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DTW-TLV  
User currently offlineJhiller From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 16 posts, RR: 0
Posted (7 years 1 month 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 4064 times:

When I was in Israel two weeks ago one of the TLV airport managers told me that NWA was going to begin a nonstop from DTW to TLV. Could that be true ?
Jim

57 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineLHUSA From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 560 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (7 years 1 month 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 4054 times:

I wonder if thier A330-200's can make it that far. I don't think they would do the route with a 744. I think it would be a pretty strong route though.

User currently offlineJhiller From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 16 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (7 years 1 month 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 4042 times:

I wondered if this might be a future 787 route ? That might make the most sense.
Jim


User currently offlineCOERJ145 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1421 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (7 years 1 month 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 4026 times:

Quoting LHUSA (Reply 1):
I wonder if thier A330-200's can make it that far. I don't think they would do the route with a 744. I think it would be a pretty strong route though.

Its well within the A332's range, and even the A333 could do it, but westbound would be a challenge with headwinds and all.


User currently onlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7343 posts, RR: 28
Reply 4, posted (7 years 1 month 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 3981 times:

Highly, highly doubtful.

Just doesn't seem to be a market that NW would enter, considering that DTW doesn't have the mega O&D that is found places like ORD & JFK/EWR, or the ATL mega-hub.

The A330's are way too big capacity-wise for such a route, regardless of performance.

787's maybe, but NW is going to use those for Asia first and foremost. You would see 787 flights to Asia & India first before NW ventures into the Middle East. Its possible although unlikely, at least several years out.


User currently offlineJetjack74 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 7386 posts, RR: 51
Reply 5, posted (7 years 1 month 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 3925 times:
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Quoting Jhiller (Thread starter):
When I was in Israel two weeks ago one of the TLV airport managers told me that NWA was going to begin a nonstop from DTW to TLV. Could that be true ?

That's a new one.

Quoting DTW.SCE" class=quote target=_blank>PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 4):
Highly, highly doubtful.



Quoting DTW.SCE" class=quote target=_blank>PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 4):
787's maybe, but NW is going to use those for Asia first and foremost. You would see 787 flights to Asia & India first before NW ventures into the Middle East. Its possible although unlikely, at least several years out.

Maybe 757's from out of AMS might work. I could see that.



Made from jets!
User currently onlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7343 posts, RR: 28
Reply 6, posted (7 years 1 month 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 3884 times:

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 5):
Maybe 757's from out of AMS might work. I could see that.

NW won't fly 757's beyond AMS and do intra-Europe flights, those are KLM routes. I assume KLM flies AMS-TLV which is more than suitable for the time being.


User currently offlineDiscoverCSG From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 812 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (7 years 1 month 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 3809 times:

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 4):
787's maybe, but NW is going to use those for Asia first and foremost

Isn't TLV in Asia? Big grin


User currently onlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7343 posts, RR: 28
Reply 8, posted (7 years 1 month 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 3784 times:

Technicality, smarta$$, you know what I meant, as in the Far East.

User currently offlineCba From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 4530 posts, RR: 3
Reply 9, posted (7 years 1 month 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 3738 times:

Quoting COERJ145 (Reply 3):
Its well within the A332's range, and even the A333 could do it, but westbound would be a challenge with headwinds and all

 checkmark 

This flight would really be pushing the limits of the 333, but is easily doable with the 332.

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 4):
The A330's are way too big capacity-wise for such a route, regardless of performance.

I disagree. The A332 seems like the perfect-sized airplane to start this route. It's got the legs to make the trip work in both directions and is easier to fill than a larger aircraft.


User currently offlineJetjack74 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 7386 posts, RR: 51
Reply 10, posted (7 years 1 month 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 3664 times:
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Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 6):
NW won't fly 757's beyond AMS and do intra-Europe flights, those are KLM routes. I assume KLM flies AMS-TLV which is more than suitable for the time being.

I think, eventually the 757's will be flying beyond Europe out of AMS.



Made from jets!
User currently onlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7343 posts, RR: 28
Reply 11, posted (7 years 1 month 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 3624 times:

The A332 is still 243 seats, 34 of which are WBC, from DTW, that is a large aircraft to TLV. Not going to see it within this decade.

I completely disagree with you JetJack, not unless the NW/KLM alliance falls apart will you see NW operate anything within Europe. That would be like KLM coming in and flying routes like DTW-LAX.


User currently offlineFlyDreamliner From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2759 posts, RR: 15
Reply 12, posted (7 years 1 month 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 3594 times:

Quoting COERJ145 (Reply 3):
Quoting LHUSA (Reply 1):
I wonder if thier A330-200's can make it that far. I don't think they would do the route with a 744. I think it would be a pretty strong route though.

Its well within the A332's range, and even the A333 could do it, but westbound would be a challenge with headwinds and all.

It's 5,212nm which is really pushing what the A333 could do westbound, even way weight restricted. It's quite possibly too large for the route as well though. The A332 would be able to make that route, though, probably with a near full load westbound even. DL and CO seem to be doing very well on their TLV routes, I'm sure NW could join in.

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 4):
787's maybe, but NW is going to use those for Asia first and foremost. You would see 787 flights to Asia & India first before NW ventures into the Middle East. Its possible although unlikely, at least several years out.

The 787 would certainly perform this route well, but the A332 is really fairly similar to 787-8 in seating capacity, and A332 would fit better into NW's A330 transatlantic fleet, but it could be either or.



"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
User currently offlineJetjack74 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 7386 posts, RR: 51
Reply 13, posted (7 years 1 month 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 3535 times:
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Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 11):
I completely disagree with you JetJack,

Ok



Made from jets!
User currently offlineHjulicher From Liechtenstein, joined Feb 2005, 861 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (7 years 1 month 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 3376 times:

I actually disagree... I think that DTW-TLV is a very good flight considering that DTW does have enough of and O/D to operate this route. I'm not saying that NW will start it, but I don't think that it's out of the question as being a possible route. It's just not NW's style to start a route like that. I believe that metro-detroit has a very large Jewish population. I mean, i'm sure it's not to the size of NYC or Chicago, but I bet it's bigger than most other top 10 metro areas in the US. Anyways, I believe that DTW has the facilities and connections to offer such a flight if NW decided to start it, and it would be ideal for the A332.


LH 442
User currently offlineDtwclipper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (7 years 1 month 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 3365 times:

Quoting Hjulicher (Reply 14):
I believe that metro-detroit has a very large Jewish population

78,000 in the metro area, and shrinking.

21st largest jewish community in the US.

http://www.thisisfederation.org/downloads/MajorThemesReport.pdf

[Edited 2007-03-15 04:55:14]

User currently offlineVC10DC10 From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 1030 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (7 years 1 month 6 days ago) and read 3285 times:

O&D is vital, of course, but don't forget NW's favorite thing ever (even more than DC9s): connecting passengers! All the folks from MSP, SEA, PDX, MKE, GEG, BIL, and all those other historically NW cities will come to DTW for the run to Israel. Personally, I suspect this would work out just fine -- NW might want to start slow, with just 3 flights per week for example, and later move up to daily service.

User currently onlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7343 posts, RR: 28
Reply 17, posted (7 years 1 month 6 days ago) and read 3288 times:

Yeah, and I'll raise the same argument that happens everytime someone brings up the size of a certain ethnic population.....it is a very minimal factor in determing the demand for a specific route. How many of those 78,000 people are actually wanting to fly to TLV on a regular basis....not enough to fill an A330. I mean this is NW we are talking aboutm who won't even fly MSP-CDG yet, or restore DTW-FCO, let alone some route like DTW-TLV.

User currently offlineVC10DC10 From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 1030 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (7 years 1 month 6 days ago) and read 3274 times:

Quoting DTW.SCE" class=quote target=_blank>PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 17):

Again, connections, connections, connections... surely there are some people in the United States who live outside of any airline's hub cities who would like to travel to some of these major, world-class cities without making two enroute stops (e.g., DTW and AMS). Just a humble opinion.

Also, FCO is well-served by NW's partner Alitalia, but TLV (and much of the Middle East, for that matter), isn't well-covered by Sky Team.

[Edited 2007-03-15 05:54:33]

User currently onlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7343 posts, RR: 28
Reply 19, posted (7 years 1 month 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 3272 times:

Quoting VC10DC10 (Reply 16):
O&D is vital, of course, but don't forget NW's favorite thing ever (even more than DC9s): connecting passengers! All the folks from MSP, SEA, PDX, MKE, GEG, BIL, and all those other historically NW cities will come to DTW for the run to Israel.

Of which there is so little demand that still won't fill up 240 seats a day, or even 3 times a week.
Considering NW doesn't even fly GEG-DTW, BIL-DTW at all and doesnt' even fly PDX-DTW year round, places like this are a moot point and would require double connections.

Seriously, United doesn't even fly to TLV, and you would sure see a ORD-TLV on United, long before NW even considered a DTW-TLV.

People can easily fly KLM through AMS!!!!


User currently offlineVC10DC10 From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 1030 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (7 years 1 month 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 3245 times:

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 19):

Fair enough. Still, airlines have done crazier things.


User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5214 posts, RR: 7
Reply 21, posted (7 years 1 month 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 3236 times:

Quoting VC10DC10 (Reply 16):
O&D is vital, of course, but don't forget NW's favorite thing ever (even more than DC9s): connecting passengers!

I've read in the local paper that 8% of Washington's Jewish population makes a trip to Israel each year. I have no idea if you can use that number for Detroit's 78,000 or for MKE, MSP, SEA etc.



Consilivm: Cave ne nothi te vexant
User currently offlineVC10DC10 From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 1030 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (7 years 1 month 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 3229 times:

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 21):

Is that Washington State or Washington, D.C.?


User currently offlineEI A330-200 From Sweden, joined Apr 2001, 409 posts, RR: 5
Reply 23, posted (7 years 1 month 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 3219 times:

One thing that most people are forgetting is that DTW holds a large Palestinian population. TLV would be the ideal airport for these passengers. They could also offer connecting traffic if they partner with LY.


Long live Aer Lingus, the Flying Shamrock!
User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5214 posts, RR: 7
Reply 24, posted (7 years 1 month 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 3203 times:

Quoting VC10DC10 (Reply 22):
Is that Washington State or Washington, D.C.?

D. C.



Consilivm: Cave ne nothi te vexant
25 RJpieces : If that percentage is accurate, which I doubt, it probably represents VFR traffic and not the high-end business traffic that makes any route to Israe
26 Post contains images VC10DC10 : Or, for that matter, provide LY with some competition to the Midwest and Western states (though I'm guessing from your username that you wouldn't wel
27 Lemurs : The connections thing is key. There may not be a huge community in Detroit (although it's not small)...but there are lots of smaller communities in th
28 VC10DC10 : I'm with you 100%.
29 Lemurs : Don't doubt it too much, and don't entirely disassociate VFR from business. In typical Jewish communities, trips to Israel are often a strange combin
30 Dutchjet : Consider the following: 1. Detroit is not the greatest of transatlantic gateways due to geographical position and O&D traffic potential.....for years,
31 Lemurs : Because, at least when you enter into the religous aspect of judaism (espcially orthodox), there is a much stronger attachment to Israel that in othe
32 Dutchjet : Agreed, 100%.........I think that you mis-took what I was saying.......my point is that there is far more to the TLV bound traffic than Jewish people
33 Post contains images Lemurs : Ah gotcha, you're right that I didn't get where you were going...makes more sense now. The Europe part isn't such a surprise for me. There aren't man
34 Amirs : TLV isnt well covered? CO fly 2x daily to TLV from EWR DL flies daily to TLV from ATL and codeshares on the El Al NYC - TLV flights. AF has 2 daily f
35 Amirs : BTW - Chance of a DTW - TLV flight on NW is like the possibilty of a PHL - TLV on US. I am surprised UA or AA are not trying to operate ORD - TLV now
36 IAD380 : Although I would like NW to fly from DTW to TLV, I think this route would be a very big gamble for the airline. ORD, rather than DTW, seems a better c
37 Amirs : You cannot simply say that ORD was not sucessful. It was not successful for LY for many reasons. LY's flights were not nonstop to TLV , they were via
38 Airplanetire : DTW-TLV might be a longshot, but let me throw a few things out there: 1) KLM via AMS is a very bad option. I just recently booked a ticket to TLV from
39 Post contains images RJpieces : There should be a disclaimer saying the above in every A.net thread regarding service to Israel. Of course, but this doesn't translate into an econom
40 IAD380 : OK. What you say makes sense. However, which American airline is likely to fill the void that LY left at ORD? I doubt that AA or UA will inaugurate f
41 Amirs : BTW - Does the labor dispute that AA has with the TWA employyes, affect AA in other countries? I sthat the reason why AA doesnt fly to too many destin
42 Bobnwa : I don't think that is true. I would say the domestic connection possibilities would be about the same.
43 IAD380 : Then, why are surprised that AA does not jump at the chance to fly from ORD to TLV?
44 PSU.DTW.SCE : For domestic connections, DTW & ORD are pretty much even. ORD offers better connections to the West Coast and more frequencies in some instances. DTW
45 LAXdude1023 : Simple, It wouldnt. The local population and the connections are not high enough. Wont happen. I think that TLV is covered very well. IAH TLV would b
46 DiscoverCSG : CO's service to TLV is a bit of a special case. Without considering demographics, you might think the twice-daily EWR-TLV flights rely on connecting
47 Nwa744tpa : Fares to Israel are quite high from the USA, same goes for India-US, so I don't see why NW wouldn't want to start nonstop flights to either locale. Fl
48 Klwright69 : [ Maybe CO could add a third EWR-TLV flight to serve the strong local market in addition to serving connecting passenger.
49 LAXdude1023 : I really think CO shouldnt fight Geography and the local market. Adding a 3rd EWR-TLV would be better than IAH. The local market really isnt there an
50 Dutchjet : From what I hear, CO has no plans to offer a third EWR-TLV flight and has no plans to offer a IAH-TLV nonstop in the foreseeable future.....the two d
51 IAD380 : A few months ago, several Israeli newspapers reported that Continental's CEO publicly stated that the airline would add more flights to TLV by 2009,
52 Dutchjet : CO's CEO said that CO was STUDYING adding more flights to TLV and these remarks were made at an event in TLV.....it was the standard answer to a stan
53 Klwright69 : I don't agree. No offense, but I tire of posts like this. Connnections are not the "key" thing. Imagine all the connections, blah, blah, blah, blah.
54 Post contains links MasseyBrown : As shown in another thread, it may be worth noting that Cleveland apparently has a slightly larger Jewish population than Detroit. 81,500 for CLE acc
55 RJpieces : We've been over this countless times. How many of CLE's 81,500 Jews travel to Israel regularly? BOS has 90 passengers a day flying to Israel; I am su
56 Dutchjet : Funny.
57 MasseyBrown : 8%?
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