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IL96 And Economics  
User currently offlinePEET7G From Hungary, joined Jan 2007, 695 posts, RR: 0
Posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 5095 times:

Anyone have any detailed know-how on the economics and performance data of some Russian planes, especially the IL96? What I mean we always have discussions and comparisons with the B and A products, but never have I seen reasonable data nor discussion of the same with this beautiful bird. Things like cargo, and standard containers, take-off performance, payload economics, galley servicing.... things that we pretty much know about the 777, 747, A330, etc. Is there any downloadable detailed characteristics data sheet anywhere like there is for the A and B products? I simply can not get enough of russian metal...  Silly


Peet7G
43 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineEI321 From Iraq, joined Jul 2009, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 5067 times:

These kind of figures would be hard to find, I can imagine. But the IL96 is almost definitly less efficient than its Boeing or Airbus counterparts, but obviously less expensive to aquire also.

User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 26997 posts, RR: 57
Reply 2, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 5046 times:

Quoting PEET7G (Thread starter):
I simply can not get enough of russian metal...

I love the IL96 also. I wish we saw more of them .


User currently offlineEI321 From Iraq, joined Jul 2009, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 5036 times:

Quoting OA260 (Reply 2):
Quoting PEET7G (Thread starter):
I simply can not get enough of russian metal...

I love the IL96 also. I wish we saw more of them .

It would be great to see a modern Ilyushin widebody twin based on the fuselage. I wonder have they any serious design studies for one. Obviously it wont happen now that the 787 and A350XWB are around.


User currently offlineCJAContinental From United Kingdom, joined May 2006, 459 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 5011 times:

For a start, the engines on the il-96 are a complete exageration of the hair dryers you would see on an A340-200/300, its equivalent. The extremely low bypass ratio means this bird gobbles up lots and lots of fuel. As for the shape of the aircraft, the pitch of the wing, long distance efficiency, then I'm not sure. Put some new engines on the il-96, and it would make a massive difference I think.


Work Hard/Fly Right.
User currently offlineEI321 From Iraq, joined Jul 2009, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 4981 times:

Its cruising speed of .80 mach does not help matters either.

Quoting CJAContinental (Reply 4):
For a start, the engines on the il-96 are a complete exageration of the hair dryers you would see on an A340-200/300, its equivalent. The extremely low bypass ratio means this bird gobbles up lots and lots of fuel.

Which engines do you men, there is the Aviadvigatel PS-90 & P&W2337 on different versions.


User currently offlineRJ111 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 4959 times:

Quoting CJAContinental (Reply 4):
Put some new engines on the il-96, and it would make a massive difference I think.

The Il-96M has PW2043s.

Or 2337s even.

[Edited 2007-03-12 00:03:23]

User currently offlinePanAm747 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4242 posts, RR: 8
Reply 7, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 4896 times:

Quote:
The extremely low bypass ratio means this bird gobbles up lots and lots of fuel.

Unfortunately so, but considering the challenges of operating aircraft in an environment such as Russia, I would bet the Russian aircraft are extraordinarily tough and durable.

Most Russian passenger aircraft have been designed with extra strength landing gear built into the wings to spread the load on gravel runways. I'm not sure about the IL-96, but even if not, I would imagine it is still a product of this school of thought.

Wasn't there a thread a while back about a video of an IL-96 taking off at Phuket? And the loud howl as the low-bypass ratio engines struggled to get the plane airborne in time?



Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
User currently offlineLTU932 From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 13864 posts, RR: 50
Reply 8, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 4755 times:

Quoting RJ111 (Reply 6):
The Il-96M has PW2043s.

Correct, but AFAIK, not a single one IL-96M with PW2000 engines was sold.

I don't know if Ilyushin still offers the IL-96M (aka IL-96-400) and -96T (T for freighter model) with PW2000s, but I believe they also offer it with PS-90 engines, probably to make it more attractive for Russian carriers and others who can't afford to buy it with Western engines.

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 7):
Wasn't there a thread a while back about a video of an IL-96 taking off at Phuket?

I'd like to know where to find it. For now, here's a vid of an IL-96 taking off from PRG.  Wink

http://flightlevel350.com/Aircraft_I..._Aeroflot_Aviation_Video-1503.html


User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 9, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 4738 times:

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 7):
Wasn't there a thread a while back about a video of an IL-96 taking off at Phuket?

I remember one about an IL-86; used the entire runway!



"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offlineKL808 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 1584 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 4701 times:

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 7):
Wasn't there a thread a while back about a video of an IL-96 taking off at Phuket?



Quoting Lumberton (Reply 9):
I remember one about an IL-86; used the entire runway!

Here's a picture not a video of an IL-96 take off:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Sam Chui



and IL-86


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Sam Chui




Drew



AMS-LAX-MNL
User currently offlineAfay1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 1293 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 4599 times:

No IL-86 or IL-96 production aircraft have P&W engines on them, although tests were done (w/ CFM in the IL86's case). And yes, the economics and range of both aircraft in extant are hopeless in everything except high density config. However, new IL-96's are coming with an upgraded version of the PS90 engine, and combined with the much lower cost of acquisition, makes it a more viable option. From a purely butt-in-the-seat perspective, however, the IL-86 is a pleasure to fly!

User currently offlineABpositive From Australia, joined Nov 2005, 226 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 4490 times:

I think one of the big problems is the unavailability of global product support, which of course there is no point of having in place without a large enough customer base, which is hard to attract without a proper support... you get the message, a bit of a catch 22. So without a decent capital injection (e.g. government subsidies...) it'll be hard to see any serious contention to giants like A&B, as much as I'd like to see another aircraft manufacturer out there.

User currently offlinePEET7G From Hungary, joined Jan 2007, 695 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 4447 times:

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 7):
Most Russian passenger aircraft have been designed with extra strength landing gear built into the wings to spread the load on gravel runways.

You said it, as an old time frequent flier of the TU154s and TU 134s (well at least as long as they where in service with MALEV) I can say nothing beats the feeling of drag when those massive bogies fold out for landing! Those sounds and forces when them babies fly!!! During my last visit to Moscow I took an Aeroflot TU154... when we came in for landing all those goosebumps came back and good old memories struck me when the massive bogies popped open!



Peet7G
User currently offlineEI321 From Iraq, joined Jul 2009, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 4285 times:

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 8):
Quoting RJ111 (Reply 6):
The Il-96M has PW2043s.

Correct, but AFAIK, not a single one IL-96M with PW2000 engines was sold.

Funding for the P&W version was pulled before it gained any momentum.


User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 26997 posts, RR: 57
Reply 15, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 4192 times:

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 7):
I would bet the Russian aircraft are extraordinarily tough and durable.

Yeah the IL 86 I flew on a few years back was like a tank lol...but amazingly big inside like a living room. Was a cool experience. The interior is kind of Square shaped. It did feel like it was struggling to get off the runway though but maybe thats the way it works.

The Phuket photo is dramatic, looks like they just made it !!!!


User currently offlinePavlovsDog From Norway, joined Sep 2005, 658 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 4083 times:

Quoting EI321 (Reply 3):
It would be great to see a modern Ilyushin widebody twin based on the fuselage. I wonder have they any serious design studies for one. Obviously it wont happen now that the 787 and A350XWB are around.

There used to be mention of a twin IL-98 project. I haven't heard about it in a while.

I believe from looking at the data here that in a 3-class configuration the IL-96-300 has 3 class seating of 235 which is comparable to the Airbus 330-200 in capacity. They also have very similar operating empty weights of about 121 metric tons. The IL-96 has atrocious range/payload specs though so I suspect that if they put the engines from the 787 and A350 onto a slightly upgraded wing they'd have a competitive product. In theory at least.


User currently offlineEI321 From Iraq, joined Jul 2009, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 4060 times:

Quoting PavlovsDog (Reply 16):
The IL-96 has atrocious range/payload specs though so I suspect that if they put the engines from the 787 and A350 onto a slightly upgraded wing they'd have a competitive product. In theory at least.

Putting geNX type engines would not be enough in my opinion. The basic design is still too 1980s in terms of systems, cockpit, etc, not to mention the issues around product support around the world. If the RRJ cant sell well as a truely modern design outside of russia than its unlikely that the IL96 can

[Edited 2007-03-12 15:40:17]

User currently offlinePavlovsDog From Norway, joined Sep 2005, 658 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 4041 times:

I assume you meant that it would not be enough.

You're right though. They'd be wise to use the cockpit from the RRJ or Superjet or whatever Sukhoi is calling it these days and make sure the MS-21 project is compatible as well. Full commonality of all three aircraft families would certainly help their business case.


User currently offlineIADCA From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 1291 posts, RR: 8
Reply 19, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 4011 times:

Quoting EI321 (Reply 5):
Its cruising speed of .80 mach does not help matters either.

IIRC, that's faster than the A340 (at least according to Air France's numbers) and the 767, which both did decently well (somebody correct me if I'm wrong)...the fuel consumption, reputation (deserved or not) of Russian airliners, and lack of product support in all manners (logistics, spares, etc) seem to be the real problems.


User currently offlineR2rho From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2630 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 3772 times:

Love Russian aircraft, but we will have to wait some time until we see them flying regularly in the West (because yes, I do believe there will be a comeback of Russian aviation). Let's wait and see what happens with the Sukhoi Superjet. They've teamed up with Snecma for the engine and are in partnership with Alenia which guarantees them logistic support and maintenance in Western countries, one of the big problems Russian aircraft usually face. It could be an interesting competitor to the EMB 190. If it proves succesful, it would open the way for future widebody designs. But all in due time, you have to do things step by step.

User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 21, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 3618 times:

Quoting R2rho (Reply 20):
They've teamed up with Snecma for the engine and are in partnership with Alenia which guarantees them logistic support and maintenance in Western countries, one of the big problems Russian aircraft usually face.

Snecma knows their stuff for sure and this should be a big plus for marketing this aircraft. However, will the Russians be willing to discount deeply in order to gain an edge over Embraer and Bombardier? After all, they are the new kid on the block and they are going to have to convince a few airlines to take a chance on them. A good way to ease the fear is with a great deal up front.



"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offlineAeroflot777 From Russia, joined Mar 2004, 3008 posts, RR: 26
Reply 22, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 3581 times:

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 21):
After all, they are the new kid on the block and they are going to have to convince a few airlines to take a chance on them. A good way to ease the fear is with a great deal up front.

Many premier airlines have already showed a huge interest, so no convincing is really necessary.

Aeroflot777


User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 23, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 3413 times:

Quoting Aeroflot777 (Reply 22):
Many premier airlines have already showed a huge interest, so no convincing is really necessary.

You and I can "show interest". Question is, will they buy? Nothing like incentives to persuade. Remember "money talks and"...well, something else "walks".  Wink



"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offlineAutoThrust From Switzerland, joined Jun 2006, 1596 posts, RR: 9
Reply 24, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 3393 times:

Quoting IADCA (Reply 19):
IIRC, that's faster than the A340

Totally wrong, that has been discussed to death, most airlines fly the A340 at mach 0.82 ~ 0.83

Would like there would be more IL96 flying around, such a grace and loud. (love loud planes) Big grin



“Faliure is not an option.”
25 Post contains links A342 : I'm quite sure you got that wrong. The IL-96M with P&W engines actually flew, the IL-86 with CFMs didn't. Data about the IL-96 can be found here: htt
26 Post contains links WSOY : The IL-96 is an ICAO chapter 3 airplane, the IL-86 a chapter 2 airplane. Noise certification database: http://noisedb.stac.aviation-civile.gouv.fr/
27 Afay1 : -I didn't say it never flew, I am saying it never made it into production and the engines were removed a long time ago (in 1997 I believe). Incidenta
28 Post contains links and images LTU932 : It's an IL-96T though (which is basically the same IL-96M/-400, only built as a freighter model). Here a picture of the IL-96M/T's flightdeck, which
29 AC777LR : Having flown in one to Cuba, I would say its a pretty comfortable aircraft. I thought it would be loud but I found it quite plesent. I reminded me of
30 Afay1 : Gotcha, I had forgotten that I myself may have seen it at MAKS. I know there were some EX-IM bank difficulties and the engines and avionics were repo'
31 Post contains links and images Aviopic : This is indeed a Rockwell Collins FMP and if you compare it with this: View Large View MediumPhoto © Willem Honders You will see a "certain" sim
32 IADCA : Yeah, sorry about that, I was looking at the wrong line of the chart. I believe the point stands for the 767, although the fuel savings on twinjets m
33 Post contains links and images Airliner777 : I have to agree with you. In fact, I love this picture.. View Large View MediumPhoto © Mark Kryst Regards, Airliner777
34 Post contains images PEET7G : OK, now back to the original question Does any one have something about their operational environment? Gate compatibility, Cargo hold capacity, what t
35 A342 : Go to the link I provided in reply 25. Almost everything you want is there.
36 Superfly : When the embargo on Cuba is lifted, I hope Cubana keeps there IL-96s and fly them here to the United States. I wish Aeroflot still flew them here. The
37 Lumberton : IIRC, they just ordered 6 cargo versions. Maybe we'll see those here?
38 A342 : No, the additional order for 6 aircraft was for the pax version.
39 MotorHussy : With Aeroflot's impending order for 22 A350XWB's and the Russian investment bank's purchase of (up to) 6% of EADS combined with the consolidation of
40 Post contains links Lumberton : This says cargo.... http://www.kommersant.com/p747749/Cargo_Airlines_Fleet/
41 PEET7G : What is the delivery schedule of these planes? And are there other orders awaiting delivery? Great infos there, thanks! Now anything on the cargo sid
42 Post contains images A342 : Well, those are not ordered yet. IIRC SU recently confirmed the follow-up order for 6 pax IL-96-300, but I'm not sure. I don't know that. There are o
43 Post contains images PEET7G : Well I guess I am as dumb as I can get.... as been reading that site and saving the data... somehow it slipped my sight... guess I was looking for so
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