airbus undoubtedly realized when they suspended the A380F they would lose 5X's money which they were desperately trying to hold onto but the cost of doing so was encroaching on resolving the A380 problems and getting the A350 program off the ground, and therefore they threw in the towel.


The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
User currently offlineThreepoint From Canada, joined Oct 2005, 2188 posts, RR: 9
Reply 23, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 5208 times:

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 22):
My take on the whole situation:

Thanks SEPilot, for summing this up for a latecomer to this story. It appears the UPS has either ordered some new freighters to replace the lift offered by the 380 (those 27 763's) or is currently in negotiations for a new order (747F, 777F, etc).
Am I getting this straight?



The nice thing about a mistake is the pleasure it gives others.
User currently offlineJustloveplanes From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 1065 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 5091 times:

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 22):
My take on the whole situation: 5X ordered a bunch of A306F's and then decided they didn't want them. Airbus sold them on the A380F's and agreed to transfer the deposits, basically with no refund clause. Airbus stubs its toes bigtime with the A380, and 5X is unhappy and wants to bail. Airbus says if you do you lose your money. This standoff continues until a few weeks ago when Airbus and 5X reach an agreement that the order will stay on the books but be deferred 10 years. Airbus realizes the futility of building a plane for which they have no customers and, desperately needing the resources for other projects decides to suspend development on the freighter. UPS cries Bingo! due to the clause in the previous agreement about any further delay in the A380F and gets their deposits back. Airbus undoubtedly realized when they suspended the A380F they would lose 5X's money which they were desperately trying to hold onto but the cost of doing so was encroaching on resolving the A380 problems and getting the A350 program off the ground, and therefore they threw in the towel

From the UPS press release, I think they should be taken at their word. They really sounded like they would wait until 2012 to get the planes, but Airbus has put the 380F at the bottom of the stack. There is no prediction to when they will get the planes. It looks like A and UPS were trying to work things out and the situation got the better of the deal.

UPS will get their deposits back without a fight and A will be gentlemen about the whole thing. Can't imagine A insisting on a A300 order now or anything else having had to retrace on TWO programs with UPS. My two cents.


25 2H4 : Why? 2H4
26 SSTsomeday : What is that about? Do the pilots in that union have a strong point of view or contract point in this regard? Is it not an easy thing to adjust to? I
27 2H4 : Better yet, is there evidence over which is easier or safer to manipulate? I've yet to see any... 2H4
28 HB88 : .... That's precisely my point. All of the flight-test results released internally within Airbus and externally with customers have certainly not show
29 Asturias : Airbus has a written contract with UPS. There is no way UPS can sue. Airbus will honor any written contract with UPS, of course. UPS had ordered the
30 SkepticAll : A cargo version of an A340-600F? Yes.........and a fantasy it surely will remain!
31 Dc10rules : I think I remember reading a thread about whether or not the 787 would be offered with a choice of side stick or yoke. I seem to remember people a lo
32 CF188A : try and keep this short. Last time i checked there were not enough 757s circulating to fill the 727 slot for both UPS / FedEx. So without verbal diarr
33 Scottieprecord : 5X fleet according to 2007 Aviation Week Source Book: 727-100F......... 31 747-100SF....... 7 747-200F......... 4 757-200PF....... 75 767-300ERF.....
34 KC135TopBoom : I doubt Airbus will do that. They want to close the A-300/A-310 production line in a few more months. Even though Power 8 was not the original reason
35 Philly Phlyer : I do not follow your first two sentences since most civil lawsuits are due to some form of "breach of contract." As such, if Airbus is contractually
36 Pygmalion : The 757 line no longer exists. The 737NG and the 737MMA took over the space. All the tooling is scrapped.
37 CF188A : they still have 747 and 767 backlogs? I know there were a few cargo orders but arent airlines trying to get rid of their 747s now ?
38 Post contains links BoomBoom : Canceled Airbus Deal Won't Hurt UPS Growth Plans http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-...0302-712778.html?mod=moj_companies
39 B777fan : In a fly by wire aircraft, the type of input device, stick or yoke, is irrelevant as far as transmitting commands to the controls. So it is very poss
40 Post contains links TeamAmerica : UPS is looking to Boeing... From the Wall Street Journal Online: UPS's Canceled Order Isn't All Bad for Airbus Two notable quotes... Re: Cancelling th
41 BoeingFever777 : I think you mean a conversion.
42 Manni : Despite all this TG would have lost US$97 million in deposits if they had cancelled their order. IF that's what has been agreed between both parties
43 KC135TopBoom : Was the B-757 tooloing scrapped already? I believe Boeing has a backlog of about 40 B-767s, 10 B-747-400s, and about 80 B-747-800s. Yes, I did mean c
44 SEPilot : A lawyer friend of mine once said that any idiot with a typewriter can start a lawsuit. Any contract can venture into unforseen territory, and that i
45 B777ER : Agreed. I imagine we will be reading about UPS's 748 order. Nice summation. And this does not include the Air Force 767 order possiblity.
46 Post contains images Boeingfever777 : UPS U.S.A. North America 747-400F GE 16-Aug-2005 8 oops... haha! Thanks KC135.
47 Post contains images Brendows : The 767 backlog has actually grown to 65 or 66 now! The 744 backlog is at about 35-37 IIRC.
48 KC135TopBoom : About 100 airplane backlog for the B-747-400 and B-767? That is better than I thought, and that does not include a possible USAF order for up to 179
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