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True 757 And 762 Replacements  
User currently offlineAmirs From Israel, joined Dec 2003, 1333 posts, RR: 4
Posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 3826 times:

I was wondering why there is noe replacement for the 757 and the 762. It seems there will be a huge gap between the 739 and the 788.
The 739ER will be able to carry 180 pax 3,200 nautical miles (5,925 km) - two-class layout, 2 aux. tanks.
The 788 will carry around 230 pax over 8000 nm.

1. There is no a/c for 180 - 230 pax range. Like the 752/3 and the 762.
2. There is no a/c that can carry less than 230 pax a distance more than 3,200 nm. This was one of the strongest points of the 757 and the 762.
757ER fly for many airlines across the atlantic.
There are many a/c that flew the 762 to far distances (examples down below):

What is weird is that Airbus will have an even bigger gap between the A321 and the A358. (Even now the A330 is bigger than the 762)


So what the answer? I take it it will not be addressed until 737/320 replacement. Maybe when the 737 replacement arrives they need to start with the larger variant and then go down.
First something to trruly replace the 757 and then go down to 737 replacemnts.







Taken from " Longest 767-200ER Flight " post
BFI-NBO, by Boeing, 7834nm (Discontinued)
GRR-SEZ, by Air Seychelles, 7723nm (Discontinued)
YHZ-MRU, by Air Mauritius, 7575nm (Discontinued)
http://www.boeing.com/commercial/767family/pf/pf_milestones.html
TLV-MIA, by El Al, 5738nm Ding ding! We have a new winner!
CPH-GRU, by SAS, 5606nm (discontinued)
SWF-JED, 5516nm, (unscheduled)
CPH-SIN, by SAS, 5383nm (discontinued)
TLV-ORD, by El Al, 5370nm, (discontinued)
CPH-BKK, by SAS, 5353nm (discontinued)
GRU-FRA, by Varig, 5277nm (discontinued)
TLV-ADW by El Al, 5114 (flown 2-3 times a year for the Israeli P.M.)
GRU-LHR, by Varig, 5095nm (discontinued)
WAW-SIN, by LOT, 5083nm (discontinued)
TLV-YYZ, by El Al, 5030nm
MEX-CDG, by AeroMexico, 5005nm
TLV-JFK by El Al, 4934nm (now only 777 and 744 fly the route)
TLV-BKK, by El Al, 4918 nm
BOG-FRA, by Avianca, 4907nm (discontinued)
MEX-MAD, by AeroMexico, 4903nm
MRU-SYD, by Air Mauritius, 4902nm (discontinued)
MRU-GVA, by Air Mauritius, 4872nm
MRU-ZRH, by Air Mauritius, 4849nm
TLV-YUL by El Al, 4764 nm (discountinued)
MTY-MAD, by AeroMexico, 4704nm
BOG-CDG, by Avianca, 4668nm (discontinued)
MRU-VIE, by Air Mauritius, 4657nm (discontinued)
BOG-LHR, by Avianca, 4575nm (discontinued)
CLO-MAD, by Avianca 4484nm
BUD-BKK, by Malev, 4447nm
TLV-HKG by El Al, 4435nm
IAH-EZE, by Continental, 4400nm
BOG-MAD, by Avianca, 4388nm
SOF-BKK, by Balkan, 4284nm (discontinued)
MRU-HKG, by Air Mauritius, 4171nm (discontinued)
EWR-GRU, by Continental, 4134nm
MEX-GRU, by AeroMexico, 4008nm

43 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDiscoverCSG From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 833 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 3810 times:

Well, at first glance that does seem a bit odd.

On the other hand, I think the 757 and 767 will be around (in service, rather than in production), for a few more years before there's widespread demand for a replacement.

On the other other hand, there have been a couple of threads recently talking about Boeing's long-term plans for new models. Basically, it sounds like there might be two cross-sections (one single-aisle, one twin-aisle) to cover planes the size of E190 though 757-300, more or less.


User currently offline1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6570 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 3803 times:

The 737RS will likely include a true 757-200 replacement. As for a 757-300/767-200 replacement, that market is quite small, and may not be worth Boeing investing in. The 757-300 was a flop, and after the release of the 767-300ER, sales of the 767-200 slowed down.


The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlineAmirs From Israel, joined Dec 2003, 1333 posts, RR: 4
Reply 3, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 3759 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 2):
As for a 757-300/767-200 replacement, that market is quite small, and may not be worth Boeing investing in.

There are about 1050 757 delivered and another 250 762.
That doesnt seems small market.
The question is how many of the 757 can be successfully replaced by 739?


User currently offlineBobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6489 posts, RR: 9
Reply 4, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 3751 times:

Quoting Amirs (Reply 3):
There are about 1050 757 delivered and another 250 762.

I believe he said the market for the 757-300 was small and it was.


User currently offlineAmirs From Israel, joined Dec 2003, 1333 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 3726 times:

Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 4):

I believe he said the market for the 757-300 was small and it was.

ok, but still no real replacement for 752.


User currently offlineSkibum9 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 1229 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 3687 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 2):
The 757-300 was a flop

The 757-300 was not a flop. It was released too late in the life of the 757. Carrier demand for the 757 diminished to a point where Boeing shut down the line, thus killing the 757-200 and 300. That does not mean it was a flop. The carriers who have the 300, love them and wish they could get their hands on more. Jut like carriers have realized the true capabilities of the 757-200 and wish they could get a hold of more. So the 757-300 was a victim of bad timing, as demand stopped for the 757 in general, Boeing shut the line down, and now carriers want them again. If the line were still open you would probably see 757-300s in the order list. But it was definitely not a flop.



Tailwinds!!!
User currently offline1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6570 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 3671 times:

Quoting Amirs (Reply 5):
ok, but still no real replacement for 752.

As stated, the 737RS will include a 757-200 replacement. If the 737RS is split into two families, the smaller family will probably cover all variants of the 737-600 and 737-700, while the larger familiy will cover all variants of the 737-800, 737-900, and 757-200.



The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlineAmirs From Israel, joined Dec 2003, 1333 posts, RR: 4
Reply 8, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 3654 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 7):

As stated, the 737RS will include a 757-200 replacement. If the 737RS is split into two families, the smaller family will probably cover all variants of the 737-600 and 737-700, while the larger familiy will cover all variants of the 737-800, 737-900, and 757-200.

This is all speculation, de facto there is no a/c that is currently offered to replace it.
Even is the737RS will replace it, as I guessed in my original post, it will be many many years ......
Probably not for another 8 years.


User currently offlineBobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6489 posts, RR: 9
Reply 9, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 3561 times:

Quoting Skibum9 (Reply 6):
If the line were still open you would probably see 757-300s in the order list. But it was definitely not a flop.

You don't consider Boeing only selling about 30-35 of them total, a financial flop for Boeing?


User currently offlineVC10DC10 From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 1036 posts, RR: 3
Reply 10, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 3514 times:

Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 9):
Boeing only selling about 30-35 of them total

Actually 55 of them, all still in service.


User currently offlineYellowstone From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 3071 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 3480 times:

Quoting Amirs (Reply 8):
Probably not for another 8 years.

Rumor has it that it should be around 2-3 years sooner than that. The question, I think, becomes whether they start with Y0.75 or Y1.25. If they start with the smaller one, then yes, the 757 replacement is further off, maybe more like the 8 year time frame you mention.



Hydrogen is an odorless, colorless gas which, given enough time, turns into people.
User currently offlineBmacleod From Canada, joined Aug 2001, 2305 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 3470 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 2):
As for a 757-300/767-200 replacement, that market is quite small, and may not be worth Boeing investing in.

Unless Boeing sees a market for a shortened 787, the 787-7 could replace the 767-200. It would probably look like a A310, but with the 787 nose and tail. As far as the 757-300, we'll just see how far the 737 can be stretched..... stretch 



The engine is the heart of an airplane, but the pilot is its soul.
User currently offlineAmirs From Israel, joined Dec 2003, 1333 posts, RR: 4
Reply 13, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 3391 times:

Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 11):
Rumor has it that it should be around 2-3 years sooner than that. The question, I think, becomes whether they start with Y0.75 or Y1.25. If they start with the smaller one, then yes, the 757 replacement is further off, maybe more like the 8 year time frame you mention

I take it from your nick, you have a lot of interest in the Y1-3 projects.
I think cnahces are they will be interested in starting with Y1.25


User currently offlineBobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6489 posts, RR: 9
Reply 14, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 3387 times:

Quoting VC10DC10 (Reply 10):
Actually 55 of them, all still in service.

Still sounds like a financial flop for Boeing.


User currently offlineBoeingmd82 From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 239 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 3328 times:

Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 14):
Still sounds like a financial flop for Boeing.

55 more 757s, small development costs, new customers for Boeing products (ATA, Northwest) sounds like a good deal to me.


User currently offlineBobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6489 posts, RR: 9
Reply 16, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 3288 times:

Quoting Boeingmd82 (Reply 15):
55 more 757s, small development costs, new customers for Boeing products (ATA, Northwest) sounds like a good deal to me.

Northwest, new customer for Boeing products? B377, B720, B707, B727, B747, B752. Sounds like an old regular customer to me. Still think the 753 was a money loser for Boeing.


User currently offlineBoeingmd82 From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 239 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 3250 times:

Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 16):
Northwest, new customer for Boeing products? B377, B720, B707, B727, B747, B752. Sounds like an old regular customer to me. Still think the 753 was a money loser for Boeing.

True, but NW did choose the 753 for their DC-10 replacement for many routes when they could have gone all Airbus, the DC-10 application is business that Boeing did not have with NW before the 753. Would NW choose another Boeing product if the 753 did not exist? Who knows. Unless someone from Boeing would like to tell us if the 753 was profitable or not, we're just speculating. Let's see, what is this thread about again?  Smile


User currently offlineMCOflyer From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 8683 posts, RR: 16
Reply 18, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 3228 times:

Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 16):

Bobnwa,

Add the 787 in there.

NW loves its Boeing products the 753 suits them just perfectly for the routes they fly it on.

MCOflyer



Never be afraid to stand up for who you are.
User currently offlineSkibum9 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 1229 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 3143 times:

Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 9):
You don't consider Boeing only selling about 30-35 of them total, a financial flop for Boeing?

No I don't. Now if the 757-300 was available early in the 757 program, like the 767-300 was available early in the 767 program, and it only sold 30-35 copies then you could consider it a flop. However, when you look at the orders, starting when the 757-300 was made available, to when Boeing closed the line (1998 to 2004) Boeing sold a total of 155 757s, 42 were 300s and 113 were 200s. That means the 757-300 represented 38% ot total 757 orders when it was available. How can you call that a flop?

Like I said, both the airlines and Boeing missed the boat. If Boeing offered the 757-300 ealier more frames would have been sold. If the airlines realized the full potential of the 757, in general, earlier, Boeing would not have shut the line down and more 757-300s would have been sold. But bluntly calling the 757-300 a flop is just wrong IMO. Is the 767-400 a flop? No, Boeing did not lose a penny on either of these programs as they were relatively inexpensive programs, particularly the 757-300 as it was just a basic stretch. It's not like they developed an entirely new airplane.

Now when calling a plane a flop, the A380 may fall in that category, based on it current orders, costs to develop and on-going delays. Time will tell there. If they sell enough copies to cover their costs it won't be, but if they can't, which it is looking like that may be the case, that may be a flop.

[Edited 2007-03-15 23:12:16]


Tailwinds!!!
User currently offlineVC10DC10 From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 1036 posts, RR: 3
Reply 20, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 3127 times:

Quoting Skibum9 (Reply 19):


That's a very good rebuttal. I have no idea if this chart is correct, but if so it suggests what the 757-300 might have achieved for Boeing and the airlines had it been available earlier: http://www.answers.com/topic/b757-orders-deliveries-jpg


User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 57
Reply 21, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 3102 times:

The 753 is simply an amazing airplane....an undiscovered gem that came to the market at the wrong time.

As for the issue.....both Airbus and Boeing have a rather large gap between their largest narrowbody (the 739ER or A321) and their smallest narrowbody (soon to be the 788 or A332 - the A332 is not going anywhere for the time being and may continue to be a part of the Airbus lineup even after the A350 is sorted out and introduced to service)....why? Because of the needs and demands of airlines worldwide. Consider that the 762 (and A300/A310) started off as medium haul airliners, designed to move lots of pax over short routes, eventually longer range variants of each of those types was introduced and became the more popular selling models in the family. Also consider that the 757 was originally intended as a 727 replacement with shorter range routes in mind.....the 757 evolved into one of the most versatile airplanes around. But, bottom line, most airlines prefer a minimum of 250 seats in a twin aisle arragnement for longhaul and dont want much more than 175 seats for short haul missions.......thus, the gap. Many wish that Boeing would but the 757 back into production (its not happening for many many reasons)....but the simple fact is that airlines were no longer interested in the type: airlines did innovate and have found more profitable uses for the 757 and it has become a fixture on transatlantic and some US-latin american services, but airlines are using their assets better and would not order more of the type. Boeing really did try very hard to keep the 757 line open, but sales were finished.

Over at Airbus, the A300/A310 were dropped from the model line and not replaced......Airbus offered many alternatives to the airlines to cover this segment: the A330 Lite (a very light shorter range A330 variant), the A305 (the marriage of the A330 fuselage and systems with the A300s wings), the original A350 (which has nothing to do with today's project, basically another A330 spin-off optimized for shorterhaul services)......and none of the projects generated enough interest to go beyond the discussion stage. Airlines had little interest, and many simply ordered A330s and ""misued"" them on shorter haul routes and others added A32X equipment and frequency.

With the move to multiple hub route systems, and increased frequency on shorter haul, the airlines had little need for the A300/A310/757/762.......as for long haul, most airlines seem to agree that if a route cannot be operated on a daily basis from a hub city with an airplane holding 250 passengers, the route is basically not worth flying. In some occassions, less than daily frequency is offered, and on some routes we now see 752s, but in general, for various economic reasons, smaller airplanes are not flying longhaul these days.

Thus, the replacment for the 757 and 762 is as follows:

The 739ER can fly most (but not all) routes once handled by the 757-200.
The 787-3 will indirectly replace the 757-300.
The 787-8 will indirectly replace the 762ER.

I know that the 787s are bigger than the 757/767, but the markets have changed as well.....the 787-3 moves a lot of passengers very effeciently on short to medium haul segments, just like the 753, and the 787-8 is a small widebody that can handle long thin routes, similiar to the 762ER. The successor to the 737NG will certainly offer a variant that can fly 175 passengers up to 4500-5000 miles and will be a more exact 752 replacment.

I


User currently offlineAA777223 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 1249 posts, RR: 6
Reply 22, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 3046 times:

I think if the 753 were available today, there would be scores of orders. I still think the answer to LH updating the aircraft on the FRA-LHR route would be to borrow some of the condor 753s. But what do i know?


Sic 'em bears
User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 57
Reply 23, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 3038 times:

Quoting AA777223 (Reply 22):
still think the answer to LH updating the aircraft on the FRA-LHR route would be to borrow some of the condor 753s

Actually, LH did just that quite a few years ago.....LH borrowed a Condor 753 and flew it on certain domestic German routes (such as FRA-MUC and FRA-Berlin) to test operational issues (the long single aisle set up was a concern) and to monitor customer reaction....the aircraft subbed for a LH A300 or A310 (I cant remember)....the result was that LH was impressed with the aircraft, had no problems boarding or disembarking pax with one door and a single aisle, had no problems with turn times, BUT passengers did not like the long single aisle configuration and seemed to prefer the twin aisle widebody arranagement offered by the A300 (I am not sure that if it was fair to compare the A300 in LH configuration to te 753 in Condor high density charter configuration, but thats another story).

LH never placed an order for the 753.


User currently offlineTristarfreak From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 125 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 2939 times:

i think that once the 787 is off the ground (literally  wink  ) they will do something about that either in the form of the long rumored 737 replacement in different variants i.e. the ???-1,???-2,???-3 etc. or in a completely different model but either way i think a model o fill that gap is in the near future

25 Osiris30 : I see my nomeclature for the split Y1 project is catching on LOL. (Y0.75/Y1.25) Basically yes. There will be something in Y1 to address the 757 gap t
26 Dutchjet : Thanks for quoting half of a statement......and then disagreeing with the half that you quoted.
27 Osiris30 : And thanks for the snarky sarcastic remark. I could have quoted your whole post and said the same thing. I disagree with your assessment of the 753/7
28 Cba : Doesn't cost a lot of money to install a fuselage plug into the 752. The 753 project likely had a very low break-even number, and I'd bet that 55 is
29 Dutchjet : True..........but Boeing did hope to sell far more than 55 examples of the 753; the 753 was not the success that it should have been due to the fact
30 Post contains images Osiris30 : Alright, forgotten. Just came across as you nitpicking the posting style rather than the content. Call it a pet peeve of mine (seen too many people a
31 Dutchjet : Did you mean the 747SR..... It will be interesting to see if the 783 gains a market outside of the Japanese domestic sector. Intially I never thought
32 Post contains images Osiris30 : Ya.. I did.. LOL.. You know the one they built to haul gobs of people 5 miles in Japan I do think the 783 will have *some* success in certain markets
33 Post contains images Cba : Correct. It was expected to do a lot better than it did; it's timing was wrong. However, the few airlines that do operate the aircraft seem to love t
34 Curticool : They Wont Replace It For 10 Years Or More Beacause Of Its Major Sucsess
35 Planemaker : It is a "small" market when you put the sales environment at the time into context. The vast majority... over approx. 90% of 757 flights. The 739ER.
36 Amirs : The 739ER cannot replace an aircraft that flies farther (by more than 700 nm ) and carries more people more comfortably.
37 Dutchjet : But the 739ER can replace the 752 on 90% of the missions that it flies........at lower costs. Thus the 739ER is defacto successor from Boeing for the
38 Amirs : Then how come it always feels tighter in a 737? I always fell more comfortable in a 757. Not just because of the seat pitch.
39 Geo772 : At the smaller end of the market I see the natural replacements as the 737-900ER for the shorter routes, and the 737-700ER for the very thin long rout
40 Dutchjet : Dont know......could be the interior design scheme (different types of side panels, bins and lighting can create a different atrmosphere on an airpla
41 Amirs : I was not just a pax, I worked as a f/a for a few years. It was always crammed working in the 737's. It seemed like the galleys were always tight and
42 Dutchjet : The 737s you worked on probably did have smaller galleys than the 757.....thats possible, galleys are an airline specific item. As for the rest, I do
43 Geo772 : having just looked up the internal cabin dimensions on Boeing's site, the internal cabin width is the same on both aircraft as previously said. Howev
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