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EU Ban On All But 7 PIA Aircraft, Plans To Lease  
User currently offlineLegoguy From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2006, 3313 posts, RR: 39
Posted (7 years 6 months 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 9342 times:

I am unaware if this has been posted already so if a thread exsists this thread may be deleted by a moderator.

The European Union on Monday banned almost the entire Pakistan International Airlines' (PIA) fleet from flying to the 27-nation bloc, and lifted restrictions on two other carriers that had previously been on the EU's “blacklist”.

http://www.dawn.com.pk/2007/03/06/top17.htm

Pakistan International Airline (PIA) will acquire aircraft on wet lease to support its operation in the 27-member European bloc which has been badly hampered after the European Union slapped a ban on all but seven Boeing 777 aircraft for the airline’s failure to meet safety standards.

http://www.dawn.com/2007/03/07/top10.htm

Regards,
Dave


Can you say 'Beer Can' without sounding like a Jamaican saying 'Bacon'?
55 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineBuyantUkhaa From Mongolia, joined May 2004, 2899 posts, RR: 3
Reply 1, posted (7 years 6 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 9258 times:

Quoting Legoguy (Thread starter):
I am unaware if this has been posted already

Well there was a big thread on this, but it got long - and slightly "uninformative", so I'm glad you started this one up.

The second point you mention is new. Let's discuss it here, and I'm glad you chose a neutral title...

Any idea where they would be able to wet-lease planes at presumably short notice?



I scratch my head, therefore I am.
User currently offlineNA From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10745 posts, RR: 9
Reply 2, posted (7 years 6 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 9196 times:

How long until the 777s will be added to the blacklist?

User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26525 posts, RR: 75
Reply 3, posted (7 years 6 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 9193 times:

This is so absolutely ridiculous. When was the last time a PIA long haul aircraft crashed? When was the last time a terrorist blew one up or used one in an act of terrorism? So ridiculous


Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineA3 From Greece, joined Oct 2006, 262 posts, RR: 8
Reply 4, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 9059 times:

Quoting N1120A (Reply 3):
When was the last time a PIA long haul aircraft crashed? When was the last time a terrorist blew one up or used one in an act of terrorism?

Date: 17 DEC 2000
Type: Boeing 747
Operator: Pakistan International Airlines - PIA
Passenger with false passport grabbed a butter knife and a fire extinguisher during a routine travel document check during stopover at Dubai. He locked himself in the cockpit and was later overpowered by security officers.

----------------------------------------------------------------
Date: 28 SEP 1992
Time: 14:30
Type: Airbus A.300B4-203
Operator: Pakistan International Airlines - PIA
PIA Flight 268 departed Karachi at 11:13 for a flight to Kathmandu. The en route portion of the flight was uneventful and the aircraft was cleared for a Sierra approach to Kathmandu runway 02. The crew were instructed to maintain 11500 feet and report at 16DME (16 miles from the VOR/DME beacon, which is located 0,6nm short of the runway). The Kathmandu approach is very difficult, since the airport is located in an oval-shaped valley surrounded by mountains as high as 9665 feet. Runway elevation is 4313 feet amsl. The next approach fixes for PIA268 were at 13 DME (at 10500 feet), 10 DME (at 9500 feet) and 8 DME (at 8200 feet). A few seconds after reporting 10 DME, the aircraft was descending through 8200 feet (the altitude for 8 DME!). The Airbus crashed into a steep cloud-covered hillside at approx. 7300 feet amsl., at 9,16 DME.



Don't spend your money on airlines that don't respect your business.
User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26525 posts, RR: 75
Reply 5, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 9021 times:

Quoting A3 (Reply 4):
Date: 17 DEC 2000
Type: Boeing 747
Operator: Pakistan International Airlines - PIA
Passenger with false passport grabbed a butter knife and a fire extinguisher during a routine travel document check during stopover at Dubai. He locked himself in the cockpit and was later overpowered by security officers.

1) Pre-9/11 2) Security overpowered him.

Quoting A3 (Reply 4):
Date: 28 SEP 1992
Time: 14:30
Type: Airbus A.300B4-203
Operator: Pakistan International Airlines - PIA
PIA Flight 268 departed Karachi at 11:13 for a flight to Kathmandu. The en route portion of the flight was uneventful and the aircraft was cleared for a Sierra approach to Kathmandu runway 02. The crew were instructed to maintain 11500 feet and report at 16DME (16 miles from the VOR/DME beacon, which is located 0,6nm short of the runway). The Kathmandu approach is very difficult, since the airport is located in an oval-shaped valley surrounded by mountains as high as 9665 feet. Runway elevation is 4313 feet amsl. The next approach fixes for PIA268 were at 13 DME (at 10500 feet), 10 DME (at 9500 feet) and 8 DME (at 8200 feet). A few seconds after reporting 10 DME, the aircraft was descending through 8200 feet (the altitude for 8 DME!). The Airbus crashed into a steep cloud-covered hillside at approx. 7300 feet amsl., at 9,16 DME.

Not a long haul aircraft, but still, that was 15 years ago.



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineA3 From Greece, joined Oct 2006, 262 posts, RR: 8
Reply 6, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 8992 times:

Date: 17 DEC 2000

Is only six years (plus some months) away...............



Don't spend your money on airlines that don't respect your business.
User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26525 posts, RR: 75
Reply 7, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 8990 times:

Quoting A3 (Reply 7):
Date: 17 DEC 2000

Is only six years (plus some months) away...............

Did you read how I seperated my responses?



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlinePanAm_DC10 From Australia, joined Aug 2000, 4164 posts, RR: 90
Reply 8, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 8974 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
COMMUNITY MANAGER

Pakistan Int'l May Get Airbus Jet To Avoid EU Ban by Jimyvr

The other thread was getting too long for some to download, please continue the discussion in this thread thank you.



Ask the impossible to achieve the best possible
User currently offlineA3 From Greece, joined Oct 2006, 262 posts, RR: 8
Reply 9, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 8945 times:

Quoting N1120A (Reply 3):
When was the last time a terrorist blew one up or used one in an act of terrorism?

Did you make any separation line pre or after 911???

Quoting N1120A (Reply 7):
Did you read how I seperated my responses?

It makes no difference if ti was pre or after 911, an incident is an incident no matter what date it was. I am sorry to say that , but pre 911 incidents can not be whipped out just because this date is a turning point for DOMESTIC US aviation safety.
For the rest of the world security was an issue especially after the Lokerby incident.



Don't spend your money on airlines that don't respect your business.
User currently offlineLTU330 From Germany, joined Jun 2005, 81 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 8839 times:

A3....

A British Airways 747-400 on a flight to or from Africa "pre 9-11" had a person enter the flight deck and attack the crew. The aircraft lost a lot of altitude during the struggle between crew members and the attacker. Then of course previously there was the 747 that almost landed on the hotel alongside the A4, and the 747 that fuel diverted to MAN after flying from LAX on 3 engines. Then there was the British Airtours 737 tragedy at MAN ( B.A subsidiary, and maintained by B.A ). So.....with these incidents, and plenty more, maybe British Airways should be banned from flying within the European Union ? Maybe also ban Air France ? They have had a few accidents over the years. My point is, I have worked on PIA aircraft and they are no worse than a lot of other airlines. Some of the aircraft look old and tired, but then so did aircraft I worked on from quite a few European and North American airlines.


User currently offlineA3 From Greece, joined Oct 2006, 262 posts, RR: 8
Reply 11, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 8698 times:

Dear LTU330 ,
Facts:
BA fleet , routes and mileage is multiple of PIA fleet , routes and mileage .
British Airways has 70 occupancies starting 1974 .
56 of them concern the Concord (which by the way stopped flying) .
Since 10-SEP-1976 with the HS-121 Trident, never again had any total loss.
If you are satisfied comparing BA safety record with PIA S.R you are free to do so but let me come to a different conclusion then yours.

Rgds
A3



Don't spend your money on airlines that don't respect your business.
User currently offlineFlyboy_se From Sweden, joined Feb 2000, 812 posts, RR: 5
Reply 12, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 8635 times:

Quoting N1120A (Reply 3):
This is so absolutely ridiculous. When was the last time a PIA long haul aircraft crashed? When was the last time a terrorist blew one up or used one in an act of terrorism? So ridiculous

This has nothing to do with terrorism.And would you prefer to see a PIA crash before they can ban their aircrafts??
I think that if there are any concerns about safety, then they have right to ban whatever company they want , and whatever planetype they want.Safety comes first.



I prefer to be crazy and happy rather than normal and bitter
User currently offlineDavid L From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 9524 posts, RR: 42
Reply 13, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 8604 times:

I'm still waiting to hear exactly why the ban is in place. Once we know why, we can decide how fair it is instead of just guessing. Maybe it's for good reason, maybe it's not. So far, all we've got is:

X: "The reasons for the ban are ridiculous!"
Y: "What are the reasons?"
X: "Um... I don't know."


User currently offlineA3 From Greece, joined Oct 2006, 262 posts, RR: 8
Reply 14, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 8575 times:

Quoting David L (Reply 13):
I'm still waiting to hear exactly why the ban is in place. Once we know why, we can decide how fair it is instead of just guessing. Maybe it's for good reason, maybe it's not. So far, all we've got is:

X: "The reasons for the ban are ridiculous!"
Y: "What are the reasons?"
X: "Um... I don't know."

Actually this is a continuation of the below mentioned highly provoking post :

Pakistan Int'l May Get Airbus Jet To Avoid EU Ban (http://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/3290074/)

Still after 166 posts there was no proof whatsoever that EU banned PIA just to sell Airbus to them !!!



Don't spend your money on airlines that don't respect your business.
User currently offlineDavid L From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 9524 posts, RR: 42
Reply 15, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 8536 times:

Quoting A3 (Reply 14):
Actually this is a continuation of the below mentioned highly provoking post :

Pakistan Int'l May Get Airbus Jet To Avoid EU Ban (http://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/3290074/)

I assume that wasn't directed at me since I took part in that.  Smile

Quoting A3 (Reply 14):
Still after 166 posts there was no proof whatsoever that EU banned PIA just to sell Airbus to them !!!

Nor any proof that the EU couldn't find a good reason but imposed the ban anyway.


User currently offlineA3 From Greece, joined Oct 2006, 262 posts, RR: 8
Reply 16, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 8490 times:

Quoting David L (Reply 15):
I assume that wasn't directed at me since I took part in that. Smile

Not specific direction  Wink

Quoting David L (Reply 15):
Nor any proof that the EU couldn't find a good reason but imposed the ban anyway.

The primary topic was "Pakistan Int'l May Get Airbus Jet To Avoid EU Ban".............

The implemented accusation is that EU did that in order Airbus sells more planes!!!
Please don't forget that he who makes the allegations have to prove them.
Not the accused.



Don't spend your money on airlines that don't respect your business.
User currently offlineCurious From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2005, 236 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 8441 times:

Will this be a temporary ban on the fleet until PIA carries out steps to reomove the ban? Surely PIA is not going to leave the aircraft as they are on the ground and without use?

User currently offlineA3 From Greece, joined Oct 2006, 262 posts, RR: 8
Reply 18, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 8408 times:

Quoting Curious (Reply 17):
Will this be a temporary ban on the fleet until PIA carries out steps to reomove the ban? Surely PIA is not going to leave the aircraft as they are on the ground and without use?

I guess that their baned aircraft will be making flights to countries that are not EU.



Don't spend your money on airlines that don't respect your business.
User currently offlineAsturias From Spain, joined Apr 2006, 2156 posts, RR: 16
Reply 19, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 8386 times:

Quoting N1120A (Reply 3):
This is so absolutely ridiculous. When was the last time a PIA long haul aircraft crashed? When was the last time a terrorist blew one up or used one in an act of terrorism? So ridiculous

Safety concerns are much better before disaster happens. It doesn't matter one squat when or if *anything* has *ever* happened to a PIA airliner.

PIA is not up to EASA standards and has to remidy this, if they wish to be taken off the black-list. I can't imagine you're going to claim to be a better authority on EU safety standards than EASA and that you're going to claim to have a better picture of the safety standards at PIA..

Playing out the emotional card always sits well with Americans when they're defending the impossible. Aviation safety is not run on emotion.

saludos

Asturias



Tonight we fly
User currently offlineOly720man From United Kingdom, joined May 2004, 6754 posts, RR: 11
Reply 20, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 8338 times:

Some routes going off line for a while.....


"According to reports, services to Frankfurt, Amsterdam, Milan and Chicago have been stopped altogether. Flights to destinations including Manchester, New York, Istanbul and Paris will continue, but with reduced frequency."

http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/7006669210



wheat and dairy can screw up your brain
User currently offlineSandroZRH From Switzerland, joined Feb 2007, 3428 posts, RR: 50
Reply 21, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 8298 times:

Quoting N1120A (Reply 3):
This is so absolutely ridiculous. When was the last time a PIA long haul aircraft crashed? When was the last time a terrorist blew one up or used one in an act of terrorism? So ridiculous

This is not about previous crashes, it's about the safety standard which PIA is in. A safety standard as in this case doesn't have anything to do with how many crashes an airline had or how recent their latest crash is, it's about in what condition their fleet is in. This is obviousely a precautionary measure by the EU and im glad they acted BEFORE an incident occurs, as usually, people tend to react after a disaster rather than before. Again, the EU judged PIA's safety standard by their failure to meet maintenance requirements, and not based on their crash record. So no, it's definately not ridiculous but rather your statement is. Oh and on a sidenote, terrorism doesnt have anything to do with this.


User currently offlineZRH From Switzerland, joined Nov 1999, 5568 posts, RR: 36
Reply 22, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 8264 times:

Quoting N1120A (Reply 3):
This is so absolutely ridiculous. When was the last time a PIA long haul aircraft crashed?

Nothing to ad, Sandro beat me for a few minutes, he is absolutely right.


User currently offlineCurious From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2005, 236 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 8263 times:

Curious as why the EU hasnt placed IR on a ban there aircraft specially 742 are nearly 30yrs old and with the Embargo on parts?

User currently offlineDavid L From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 9524 posts, RR: 42
Reply 24, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 8248 times:

Quoting A3 (Reply 16):
The primary topic was "Pakistan Int'l May Get Airbus Jet To Avoid EU Ban".............

You're right - I was just pre-empting such remarks that appeared in the previous thread.  Smile


25 Oly720man : Possibly because there aren't any safety issues with IR aircraft.
26 ZRH : Age of an aircraft is often no factor. Maintenance is important.
27 CHRISBA777ER : Their MX people are absolutely wonderful - miracle workers. Massive, massive respect to IR.
28 Post contains links BigOrange : There is no embargo on parts. The embargo does not apply to supplies for humanitarian or safety purposes. July 10 2006 was the last one. http://www.d
29 RoseFlyer : I for one support the EU taking measures to keep safety at the forefront. It is vitally important. It is good that the regulatory body is strict. I wo
30 Curious : Correct me if I am wrong but IR cannot obtain parts openly and if the issue about this not applying for humanitarian or embargo purposes they could a
31 Post contains images Legoguy : Whopps, I did search but nothing came up. What aircraft type could they possibly lease from the leasing company? One A310 is currently leased from th
32 EYFlyer88 : FRA/AMS/MXP completely stopped?? What about the passengers booked on those flights?
33 OA260 : Will be re routed or refunded as per normal procedures. I second that !!!! I still would like to know by way of a EU statement what was wrong with PK
34 Detroitflyer : ive got a question that has been on my mind since this whole thing started.... since PIA has not had any recent accidents or incidents with their flee
35 NA : "The EU's concerns focused on maintenance problems and old aircraft, specifically its Boeing 747s and Airbus 310s." A. Only the two 747-200s are old,
36 Legoguy : IIRC they recently had a Fokker F27 crash
37 Post contains links Khobar : "EU aviation sources said last month that experts had agreed that PIA should be added to the 27-nation bloc's blacklist because of its ageing fleet."
38 A3 : As you mention on several posts the reason is safety issues. The reason exists. Its a different story if you (and some others ) think that the reason
39 BuyantUkhaa : You mean that you don't have it. Which doesn't mean that it cannot exist. Please look up the definition of "proof". Someone disputing something does
40 David L : I'm saying we don't know the specific reason(s). Why do I need to prove anything? You're saying you know the specific reason - prove that. I'm saying
41 Post contains links BigOrange : From http://www.bsaexport.com/aecu/aecu-1999-11.php The Clinton Administration has approved a license to allow Boeing, through a European intermediar
42 Post contains links Khobar : Age of aircraft is not, in iteself, a safety issue. I said it appears the EU is banning airlines based on age of aircraft rather than actual "safety
43 PIA777 : I heard they might shut down ORD flights because of this, is that true? PIA777
44 A3 : Correct , age in itself is not , but combined age + lack of proper maintenance and non standard procedures is........ Thats is your assumption , many
45 Post contains links and images Imiakhtar : I think PK has a code-share agreement with TK on the FRA-IST route. http://www.piac.com.pk/Schedule/pia-Schedule.asp I just found this revised schedu
46 Post contains images Solnabo : Why would PIA shut down flights to ORD, they´re flying 777´s. Micke//  [Edited 2007-03-09 22:17:43]
47 Post contains links and images Solnabo : Reading this site, PIA stating they "have a better safety record than even certain European airlines", why dont they say which airline? http://www.daw
48 Imiakhtar : My guess is that now all aircraft bar the 777 have been banned in the EU, the 777s are being re-scheduled to serve the airports with the higher yield
49 Khobar : I have provided ample documentation from multiple sources including the EU itself that supports my "assumption" and all it's been countered with is "
50 PIA777 : To make up for the shortage of aircrat due to the EU ban. PIA777
51 Post contains images Jacobin777 : yes..they have shut down ORD completely until supposedly the 28th of this month...but I'll believe Dick Chaney 1st before I believe PK's Chairman Kir
52 VC10DC10 : Welcome to my Respected Users list!
53 Post contains links KA501 : The following article relates to the PIA ban being related to fire's on 5 seperate occasions at Manchester Airport? Seems strange they have banned B74
54 Post contains links KA501 : Further article http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0UBT/is_9_19/ai_n11854778
55 Post contains images SandroZRH : Cheers
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