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How Lousy ATC Is In Latin America (video)  
User currently offlineAlberchico From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 2954 posts, RR: 0
Posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 9588 times:

this is from a film that was made in Argentina that talks about a near incident with an Air France plane

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VvrbMjDvcX8

please post any comments......


short summary of every jewish holiday: they tried to kill us ,we won , lets eat !
60 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineLAXspotter From India, joined Jan 2007, 3650 posts, RR: 5
Reply 1, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 9579 times:

Holy Shit, dude that controller has a serious english language deficiency. Great video, and besides that AF pilot sounded like he was English. Unbelievable that this could happen at a major international airport like ezeiza, and the plane was low on fuel, luckily diaster was averted. I dont even think that the controller knew that he was going to be investigated when the AF pilot said, "I am going to report this, what has happened tonigh is truly, truly, amazing".


"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
User currently offlineKLM685 From Mexico, joined May 2005, 1577 posts, RR: 18
Reply 2, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 9577 times:

WOW, I just saw the video and I can't believe how stupid this controller was.

It's really clear how the ATC was:

1. NOT PAYING ATTENTION

2. BARELY understands English.


It's just shocking to think that some A$$ ATC could do something like that, specially to an European flight. I hope they fired him, little mistakes can get some serious results.

Is there any second part for it?

Also I'm impressed at how at the beginning of the video the "ATC" is arguing as if the stupid one is the AF pilot.


Cheers

[Edited 2007-03-11 09:01:05]


KLM- The Best Airline in the World!
User currently offlineSupraZachAir From Northern Mariana Islands, joined Feb 2004, 634 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 9577 times:

Unbelievable... I was totally stunned listening to that. Wow...

User currently offlineAlberchico From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 2954 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 9566 times:

the film is called air force but its spanish name is

fuerza aeria

this is a link to all the vids on youtube pertaining to this documentary
http://www.youtube.com/results?searc...a+-+Sociedad+Anonima&search=Search



short summary of every jewish holiday: they tried to kill us ,we won , lets eat !
User currently offlineAlberchico From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 2954 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 9552 times:

this is the link to an earlier air safety film he made :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whisky_Romeo_Zulu

and this link is about the documentary whose clip is shown:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuerza_a%C3%A9rea_sociedad_an%C3%B3nima



short summary of every jewish holiday: they tried to kill us ,we won , lets eat !
User currently offlineAlberchico From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 2954 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 9544 times:

these are the official film sites for the 2 movies:
http://www.aquafilms.com.ar/ingles/films_fasa_ingl.html


http://www.aquafilms.com.ar/ingles/films_wrz_ing.html



short summary of every jewish holiday: they tried to kill us ,we won , lets eat !
User currently offlinePU752 From Uruguay, joined Mar 2005, 584 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 9513 times:

After that Air France landed, the captain said he was going to demand argentine gov.
I've actually heard the ATC on Baires when I was flying between MVD and AEP, the French pilot asked TWICE if ILS on rwy 17 was available! it was not and the AF captain was nearly min fuel and made an EMERGENCY landing , incredible but true!


User currently offlinePHKLM From Northern Mariana Islands, joined Dec 2005, 1198 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 9405 times:

This arises some serious doubt with me.
First, AF417 is the flight number attached to the 5th freedom leg SCL-EZE, and then on as AF417 EZE-CDG.
This route is operated by a 772ER; I find it highly unlikely the captains did not allow for a significant amount of fuel for this short leg. The plane was nowhere near MTOW, so they could have easily added some extra fuel, as the plane wouldn't be near the max landing weight either. The alternate for EZE would have likely been COR, 350nm away, so in the worst case, the plane would be on finals at EZE, then needing to go back to COR, they should have the extra fuel on board for that.

Now if they would refer to AF418, this would be a whole different thing, I imagine the 772 leaves CDG near MTOW with its tanks filled up, starting it's long journey to EZE. Still, when approaching EZE it should be able to make it to an alternative, COR. It must have the required amount of fuel left to do so. If the plane would have encountered very strong head winds along the route, I wonder whether the captains did not realize their fuel reserves would become critical and make a fuelling-stop in GRU or GIG, two regular AF outstations.

Now this is all far fetched, as I do not think (or hope, see my signature) that AF would compromise safety by running low on fuel. A much more likely explanation is that the conversation in the movie is not real, and the director mixed up the flight numbers AF417 and AF418.

I do not claim the movie is based on nothing, I am willing to believe the Argentinean ATC is a mess, but boy those Argentineans do like big scandals...

On a side note to the OP: you have any clue how big "Latin America" is? I would prefer you change Latin America to Argentina because there's a whole lot more to LatAm than Argentina (despite my impression Argentineans might tend to ignore that Big grin )


User currently offlinePHKLM From Northern Mariana Islands, joined Dec 2005, 1198 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 9394 times:

Quoting PU752 (Reply 7):
've actually heard the ATC on Baires when I was flying between MVD and AEP,

Either, you are a pilot and I may HOPE you listened to the ATC of Bue; or you where flying United Airlines and listening to Channel 9 (shouldn't it be disabled outside the US and boasting some classical music instead?) or you annoyed your fellow passengers by listening to a radio scanner in mid-flight, and I'm not so sure that is very legal either.
Please help me out.


User currently offlineMD80fanatic From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 2661 posts, RR: 9
Reply 10, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 9316 times:

So the controller is not a native english speaker.....that is not a requirement. Personally, I had no problem understanding the controller. The first mistake was the controller issuing an ILS clearance where no ILS equipment is functional. The pilots then radiod back for confirmation asking whether the ILS on 35 was "serviceable". A few seconds pass as the controller tries to discern was was intended by the term "serviceable".

I am a native English speaker, and I would have to think twice before answering that question. Does serviceable mean "is the unit in service" or does it mean "is it able to be fixed in time for the approach". I think it's ( <<<< normal contraction) not a wise idea to use terms like "serviceable" ( <<< not really a normal contraction) when communicating with foreign ATCs. A few second delay in the response is not all that unusual, if terminolgy is used the controller is not entirely familiar with.

ATC made the mistake of clearing for ILS 35 where no ILS was functional. The AF pilot made the mistake of using possibly confusing terminology, coupled with a very audible agitation level. The pilot also used unusual breaks in his speech....sometimes mid-sentence....which can tend to be confusing.

Recommendations:

EZE ATC, get a grip on what nav equipment is in operation at the airport.
AF pilot, speak more slowly if possible....and try to use wording that is more common, like "does it work?" rather than "is it serviceable?"


User currently offlinePHKLM From Northern Mariana Islands, joined Dec 2005, 1198 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 9272 times:

Quoting PHKLM (Reply 9):
or you where flying United Airlines and listening to Channel 9 (shouldn't it be disabled outside the US and boasting some classical music instead?)

I can cross this one off because you clearly said MVD-AEP and I know this then has to be Aerolineas or Pluna, as UA flies MVD-EZE.


User currently offlineLegacy135 From Switzerland, joined May 2005, 1052 posts, RR: 26
Reply 12, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 9245 times:

Quoting MD80fanatic (Reply 10):
Does serviceable mean "is the unit in service" or does it mean "is it able to be fixed in time for the approach

I do see your point. But ATC English isn't English as you speak it. It's a kind of simplified language, set up that everybody should understand it. This makes it particularly difficult for us Europeans, flying into the US, as those guys normally just talk. So we have to pay special attention.

The term "serviceable" in ATC English means "functional" or "on service". So by receiving the clearance as given by the controller, a pilot can expect the ILS to work.

I personally can not see, how the ATC controller could clear the AF for an ILS that was out of service. They do have status indication, as all those NAV aids are constantly monitored. Furthermore, as it's off for a long time now, everybody there must have known.

If there is critics about the AF crew, I do see it in the relatively complex way of talking in English to the controller. It was obvious to realize, that the controller had difficulties in understanding. Anyhow, I also would expect controllers on Argentines biggest international airport to handle such a situation without problems.

Cheers
Legacy135 Wink


User currently offlineAlberchico From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 2954 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 9077 times:

Quoting PHKLM (Reply 8):
On a side note to the OP: you have any clue how big "Latin America" is? I would prefer you change Latin America to Argentina because there's a whole lot more to LatAm than Argentina (despite my impression Argentineans might tend to ignore that

even though this focuses on argentina many latin countries because of lack of funds and mismanagement have similar probles with their aviation infrastructure....



short summary of every jewish holiday: they tried to kill us ,we won , lets eat !
User currently offlineEbs757 From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 758 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 8790 times:

Thats just sickening...


Viva la Vida
User currently offlineCaptaink From Mexico, joined May 2001, 5109 posts, RR: 12
Reply 15, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 8637 times:

That is crazy, and very unprofessional on the part of the ATC... But I am going on a limb here by saying that is situation may not be the case with all of Latin America, nor even Argentina. Saying it is, may be somewhat a predjudiced generalization.

P.S. Cool accent that Argentine reporter had though.



There is something special about planes....
User currently offlineJBirdAV8r From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 4491 posts, RR: 21
Reply 16, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 8286 times:

Quoting PHKLM (Reply 8):
This route is operated by a 772ER; I find it highly unlikely the captains did not allow for a significant amount of fuel for this short leg. The plane was nowhere near MTOW, so they could have easily added some extra fuel, as the plane wouldn't be near the max landing weight either. The alternate for EZE would have likely been COR, 350nm away, so in the worst case, the plane would be on finals at EZE, then needing to go back to COR, they should have the extra fuel on board for that.

Now if they would refer to AF418, this would be a whole different thing, I imagine the 772 leaves CDG near MTOW with its tanks filled up, starting it's long journey to EZE. Still, when approaching EZE it should be able to make it to an alternative, COR. It must have the required amount of fuel left to do so. If the plane would have encountered very strong head winds along the route, I wonder whether the captains did not realize their fuel reserves would become critical and make a fuelling-stop in GRU or GIG, two regular AF outstations.

Thanks, armchair observer, but you're making a fair amount of assumptions here, and I doubt their accuracy.

Declaring "low fuel" (in the US, "minimum fuel") doesn't necessarily mean the flight doesn't have enough fuel to continue to the destination or an alternate. It means, basically, that any undue delay could result in an emergency. Likely the AF pilot was trying to get some semblance of worthwhile handling from ATC, and that if he kept futzing around at low altitude on the missed approach, things could get hairy. Declaring minimum fuel is more of an advisory, kind of a "hey, pay attention to me, you might want to give me a little more priority before I declare an emergency and make me your priority." I think it was a worthwhile attempt to get the controller's attention (which he obviously wasn't getting) and salvage a bad situation.

I am not familiar with the JAA rules pertaining to low fuel (many here are/would be) but I am familiar with the FAA's outlook on it.



I got my head checked--by a jumbo jet
User currently offlineSCCutler From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 5615 posts, RR: 28
Reply 17, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 7870 times:

For what it is worth, my experience with controllers in Mexico and in Belize has been complete professionalism and excellent service.


...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
User currently offlineLuisde8cd From Pitcairn Islands, joined Aug 2004, 2575 posts, RR: 31
Reply 18, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 7821 times:

Quoting PHKLM (Reply 8):
On a side note to the OP: you have any clue how big "Latin America" is? I would prefer you change Latin America to Argentina because there's a whole lot more to LatAm than Argentina (despite my impression Argentineans might tend to ignore that Big grin )

This is a typical thread coming from an Argentinian a.netter. If things in Argentina go bad then it's all of LatinAmerica which is sinking, if things in Argentina go well then it's the almighty Argentina which is the country in the region with best development index.

Now back to the original thread... if this is true then action must be taken against that controller. I can't believe how ATC Management could put a non-english speaker in Ezeiza Approach. Here in Venezuela our airports' ILS systems are a good thing to remember from the past (most of them have broken down in recent years and nobody has cared enough to fix them), but airport charts and ATC DO tell pilots about that and guide them for visual approaches.

ATC in Mexico is great, especially handling all that traffic around Mexico City.

ATC is Panama is very very scary. Planes takeoff from whatever runway direction they choose.

Saludos desde Caracas,
Luis


User currently offlineFLY2HMO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 7694 times:

Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 18):
ATC in Mexico is great, especially handling all that traffic around Mexico City

Yeah. I've monitored ATC with my scanner when I'm in Mexico and I've always been impressed, a few heavy accents here and there, but otherwise excellent.


User currently offlineCRFLY From Costa Rica, joined Jan 2004, 197 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 7629 times:

Very interesting! Before I graduated from Embry-Riddle, I wrote a report about the misscommunication problem between pilots and ATC, and the problem of the poor English proficency that ATC and pilots have. Here is a summary of my research, hope you enjoy it.



Communication Errors and Language Issues in Air Traffic Control


Some important accidents in the history of aviation happened because of language barriers between pilots and the ATC. The accidents of Tenerife, New York, Cali, India, and Guam, were an example of poor English proficiency from both air traffic controllers and airmen. These misunderstandings led to major disasters in the aviation industry.
The International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) agreed to set English language standards by March 2008, in order to have safer skies, especially in foreign countries. Maybe until then no major airline accidents will be blamed on language issues.

Over the years, English has been established as the worldwide official language for air traffic control (ATC) communications. Pilots from the United States and other English-speaking countries learn to fly and communicate in English with the ATC. However, that is not the case in other parts of the world, where pilots communicate with the ATC in their native languages. Only pilots who fly internationally are “required” to be proficient in English and establish two-way communication with the ATC in English. This might be the cause of some major accidents in the history of aviation.

In some regions of the world, pilots communicate with each other, and with the ATC, in the native language of the area. Only major foreign carriers that fly into those international airports speak English with the ATC, causing difficulties to the controllers because the other language and English are spoken randomly at the same time. Also, foreign pilots do not understand what is spoken on the radio, and therefore they have no idea of the positions of the other aircrafts in the pattern, especially dangerous during take-offs and landings.

Nordwall emphasizes the problem that pilots face when they are in countries where the ATC is conducted in another language. This is a major danger because the airmen have no situational awareness, something very common in Latin America when the foreign pilots “suddenly find they have no idea what’s going on around them” (46).
Those affected by this language problem can be divided into two groups: The first group is the English-speaking pilots who fly to another country where English is not the official language, where the ATC and the local pilots talk in their native language. The other group is the foreign pilots who fly into an English-speaking country, and whose English is so poor that they can hardly communicate with the ATC. They can not understand what the ATC is talking about and also the ATC can not understand what the pilots are trying to say. Asians, Europeans, Latin Americans and Middle Eastern pilots and controllers often have been in this situation.


1. Pan American and KLM – Tenerife, 1977

As stated by Flight International, “the worst accident in aviation history was caused by a crew thinking they had take-off clearance when they did not” (5). That happened on March 27, 1977 when two Boeings 747s collided and crashed on the runway at Santa Cruz de Tenerife, on one of the Spanish Canary Islands. According to Air Disaster, a total of 583 people died, 335 aboard the Pan American World Airways (Pan Am) 747 and all the 248 passengers on the KLM Jumbo Jet (03271977).

Gero explains that a bomb had exploded at Las Palmas Airport on The Gran Canaria Island. That main terminal was closed, forcing all traffic to fly to nearby airports. The KLM and the Pan Am flights also had to divert to Los Rodeos Airport in Santa Cruz de Tenerife (140).

When the main airport at Las Palmas reopened, both KLM and Pan Am flights decided to fly back. Gero also mentions that the ground traffic of airplanes was so congested that the 747s were required to taxi over the main runway in order to reach the very end of it, turn around and then take off. The KLM flight was taxiing first, followed by the Pan Am 747. The weather was deteriorating and the airport was covered with a dense fog (140).

Flight International reports that the KLM 747 was at the very end of runway 12 ready to turn 180° for its departure. Meanwhile, the Pan Am 747 was still taxiing on the same runway, and although they were told by the ATC to exit on the third exit, the Pan Am jet continued taxiing towards the next exit (5). In the meantime, the KLM 747 had turned and called the tower “we are now at take off,” released the brakes and applied full power. The Tenerife Tower replied “OK, stand by for take- off, I will call you,” but this message was broken up by the Pan Am simultaneous transmission “no, we’re still taxing down the runway”. The KLM 747 hurtled down the foggy runway and crashed against the Pan Am 747 (5).

Multiple circumstances were involved in the crash of the two 747s, and it was the first time a communication error between two pilots of different jetliners and the ATC led to such a deadly accident. The terms used by the Dutch captain (“we are now at take off”) were misunderstood by the Spanish controller, who gave the KLM aircraft the departure clearance but told them to take position and hold on runway 12. After that KLM transmission, the ATC responded “OK, stand by for take-off, I will call you,” a clear statement that the controller did not understand that the 747 was starting the take-off roll.

But the Pan Am pilot heard the KLM transmission and replied quickly, breaking up the ATC transmission, because the American pilot knew they had misunderstood each other and that the KLM 747 was on its take-off roll while they were still taxiing towards the next exit.


2. Avianca – New York, 1990

According to Gero, on January 25th, 1990 a Boeing 707 from the Colombian carrier Avianca was flying between the Capital Bogota, and New York’s Kennedy International Airport (JFK). Flight 52 did an intermediate stop in Medellin, the second largest city of Colombia. The flight was routine for the Boeing 707 crew. The flight departed Medellin with 158 passengers and crew onboard. The pilots reported no incidents on the way from Medellin to New York (218).
As reported in the NSTB Accident Report, “because of poor weather conditions in the northeastern United States, the flight crew was placed in hold three times by air traffic control for a total amount of 1 hour and 17 minutes” (1).
Gero affirms that during the holding patter of more than an hour, the 707 consumed its fuel reserve load, which was to have been used to divert to its alternative destination, Boston Logan Airport (218).

The author also makes reference to the fact that when the ATC at JFK asked the Avianca flight crew how much longer the aircraft could hold, the first officer replied “about five minutes” (218). Because of the wind shear conditions and strong head wind, the crew missed the first approach and had to go around for a second attempt, but the plane did not have enough fuel to fly the pattern again and complete a second approach, a situation that Gero called “the stage for the disaster” (219). After the go-around procedure, the controllers asked the Avianca crew to ascend to a higher altitude but the first offer replied “negative Sir, we just running [sic] out of fuel” (219), and after that, the jet engines failed from fuel exhaustion, causing the Boeing 707 to crash on a wooden hillside of Cove Neck, on the northern side of Long Island.

The main issue of this accident was the poor English proficiency of the pilots for maintaining a communication with the ATC, and informing them that they were having a fuel emergency. Also, they should have informed the ATC that because the holding pattern was longer than expected, the aircraft would not even make the alternate airport at Boston. Another issue of this accident discussed in the NTSB report, was the poor ATC flow control which included the responsibilities to accommodate an aircraft with low fuel (1).


3. American Airlines – Cali, Colombia, 1995

On December 20, 1995 an American Airlines Boeing 757 crashed into mountain terrain close to Cali, Colombia, killing all but four of the 163 passengers and crew (Gero, 255). The accident revealed that many mistakes were made by the crew of the 757, but also a language barrier between them and the Colombian traffic controller. According to Gero, American flight 965 was cleared for landing to runway 19 at Cali International Airport. “Over the next few minutes, a period marked by confusion on its flight deck, the jetliner strayed from the proper course, descended below the minimum altitude and ultimately crashed in the Andes some 40 miles north-north-east of its destination” (255).

According to the author, the flight plan had runway 1 as the designated runway for landing, but the pilots decided to use runway 19 and approach from the opposite direction in order to expedite the landing, because the flight was coming two hours late from Miami (256).

Although the accident was blamed on the pilots, Nordwall reports that even though the controller was aware that the crew had passed an important waypoint, he could not communicate that message to the crew in English (46). Gero also states that the controller was limited in the English language and not trained to solicit information from the pilots to determine the extent of the difficulty they were experiencing (257). The author also relates that “although the controller said there were no language difficulties between him and the crew, he later admitted that he would have asked the pilots detailed questions regarding the routering [sic] and approach had they spoken in his native Spanish” (257).


4. Saudi Arabian and Kazakhstan Airlines – India 1996

According to Gero, the worst mid-air collision in the history of commercial aviation occurred on November 12, 1996 fifty miles west of New Delhi, India (268). Air Disaster reports that a Boeing 747-100 of Saudi Arabian Airlines and cargo Ilyushin IL-76 of Kazakhstan Airlines collided in mid-air after the Kazakhstan crew failed to maintain their assigned altitude (11121996). According to Gero, “the failure of the Kazakhstan transport to maintain its assigned altitude height was attributed to poor command of the English language used by its pilots, which caused a misunderstanding between them and the controller” (269). The author also cites that the accident report concluded that the “lack of professionalism and their poor cockpit discipline caused the collision” (269). A total of 349 passengers from both airplanes perished in the collision.

According to Gero, a contributing factor to the accident was the absence of a secondary radar system covering the area, which would have provided the controller with the height of both aircrafts, and the use of the same airway for arriving and departing flights. Neither the 747 nor the Ilyushin were equipped with a collision-avoidance system (269).


5. Korean Air – Guam, 1997

On August 7, 1997 a Boeing 747-300 of Korean Air crashed on a hill closed to Agana International Airport, serving Guam. “The aircraft had been cleared for a ‘localizer-only’ non-precision approach to runway 06-Left. The clearance included the advisory that the glide slope portion of the Instrument Landing System (ILS) was unusable” (Gero, 271).
An analysis of the voice recorder transcript indicated that prior to the crash the “not-in-sight” and missed approach calls had been made, and the ground proximity warning system had previously sounded “minimums” and “sink rate”, but the 747 continued its descent until it struck a tree and then slammed into the uneven terrain, broke apart and burst into flames (Gero, 270).

The author attributed the accident to the inadequate briefing and execution of the approach by the captain, the improper monitoring of the first and second officers’ actions by the captain, and to the poor English knowledge of the entire crew, who ignored the warning of the controller that the glide slope of the ILS was unusable (271). Air disaster reports that 228 out of the 254 passengers and crew died in Korean Air flight 801 that night (08061997).


The language factor has caused many accidents since the Tenerife crash, and too many of the passenger fatalities have been attributed to language factors. According to The Port Authority of NY and NJ, at New York’s JFK Airport alone, controllers must communicate with pilots from more than 75 different nationalities, and for most of them, English is a second or third language.

As stated by Elizabeth Mathews, “the English language-speaking industry is a huge robust market with 500-600 companies, but for aviation-specific language, the market is not so robust, and although the airlines have developed in-house training programs and materials, none are entirely appropriate.”

Language factors caused seven of the most deadly airline accidents, six of them during the decade of the 90’s. Maybe after the ICAO standards that will be mandatory after 2008, language will not be an issue anymore for the safe execution of the airlines’ operations.



With Age comes Wisdom...
User currently offlineSumma767 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 2569 posts, RR: 6
Reply 21, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 7404 times:

There have been serious questions raised about Argentinian ATC before. For what I have read this thread should be called "lousy ATC in Argentina", as South America is a pretty big continent and problems shown on this documentary should not be generalised.

The author of "Air Force plc" was a LAPA pilot, and had before made another documentary about a LAPA 737 crash, and the systemic failings that contributed.


User currently offlineCoa747 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 7168 times:

I would have to agree that it isn't fair to make a blanket statement about South America. This issue seems to be localized to Argentina.

As part of my job I have to check flight tracks against ATC tapes to determine if departure and arrival procedures are followed and sometimes the controllers speak so fast I have to play back the recording to understand so I can just imagine what European pilots and others deal with when flying within the USA. That being said the controllers when not understood are almost always nice and will repeat the transmission at a slower pace when they realize the pilot is not from the US.

The other thing to consider is phraseology, even though english is spoken in both the US and Great Britain for example there are rather large differences between the queens english and the US english.

As for the Avianca flight the biggest problem was the crews use of the word priority which did not mean the same thing to the controller as it did to the Avianca crew, that and the fact that the controllers were slammed dealing with the bad weather and just didn't pick up the urgency of the situation until it was too late.


User currently offlineAlberchico From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 2954 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 6834 times:

Quoting Captaink (Reply 15):
P.S. Cool accent that Argentine reporter had though.

all argentines have that native accent
 Smile



short summary of every jewish holiday: they tried to kill us ,we won , lets eat !
User currently offlineElectech6299 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 616 posts, RR: 3
Reply 24, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 6797 times:

Quoting KLM685 (Reply 2):
Also I'm impressed at how at the beginning of the video the "ATC" is arguing as if the stupid one is the AF pilot.

I am curious, and perhaps it will take a pilot with charts of EZE to answer this. Do the current charts reflect the ILS inop and circle-to-land procedure for approach to 35? Is it possible that the AF pilot was expected to know the approach procedure- and the ATC just failed to recognize that the pilot didn't know the procedure?

Clearly the language barrier was bad, and clearly the controller made serious- even terminable- errors. But before we lay blame, shouldn't we also know what each of the parties was responsible for?

If I go to the McDonald's drive through, I am supposed to read the menu and order from there. I am supposed to know that McDonalds does not sell hot dogs. So if I go to the drive through and order in fluent, rapid english, "I-want-a-large-drink-and-a-hot-dog-and-small-fries", the teller is probably going to go on about what kind of drink I want and so on, and not understand that I want a hot dog, and when he/she finally does, she will tell me that I can't get one at McDonalds.

So, when the AF pilot asked for ILS 35, was he supposed to know the circle-and-land procedure? Was the AF pilot asking for a hot dog at McDonalds? It's situations like that when language barriers become intense- when they are predicated by cultural, geographic, or technical barriers. Perhaps if the AF pilot had prepared for the flight and read his charts, this might not have happened.

(Again, I'm not trying to excuse the ATC, just trying to see the big picture)



Send not to know for whom the bell tolls...it tolls for thee
25 Post contains images Fly727 : So very truth. I deal every single day with ATC in Mexico and I always find it professional and reliable. It can surely improve as some places lack o
26 PPVRA : Of course I think every ATCer should speak english, and do so well, but to a certain extent I can see why maybe the guy got confused. There's some mis
27 Juventus : You topic is misleading, you should specify the country. United launching flights from Washington to Beijing is not the same as United launching flig
28 ATCT : We do in the states, I cant say that statement about every country though. You got to be smoking something. We have delays all the time due to equipm
29 LipeGIG : Well i have to say that Brazil face the same problem. In a recent pool by our authorities only 29% of the ATC staff speaks english fluently. They are
30 Post contains images MD11junkie : Where's all this bullshit coming from? I know, it's Chavez's fault! Get a grip. I find your first paragraph insulting, and generalization. If you kne
31 PU752 : Not to be offensive but im not going to explain you something that you couldnt understand if you're not familiar with operations over baires airspace
32 Post contains links and images BMIFlyer : Scary! Correct. Last year when I flew UA back in 2005, I was listening to Ch9 over the atlantic. I heard plenty of aircraft communicating with the USA
33 Post contains links and images FLY2HMO : *Ahem*, Mexico has enroute radar coverage all over, and TRACON in almost all the major airports. http://www.seneam.gob.mx/
34 PPVRA : I've only listened to GRU ATC once on a UA flight (Channel 9). The ATCer spoke English pretty well (apparantly, although there wasn't that much being
35 PU752 : Are brazilian controllers militars or civilians ? how does it work on GRU ?
36 ATCT : As a riddled with debt person I see you work in the industry and deal with their delays everyday. (Wow, due to Non-Radar spacing along with other del
37 Post contains images Fly727 : Non-radar spacing? Affecting inbound traffic from MX to the US? Both MMZT MMTY cover the area 100%... Besides, the most important Terminal Aereas hav
38 Alberchico : When the movie came out in Argentina what was the general reaction from people ???
39 FelixSJU : I agree with you, many of the ATC's and also the Aproach controlers of SJU don't speak english as a 1st lenguage and they have no problems like these
40 Post contains links and images Marambio : The situation in Argentina is sick. Since the 1960s, the Air Force controls civil aviation and all they have done is practically nothing. We are still
41 Lh526 : I totally second that pilots emotions and would have acted the same!! I flew pletny of times in and out of EZE on various equipment and airlines and k
42 PU752 : now that sounds very odd, why would they land in there ? if they have rwy 11/28 , and I guess a little of crosswing wouldnt have matter that much to
43 Post contains links LVZXV : Indeed, it is very convenient to blame the Argentine Air Force for everything. It is also very Argentine not just to deflect the blame but at only one
44 Marambio : When did that happen? First time I hear it, and while our aviation authorities are a pain in the ass, they usually do issue NOTAMs when these things
45 LH526 : Must have been around 1994 or 1997. The construction was very fresh and there was no NOTAM issued about that (not untill a few days later). and the L
46 PHKLM : With inflation hitting 10% in 2006, higher than Chile and Brazil (~2-3%) but even Bolivia (4%) it is very tough to recover. The ARS (Peso Argentino)
47 VEEREF : Most of the time the actual chart itself will not indicate wether an approach is operative at any given moment. That kind of information is normally
48 LipeGIG : There are two different controllers. The four main centers, Brasilia, Recife, Manaus and Curitiba, are controlled by military. The airport towers (ap
49 ATCT : As I would love to ride along anywhere. (Hey, what pilot wouldnt!). If i came across wrong I apologize. At work I get delays almost every day of "Air
50 Juventus : There are some seasonal volume delays, but mainly Cancun and Cabo. That's due to heavy traffic, that's all. Last season, we got 20 minute delays into
51 Airfoilsguy : I think everyone can all agree that ATC was lacking in this incident. But the pilot acted like an ass. There is no reason for him to request "official
52 PU752 : yeah I agree, also the portuñol is VERY usual in Brazil when spanish speaker pilots fly there and viceversa. Yeah but how is he going to do that wit
53 SansVGs : Having an argument in the air is never good. A simple call to the tower later is always the best plan. ATC is asset to CRM. Why take them out of the l
54 Alberchico : please show me exactly where I said that ..... Perhaps this happend many times and the Air France crew were tired of the lack of professionalism from
55 Lostturttle : Excellent post and a great read.
56 Post contains images Electech6299 : I understand that, but for 17 years...(wasn't that the time quoted?) Do they issue the NOTAM every day for 17 years? I would also think that alternat
57 PU752 : its pretty hard to be 100% calm when a difficult or even better said emergency situation happends, maybe not even a 60yr old captain with over 20,000
58 Post contains images Fly727 : No problem dude! As Juventus mentioned the biggest headaches concerning ATC in Mexico (all of them due to excessive traffic) are MEX (which Juventus
59 Post contains images Marambio : I was quoting Mr Luis from Caracas. I'd never say such a thing! Saludos, Marambio
60 Electech6299 : I never said 100% calm. The term "calm heads" means clear thinking and appropriate actions, whether the heart is racing or not. Also, keep in mind in
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