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Big Unidentified 787 Customers  
User currently offlineAmirs From Israel, joined Dec 2003, 1333 posts, RR: 3
Posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 12704 times:

Who are these big unidentified customers?

September 15, 2006 Unidentified customer 11

September 26, 2006 Unidentified customer 6

October 4, 2006 Unidentified customer 10

54 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAV8AJET From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 1348 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 12663 times:

One could be DL (I hope!) when they come out of bk in June '07.


"To fly or not to fly there is no question!"
User currently offlinePRAirbus From Puerto Rico, joined Apr 2005, 1139 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 12560 times:

Most likely AA is definitely one.

User currently offlineEI321 From Iraq, joined Jul 2009, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 12549 times:

Maybe, but why would DL / AA not announce them and why so few?

User currently offlineNYC777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 5758 posts, RR: 47
Reply 4, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 12492 times:

I heard the one for 10 787s is for Oman Air. The 11 could be for VN exercising options.


That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
User currently offlineFXramper From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 7298 posts, RR: 85
Reply 5, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 12469 times:
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Quoting EI321 (Reply 3):
Maybe, but why would DL / AA not announce them and why so few?

Neither of those orders are for AA or DL; that's why.  yes 


User currently offlineAmirs From Israel, joined Dec 2003, 1333 posts, RR: 3
Reply 6, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 12334 times:

Maybe one of those is for LY, its about the time LY was suppose to pay for their options. Maybe they lied that they cancelled options, just to be in better position facing the unions.

User currently offlineKrisYYZ From Canada, joined Nov 2004, 1593 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 12289 times:

Most likely not AC, but AC does have 46 options for the B787.



KrisYYZ


User currently offlineColumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7063 posts, RR: 4
Reply 8, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 12264 times:

Tuifly has placed an large order for Boeing aircraft which included long haul aircraft as well so some of these unidentified customers might be Tui.


It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlineSSTsomeday From Canada, joined Oct 2006, 1276 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 12189 times:

These don't feel like big orders to me. A big order would be 50 from American AIrlines or Delta or United, or something like that. (Not that they have the cash).

Quoting KrisYYZ (Reply 7):
Most likely not AC, but AC does have 46 options for the B787

Perhaps most American airlines, still strapped for cash, will order the 787 this way, i.e. take a lot of options and then turn them into firm orders in smaller increments?



I come in peace
User currently offlineLTU932 From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 13864 posts, RR: 50
Reply 10, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 11888 times:

I hope those 10 787s ordered in October are ordered by LH. I'm still confident LH and DE will go Boeing for their future medium to longhaul fleet, along with the 747-8Is they ordered not too long ago.

User currently offlineNYC777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 5758 posts, RR: 47
Reply 11, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 11859 times:

In the end I think these UFO orders will probably be revealed at Paris at the end of June.


That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
User currently offlineColumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7063 posts, RR: 4
Reply 12, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 11837 times:

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 10):
I hope those 10 787s ordered in October are ordered by LH. I'm still confident LH and DE will go Boeing for their future medium to longhaul fleet, along with the 747-8Is they ordered not too long ago.

It is hard to believe that LH did not make any agreements with Boeing regarding the 787 as they agreed on the 747-8 order in December. Just for the case they will buy.

[Edited 2007-03-08 20:14:07]


It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlineBoeingFever777 From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 409 posts, RR: 53
Reply 13, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 11714 times:

Quoting AV8AJET (Reply 1):
One could be DL

Doubtful...

Quoting PRAirbus (Reply 2):
Most likely AA is definitely one.

Very doubtful...

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 11):
In the end I think these UFO orders will probably be revealed at Paris at the end of June.

100% correct!

These are not major orders. These are either 1.) options being taken up or 2.) small carrier buying a few.
I would not see DL buying 787 anytime this yr and as for AA... If they do it will be a big order like 25+ firm.



Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre.
User currently offlineBoeingFever777 From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 409 posts, RR: 53
Reply 14, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 11705 times:

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 4):
The 11 could be for VN exercising options.

The agreement also includes purchase rights for 11 additional airplanes in the 2010-2013 time frame.
http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/2005/q2/nr_050621g.html

They taking them early?



Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre.
User currently offlineFlyorski From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 987 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 11706 times:

Quoting Columba (Reply 12):
It is hard to believe that LH did not made any agreements with Boeing regarding the 787 as they agreed on the 747-8 order in Decembe even if they only had reserved delivery slots just for the case they will buy

I agree, I think we will see LH with the 787 sooner than we might think........



"None are more hopelessly enslaved, than those who falsly believe they are free" -Goethe
User currently offlineNYC777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 5758 posts, RR: 47
Reply 16, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 11664 times:

Quoting BoeingFever777 (Reply 14):
The agreement also includes purchase rights for 11 additional airplanes in the 2010-2013 time frame.
http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/2005/q2/nr_050621g.html

They taking them early?

I think the 2010-2013 time frame are the delivery slots that VN has for those options. I think they exercised those options on thosdelivery slots and that's the 11 that showed up as a UFO. I think they're probably waiting for the final govt. approvals as well as EX-IM financing before going public.



That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
User currently offlineBoeingFever777 From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 409 posts, RR: 53
Reply 17, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 11628 times:

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 16):

Makes for a good case. I'll agree.

You think Boeing said take them now or wait a long time cause they got some new major 787 orders coming from other carriers?

ie: BA, IB, LH, EK, or AA.



Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre.
User currently offlineNYC777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 5758 posts, RR: 47
Reply 18, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 11602 times:

Quoting BoeingFever777 (Reply 17):
Makes for a good case. I'll agree.

You think Boeing said take them now or wait a long time cause they got some new major 787 orders coming from other carriers?

ie: BA, IB, LH, EK, or AA.

Yeah a lot of purchasers who have options are begining to feel the pressure to exercise now or lose the slots. Especially with the A350 situation, those holding options are going to be more inclined to exercise them and they have if you take a look at the 787 order book.

I think Boeing will increase production initally to 10/month and then probably to about 14 to 15/month in 2010. I talked to someone and they think they can go to 20/month.



That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
User currently offlineFXramper From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 7298 posts, RR: 85
Reply 19, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 11586 times:
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Quoting NYC777 (Reply 18):
I talked to someone and they think they can go to 20/month.

They can always open a second line.  yes 


User currently offlineBoeingFever777 From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 409 posts, RR: 53
Reply 20, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 11568 times:

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 18):
I talked to someone and they think they can go to 20/month.

Can the supply chain meet that demand and would not they need another 747-4J6/LCF?



Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre.
User currently offlineTurk223 From Barbados, joined Aug 2003, 397 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 11471 times:

My thought is that Avianca is being secretive about the 767 replacement that has been talked about for a few months - It might be one of the unidentified?

User currently offlineNYC777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 5758 posts, RR: 47
Reply 22, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 11420 times:

Quoting BoeingFever777 (Reply 20):

Can the supply chain meet that demand and would not they need another 747-4J6/LCF?

Well Alenia says they can meet 10/month and they even said they were talking with Boeing about going higher than 10/month. Boeing would probably need another 2 - 3 LCFs and that wouldn't be too hard to procure. Heck they can sell some 748Is to an current 744 operator and buy the 2 or 3 that they need. They might have to pay slightly higher than residual prices but heck they can afford it!



That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
User currently offlineNaritaflyer From Japan, joined Apr 2006, 549 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 11355 times:

Okay, let's summarise what's been said so far. I identified all those carriers: DL, AA, AC, VN, Tui, LH, DE, IB, BA, EK, LY, Avianca. 12 in total and there were 22 responses to this thread.

Basically no one has a clue and that's understandable. Unless one is in the inside how can you know who is it for other than open ended speculation?

Unless you know from good sources who the UFOs are for...


User currently offlineSebring From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 1663 posts, RR: 14
Reply 24, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 11322 times:

Quoting KrisYYZ (Reply 7):
Most likely not AC, but AC does have 46 options for the B787.

And it intends to exercise many of them.

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 18):

Yeah a lot of purchasers who have options are begining to feel the pressure to exercise now or lose the slots.

You don't necessarily lose slots unless you fail to exercise options by a required date. In Air Canada's case, it has fixed exercise/delivery dates on many of its options. There is nothing Boeing can do to make AC commit early unless it offers AC earlier delivery dates (which, by the way, AC would take). Otherwise, AC will wait until just before the exercise date because when you convert an option into a firm order you have to make a significant deposit on each aircraft. AC has no incentive to lay down cash early. With its 777 order, it had to commit to a specific number of 777s, but did not have to make a final commitment on how much of each derivative to order. Initially, AC ordered more 777-200LRs than 777-300ERs, but would later change those orders at specific finalization deadlines to take more 777-300ERs than 200LRs. The reason is simple: the 200LRs will cost AC about $10 million less per fin. The initial order required deposits based on the derivative initially ordered, but gave AC the right by specific finalization dates to switch each aircraft to another 777 derivative. Therefore, AC could put down smaller cash deposits initially by specifying 200LRs, then converting those to 777-300ERs at the last possible moment. So airlines are very conscious of the specific terms of options. I don't know if all carriers have the flexibility AC has in its Boeing order, but let's assume the bigger carriers with the buying power do have it.


25 CV747F : My guess would be * Sep 15 order for TUI together with 14 73G and 16 738 (both booked on Sep 16) those would add up to be the 41 orders revealed by TU
26 2wingtips : Great summary. I think you may be 100% correct.
27 Post contains links and images Kbdude : Just out of curiosity.... How about the 747-8 UFO & 777 UFO's.... can they be related in anyway to the 787 UFO's....? Pics below are from the BOEING o
28 Magyar : I hate "unidentified" orders. I would not allow them (neither for Airbus nor for Boeing). In PR sense you have an order when costumers are willing to
29 2wingtips : What a load of tripe. The customer chooses when to make the announcement. Boeing list them as orders when the contracts have been signed and payment
30 Aerofan : I hope one of those orders for VS
31 Atmx2000 : Do you think every single firm contract in any industry has to be publicized so as to reveal the identity of the other party? There is no requirement
32 Elcapi1980 : I hope is Avianca, 10 is enough for them to replace those old 767 for the international routes.............
33 CRJmx : Anyone ever think that some of the UFO's could be private customers, such as governments?
34 BoeingFever777 : What gov. would order multiply 787's and for what reason? These are no single orders.
35 Zkpilot : Could be NZ.... most observers believe that NZ will replace its 8x 772ER's with 787 (along with its already placed order of 789 to replace its 763ERs)
36 Flyabunch : Wow, the world sure is changing. When an order for 10 planes is considered "Big". I would think that an order for 25 or more would qualify as "big"...
37 2wingtips : Except that NZ will likely order the 773ER over the 748I.
38 Zkpilot : looking less and less likely although it was considered almost certain until a few months ago... The decision to purchase 773ER was supposed to go to
39 Post contains images Manni : If you asked the same question 3 days ago, how many would have known that 4 of them are for First Choice?
40 Post contains images SSTsomeday : What is the 350 "situation?" That it's due so many years later? In the event that Boeing got a potential big order, and Air Canada could not be convi
41 Columba : You may be right with this one.
42 Sebring : Airlines with fixed delivery positions and a need for some cash flow have been known to sell them for a profit, although usually the sale is to anoth
43 CV747F : Regarding the 777 UFO's * the single 777ER from Oct 27 was originally thought to be for TAAG even though I believe it's for Austrian, as on Nov 1 the
44 Post contains images BCBHokie : Wow, Unidentified Airlines is expanding rapidly - and they sure love their GE engines!
45 Flying-Tiger : That is anything, but certainly not sure. Recent reports indicate that TUI has no interest in long-haul flying and does not intend to add long-haul e
46 CV747F : the german divison of TUI (ex Hapag) has no interest in long-haul but don't forget the GB (ex Britannia) and F (ex Corsair) divisions. They already h
47 Columba : "TUI said they have orderd 65 Boeing short and longhaul aircraft, mostly 737s." This was the statement from Reuters. I got this from a former thread
48 PM : At least some of these could be for leasing companies such as ILFC, GECAS, SALE or CIT. The numbers are about right.
49 2wingtips : Wait and see the official TUI announcement.
50 Columba : Why, do you know more ?
51 Coal : I have a feeling it's AV. They might just be waiting to make the final decision on the narrow-body replacement to make the announcement of the full fl
52 SSTsomeday : Ahhh, so an AIRLINE would be more likely to try and buy another airline's options for an A/C if they wanted it badly enough. Interesting.
53 Manni : ALAFCO it is.
54 Reltney : Just finished upgrading at Delta Air Lines and they have a 787 program gearing up and if I am correct, a leasing company has the first block of aircra
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