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JAL Pilot Allowed F/A Photo Session In Cockpit  
User currently offlineJimyvr From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 16968 times:

Japanese media reports on Monday (12MAR07), that A pilot, co-pilot and the flight attendant has received "critical warning" for taking photos in the cockpit in flight.

Incident occurred in December 2006, JL422 LHR -- KIX with 190 on board the 777. The 28 y/o flight attendant went into the cockpit and took a picture with the 45 y/o pilot when the plane was cruising at 10000m altitude over Siberia.

The flight attendant even sat on the pilot seat, touching the controlling bar as a pose when taking picture. Although the plane was on auto-pilot, but the digital camera could cause interference.

http://headlines.yahoo.co.jp/hl?a=20070312-00000022-jij-soci

53 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineMD80fanatic From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 2659 posts, RR: 10
Reply 1, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 16920 times:

Interference? That's absurd.

I sat in the same seat (727 though) and a picture was taken with a huge flash bulb (large nasty uncontained EM field was emitted) with no effects.....none that would prevent me from making this post 39 years later.

If this was against airline policy.....or against controlling authority regulations, then their warning was justified.....but to attempt to pin a modern digital camera as a possible flight safety risk....is preposterous.


User currently offlineKtachiya From Japan, joined Sep 2004, 1781 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 16865 times:

Well in the article, it says that JAL explained that the digital camera could not cause interference (well, there are 190 pax in the back and probably more than a quarter of them had digital cameras).

Well, its ridiculous for the Japanese media to bring out every single small example like this............... Do they hate JAL or something?

And it is stated that it was taken with the captain's digital camera (so if the captain decided this was safe to do, then there should have been no problem since the flight is the captain's responsibility. And the strange part is, they did this when the flight attendant came to serve drinks to the FO and the captain.

And this article? What's the big deal? Besides, these people in the media are known for their naive knowledge about aviation.



Flown on: DC-10-30, B747-200B, B747-300, B747-300SR, B747-400, B747-400D, B767-300, B777-200, B777-200ER, B777-300
User currently offlineCinJA From Singapore, joined Jan 2007, 96 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 16839 times:

English link can be found here: http://mdn.mainichi-msn.co.jp/nation...news/20070312p2a00m0na007000c.html

For those of you in the business, is this really an uncommon occurrence? Is the punishment (temporary suspension from flights) fair? I don't think this is a huge issue, but wonder how others would react?

She showed her colleagues these pics, which makes me wonder if this was an expressly forbidden situation and she just blanked or if there was pressure after the fact, seeing as how it was 3 months ago.

CinJA


User currently offlineFly727 From Mexico, joined Jul 2003, 1789 posts, RR: 19
Reply 4, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 16798 times:

Quoting MD80fanatic (Reply 1):
Interference? That's absurd.

I sat in the same seat (727 though)

Well., it's not really the same seat. Whatever a 727 was fitted with can't be compared with all the electronic stuff a 777 has...

Also, I don't see why it is absurd! If the aircraft and certain components' manufacturers plus the controlling agencies are saying that the darn devices must be turned off during flight, I see no point doing the opposite or trying to prove them wrong. We should leave the testing and regulations to those who actually know -scientifically- what they talk about.

Though I agree it sounds like an exaggeration of the media.

RM  Smile



There are no stupid questions... just stupid people!
User currently offlineJimyvr From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 16772 times:

Oops, missed translation.

But I guess the point is, at the time you have extreme circumstances of in flight security, you're not really supposed to allow anyone including flight attendant drop in to the cockpit unless it is something extraordinary.


User currently offlineJeffrySkY From Singapore, joined Feb 2004, 177 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 16764 times:

Absolutely ridiculous: firstly, the article pinpointed no reason as to why the crew were reprimanded : re: the use of digital cameras or allowing a flight attendant to sit on the captain's seat. Secondly, there was this contradictory statement mentioning that the safety of the flight was not compromised - if so, then what actually drives the reason for this punishment?

As to the point about FAs being restricted from the cockpits, that's quite contrary to safe practice. Besides the fact it is an act of courtesy to offer coffee to pilots flying the long-hauls, it is a good check to see whether the flight crew are even conscious sometimes! .. given the long hours of flying and unearthly schedules.

The only reason I can speculate is that some officials may be concerned in light of the Aeroflot A310 crash enroute to Hong Kong when the captain's son fiddled with the controls. Otherwise, it may be likely that a resident b**** onboard decided to land one of her colleagues in hot soup.

[Edited 2007-03-12 06:31:35]

User currently offlineNorcal773 From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 1439 posts, RR: 12
Reply 7, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 16764 times:

Apparently, JL, NH and most Japanese carriers do not allow digital cameras while on the ground. This is per someone here on a.net and the FA won't let me use my camera in flight last week. Heck, the Japanese make most of the digital cameras out there so maybe they know something we don't.

This story would have been complete if they showed the pic of the FA.  biggrin 



If you're going through hell, keep going
User currently offlineMD80fanatic From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 2659 posts, RR: 10
Reply 8, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 16763 times:

Quoting Fly727 (Reply 4):
We should leave the testing and regulations to those who actually know -scientifically- what they talk about.

I agree. That's why I decided to make my comment.


User currently offline777ER From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 11847 posts, RR: 18
Reply 9, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 16685 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting Fly727 (Reply 4):
Also, I don't see why it is absurd! If the aircraft and certain components' manufacturers plus the controlling agencies are saying that the darn devices must be turned off during flight

JAL who is the legal owner of the B777, said in the article, that digital cameras being used in-flight DON'T interupt with the equipment onboard, so all this fuss over the digital camera being used is pathitic

Quoting Jimyvr (Reply 5):
But I guess the point is, at the time you have extreme circumstances of in flight security, you're not really supposed to allow anyone including flight attendant drop in to the cockpit unless it is something extraordinary

The FA went into the cockpit during the meal/drink rounds


User currently offlineTG992 From New Zealand, joined Jan 2001, 2910 posts, RR: 10
Reply 10, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 16665 times:

Quoting Jimyvr (Reply 5):
But I guess the point is, at the time you have extreme circumstances of in flight security, you're not really supposed to allow anyone including flight attendant drop in to the cockpit unless it is something extraordinary.



Quoting JeffrySkY (Reply 6):
As to the point about FAs being restricted from the cockpits, that's quite contrary to safe practice. Besides the fact it is an act of courtesy to offer coffee to pilots flying the long-hauls, it is a good check to see whether the flight crew are even conscious sometimes! .. given the long hours of flying and unearthly schedules.

I can confirm JeffrySkY's remarks. At Air NZ we have procedures for regular, scheduled contact with the flight deck to ensure everything's OK up there and we're regularly going in and out of the cockpit to deliver drinks, snacks, etc. On any flight that carries only two flight crew, an f/a has to enter the cockpit whenever one crew member needs to use the toilet (or leave for any other reason) and remain there until they return.

Photos are commonly taken in the flight deck of just about every airline the world over. I've seen some beautiful photos taken by our pilots of aircraft we pass during cruise, and I"m sure the act of taking the photograph wasn't the issue - however, given the Aeroflot accident in the 1990s where the Captain's son accidentally caused the plane to crash by putting pressure on the control column, perhaps letting the f/a touch the controls while the captain was out of his seat wasn't such a wise idea.



-
User currently offlineEMBQA From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 9364 posts, RR: 11
Reply 11, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 16660 times:

I think the story is lost in translation. By ...interfearance... they mean the distraction of the camera and flash. Not an actual mechanical interfearance. If you want to pull your hair out in lost translation just read an MU-2 AMM. Some of the stuff in there will have you wondering what they really are talking about.


"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
User currently offlineAWombat From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 21 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 16612 times:

I am personally not worried about the photos irrespective of what type of camera was being used. Unless you have an old 'box browny', it is electically powered producing electical noise.

What does worry, is having the F/A sitting in the seat with their hands on the controls. This reminds me of a Russian Airbus where the pilot lets his kids 'fly' the plane into the ground. Okay this might be excessively worded but as a passenger down the back, I don't mind people taking photos but I don't want unqualified people sitting in the chair while it is flying/ This is what the ground is for. 'Augering In' from that altitude don't not hurt..  Wink


User currently offlineAirWillie6475 From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 2448 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 16554 times:

Quoting Jimyvr (Thread starter):
Japanese media reports on Monday (12MAR07), that A pilot, co-pilot and the flight attendant has received "critical warning" for taking photos in the cockpit in flight.

Minus the F/A, this happens every day in cockpits around the world. Don't really know why it's such a big deal. I guess the fact that FA sat was probably unnecessary but not a big deal, what could she do?


User currently offlineIAirAllie From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 16487 times:

Quoting Jimyvr (Reply 5):
But I guess the point is, at the time you have extreme circumstances of in flight security, you're not really supposed to allow anyone including flight attendant drop in to the cockpit unless it is something extraordinary

That is so far from the truth. Pilots strictly speaking are the ones with the restrictions. They technically aren't supposed to leave the flight deck inflight unless it is for physiological needs, faa speak for potty breaks. FA's are encouraged to check in regularly with the cockpit see if they need anything to drink make sure everyone is allright. Pilots also encourage visits on long (especially night flights) to break the monotony.


User currently offlineGh123 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 16331 times:

What a load of crap - I've got a picture of me when I was about 3 or 4 years old in the captain's seat of a British Airways 747 when I was on the way to Barbados.

Paranoia, if you ask me......


User currently offlineCosmicCruiser From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2254 posts, RR: 16
Reply 16, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 15754 times:

Quoting Ktachiya (Reply 2):
these people in the media are known for their naive knowledge about aviation.

That's a true statement.

Quoting MD80fanatic (Reply 1):
What's the big deal?



Quoting AirWillie6475 (Reply 13):
I guess the fact that FA sat was probably unnecessary but not a big deal, what could she do?

Not knowing JALs policies I can only comment regarding my co. NO ONE is allowed in either front seat unless they are a qualified part of the flight crew. It even means the S/O (on 3 man jets) will not sit in the front seats. The rational being that there is no chance of something stupid happening when someone is pre-occupied with "entertaining". There was a time many moons ago when the S/O may get a little "stick time" but no longer. Did it hurt anything? Probably not. Unfortunately I've seen over the years that it's the 5% that ruin it for the rest by going one step further and having a problem. So policy is changed for the stricter. Yes we all take pictures but of course there's the right time for it. I know of a J/S that snapped a flash photo over the capt. shoulder just as the runway came into view on a CATII app. Not good.

Quoting Gh123 (Reply 15):
I've got a picture of me when I was about 3 or 4 years old in the captain's seat

Yep, that was then and this is now. When I was about 5 yr. I had an aunt that worked for Delta C & S (Chicago & Southern) and was going to take me on a trip and the capt said I "could help fly".


User currently offline474218 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6340 posts, RR: 9
Reply 17, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 15685 times:

Quoting Jimyvr (Thread starter):

The flight attendant even sat on the pilot seat, touching the controlling bar as a pose when taking picture.

Please explain: did the flight attendant sit ON or IN the pilots seat and what is a pilots "controlling bar"?


User currently offlineAirTran717 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 746 posts, RR: 4
Reply 18, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 12880 times:

Quoting Ktachiya (Reply 2):
And it is stated that it was taken with the captain's digital camera (so if the captain decided this was safe to do, then there should have been no problem since the flight is the captain's responsibility.

I can't speak for foreign carriers, but it is most definitely against FAR's here in the US. During flight, NO ONE but flight crew... in other words, the pilots... may occupy a pilot seat. Photo opps are fine on the ground, and at the gate. I agree the camera would not create interference. I have taken many a photo up there myself when sitting on the jumpseat. But the flight attendant should not sit in the pilot seat during flight.

717


User currently offlineJimyvr From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 12795 times:

Quoting 474218 (Reply 17):
Please explain: did the flight attendant sit ON or IN the pilots seat and what is a pilots "controlling bar"?

Give me a break for forgetting what's that called  Embarrassment


User currently offlineMorvious From Netherlands, joined Feb 2005, 705 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 12764 times:

Offcourse a camera won't intterupt systems in the cockpit but I can understand why they are warned.

3 people were not doing the job they were hired for, and that would give me a warning to if I did it. Not really news worthy if you ask me though.



have a good day, Stefan van Hierden
User currently offlineAirTran717 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 746 posts, RR: 4
Reply 21, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 12764 times:

Quoting Gh123 (Reply 15):
What a load of crap - I've got a picture of me when I was about 3 or 4 years old in the captain's seat of a British Airways 747 when I was on the way to Barbados.

While I don't know your age. This was obviously pre-9/11. This is not 1977 anymore. Security has gotten tighter, as it should have. Unless you are a trained, certified crew member, the only time you should be allowed in the cockpit is on the ground, at the gate.

717


User currently offlineBA787 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2006, 2596 posts, RR: 7
Reply 22, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 12724 times:

So I'm guessing all the A.net uploaders who get a picture while at cruising, (some of which are really amazing, especially the night time ones), especially the pilots, are going to get a slapped wrist from now on. I couldn't read the articel (something about language) but what sort of action wil JAL take, and is it really that major? Maybe the F/A sitting in the seat is OTT, but if the F/O is still in his seat, then it isnt really that major.

Its like the pilot going to the bathroom.

Its not as though the F/A is going to mess with anything, or be able to fly it (unlike an SU incident i remember)


User currently offlineAirTran717 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 746 posts, RR: 4
Reply 23, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 12696 times:

Quoting 474218 (Reply 17):
Please explain: did the flight attendant sit ON or IN the pilots seat and what is a pilots "controlling bar"?

ON or IN, what's the difference? She sat in the seat or she sat on the seat. It's proper either way. And the controlling bar is most likely meaning the flight yolk. Dude, figure out that there is a language barrier and words are not always translated literally. Sheesh.

717


User currently offlineBphendri From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 12552 times:

The only thing that converns me with this, is the flight attendant being allowed to touch the yoke.

Rememeber the Aeroflot crash, where the captain let his children think they where controlling the plane while the autopilot was in command mode?


25 CosmicCruiser : Co. poicy ALSO dictates how the jet will be flown regardless of what the capt. may think. Otherwise 1000 capt.s can say what they think is safe.
26 Post contains links Airfoilsguy : I agree, The people in the cockpit should behave in a professional manor and not be farting around with cameras and flight attendants. Fly the plane
27 Post contains images OlegShv : that, and it seems like Japanese media doesn't have anything else to report.
28 Post contains images Tjwgrr : Let's see the photos!!!
29 VEEREF : Actually, it still is major. It's not the matter of how many people were in their seats at the time. Not sure about the rest of the world, but in the
30 PIA777 : A digital Camera causing interference??? That is such bull. PIA777
31 Post contains images VonRichtofen : Japanese F/A..... I'd like to see these pics! Kris
32 IAirAllie : I'd really like to see that FAR. This is the first I've ever heard it in 6 years in the industry are you sure it is not a company policy. I have sat
33 Bphendri : I agree JAL has the cockpit crew dead to rights. Very poor judgement all around. The fact of the matter is, their unprofessional behavor was not actin
34 VEEREF : It's a combination of FARs. Part 61- Pilot certification, Part 91- Operating Rules, Part 25- Aircraft Type Certification and an individual company's
35 Post contains images Morvious : Well, it won't be a problem if he is in the cabin. The door will be locked so he won't be able to see the F/A in the seat right? The F/A could also b
36 N867BX : You are only here to make this post because you beat the odds and are extremely lucky to be alive.
37 CosmicCruiser : OR the F/O wants to move up a number and turns him in....It has happened before.
38 IAirAllie : In other words there is no FAR stating "During flight, NO ONE but flight crew... in other words, the pilots... may occupy a pilot seat." The FAR's you
39 Post contains images Scramjetter : Was she cute? What was she wearing?
40 VEEREF : Broad? No, there is no specific sentence in any of those regs. But you're right. Only been in aviation for 18 years and seen fellow crewmembers get v
41 Tootallsd : Have you ever boarded a commercial aircraft? Every time a pilot / copilot leaves the cockpit, an F/A enters the cockpit and remains there until he /s
42 Bellerophon : Tootallsd ...Every time a pilot / copilot leaves the cockpit, an F/A enters the cockpit and remains there until he /she sounds the all clear and reque
43 VEEREF : This is true, and it can even depend on the individual inspector. At a former airline we had a flight crew taxiing in after landing at XYZ. As they w
44 Tootallsd : Hey Bullerephon: I fly several times a week. I have the good luck to sit in First Class on most flights. I'm only telling you what I see over and over
45 Baron52ta : You are talking pre 911 days when you could visit the flight deck . As to the question of photos on the flight, there are many pics on this site take
46 IAirAllie : But have you ever seen a Flight Attendant violated by the FAA (again maybe your company policy is more restrictive) for sitting in a pilots seat duri
47 Malaysia : Also I got photos of me in the jumpseat and F/O seat of a MH 747 on approach to ironically NRT in the 90s. Big Deal. But I wish I had a digital camera
48 CosmicCruiser : Ladies and gentlemen, The bottom line here is co. policy. You can sit here a post and post about whether it was safe or unsafe or ok or stupid but if
49 Sketty222 : I think that the whole issue here is the fact that the FA was sitting in the pilots seat and not the digital camera. Im with you 100% on this one Lee
50 VEEREF : There are alot of things I haven't seen. And quite a bit that I have seen. Getting back to the original post, apparently at JAL it is. Again, I was a
51 IAirAllie : It does when people are stating it is against FAR's and that It is not permitted at any airline in the US, because it isn't true. It falsely implies
52 AirTran717 : FAR or not, does it sound like you need to sit in the pilot seat? Every cockpit has at least one jumpseat and I have occupied that seat for my time u
53 Post contains images Bellerophon : Tootallsd ...So if you're saying that I'm a liar, be clear about it... Calm down, I didn't call you a liar, nor did I intend to. Rest assured, should
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