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Udvar-Hazy: Ilfc To Eventually Acquire 100+ 787s  
User currently offline2wingtips From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (7 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 11314 times:

Been a while since we've heard from SUH, but here is an interesting article:

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...ngaerospace/2003623561_hazy18.html

Talks about eventual 787 requirement, the renegotiation of the 350 contract and Airbus' financial woes and what he would do.

The clear underlining implication here is that SUH and ILFC see a clear need for many 787s, indicating it's in demand and priced right for the market. There is still an air of cloudiness over what ILFC will do with the A350 and they have to renegotiate the XWB contract at the ole A350 price.

104 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineKaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12398 posts, RR: 37
Reply 1, posted (7 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 11265 times:

Interesting article; it talks of 24 787s ordered, but only 22 publicly announced. What happened to the other two?

User currently offlineSangas From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (7 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 11265 times:

From the Seattle Times article linked by the threadstarter:

Quote:
...The re-negotiation of the A350 contract with ILFC is vital to Airbus.

The jet won't be taken seriously if Hazy doesn't buy the new model. It cannot win enough orders without his sales team drawing in airlines that don't have the cash to buy outright — he says Airbus is counting on ILFC to bring in 12 to 15 new airlines to fly the A350.

"We are the largest owner of wide-bodies between 200 and 350 seats, by far. And we're a major marketer of that category of jet," Hazy said. "They absolutely have to have us."

The sticking points are the price — "obviously, we have to keep the price [unchanged], otherwise we just say forget it," Hazy said — the new delivery schedule, and the clauses that account for inflation before delivery.

"Their target is to get it wrapped up by the Paris Air Show [in June] so they can tell the world, 'OK, we made peace with ILFC and it's firmly on board the A350,' " Hazy said, "Then we can go out and sign leases with airlines."

Hazy says he is sure they'll come to an agreement, but noted, "It's in their interest to get it wrapped up sooner" rather than later.

"Otherwise some of these airlines may be tempted to go with the 787..."

No hint from Mr. U-H that he has any qualms about Airbus' composite panel/shell design approach. Geoff Thomas reported in ATWonline in January that certain customers were insisting upon monolithic composite barrel construction, apparently Mr. U-H isn't among them.

[Edited 2007-03-18 12:01:25]

User currently offline2wingtips From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (7 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 11242 times:

Quoting Sangas (Reply 2):
No hint from Mr. U-H that he has any qualms about Airbus' composite panel/shell design approach. Geoff Thomas reported in ATWonline in January that certain customers were insisting upon monolithic composite barrel construction, apparently Mr. U-H isn't among them.

No mention doesn't mean he doesn't have reservations and they can always use contract issues as an out clause.
I think ILFC will stick to the 350, but they will eventually order many more 787s than 350s. Time will tell.


User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 24971 posts, RR: 85
Reply 4, posted (7 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 11244 times:
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I'm still confused by this modern tactic of negotiating through the press.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineRichardPrice From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (7 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 11228 times:

Quoting Sangas (Reply 2):
The sticking points are the price — "obviously, we have to keep the price [unchanged], otherwise we just say forget it," Hazy said — the new delivery schedule, and the clauses that account for inflation before delivery.

So he wanted the A350 design changed in a fundamental way, very publically, and now he wants to reap the reward of that design change but not pay the extra?


User currently offline2wingtips From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (7 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 11182 times:

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 5):
So he wanted the A350 design changed in a fundamental way, very publically, and now he wants to reap the reward of that design change but not pay the extra?

Well Finnair have come out publicly and said they negotiated the old 350 pricetag for the XWB order, so aren't ILFC and all other original 350 orderers going to do the same. I think even Airbus admits this will be the case. Gets the XWB off to a very expensive start.


User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 24971 posts, RR: 85
Reply 7, posted (7 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 11179 times:
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Quoting 2wingtips (Reply 6):
I think even Airbus admits this will be the case.

If they have, then what is Mr. Udvar-Hazy's point in going public?

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinePEET7G From Hungary, joined Jan 2007, 695 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (7 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 11115 times:

Quoting Mariner (Reply 7):
If they have, then what is Mr. Udvar-Hazy's point in going public?

He is a Hungarian after all, he needs the shine and pride that shows everyone how important and big he is.... Big grin



Peet7G
User currently offlineRheinbote From Germany, joined May 2006, 1968 posts, RR: 52
Reply 9, posted (7 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 11050 times:

SUH puts his finger right to the spot
The sticking points are the price — "obviously, we have to keep the price [unchanged], otherwise we just say forget it," Hazy said — the new delivery schedule, and the clauses that account for inflation before delivery.

While there's constant bickering on A.net about seat comfort, payload-range and CASM, a major difference between the 787 and the 350XWB is in the price-tag, and presumably in cost of ownership as well. Even A350 Mk.I was already more expensive than the 787 in list prices, while I hear that street prices where consistently lower. Mind you, there has to be a business case not only for the airline, but for the OEM as well.

The offensive approach? To leapfrog ahead with technology. "To make such a progressive step in this new replacement airplane that no one can match it," Hazy said.

Like single-piece CFRP barrels and bleed-less systems? Or a level of design/manufacturing/support integration not even matched by the nearest incumbent player? Or very short development cycle times that allow to outmaneuver the competition in time-to-market?

"no one can match it"...is he referring to the 787? I'd love to know SUH's assessment of Power8...


User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 10, posted (7 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 11002 times:

Quoting Rheinbote (Reply 9):
While there's constant bickering on A.net about seat comfort, payload-range and CASM, a major difference between the 787 and the 350XWB is in the price-tag, and presumably in cost of ownership as well.

I've noticed an a.net tendency to downplay price as a factor--an almost indifference to deep discounting just to move the aircraft; sometimes it seems as if indirectly advocating a market share strategy. At some point, these companies must make a profit (at least om the market driven capital model!). Note SUH's recommendation to EADS to avoid more political interference by avoiding government cash injections. They are being told to avoid government assistance, yet told to discount the aircraft, "we want the original price", etc. I suspect at some level, "players" in the industry have a very good idea what an airline or lessor paid for their aircraft, and will want the same deal. Sometimes these things leak, like the Iberia deal on the A346s.

Isn't EADS on a "slippery slope" here? Given the dollar to euro imbalance, profitability "challenges", "Power 8", etc., can EADS afford to heavily discount the A350XWB?

[Edited 2007-03-18 13:24:27]


"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offlineNorcal773 From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 1446 posts, RR: 12
Reply 11, posted (7 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 10957 times:

My question is, don't you think this 'price' factor will come back to bite Airbus at some point? If a bunch of airlines buy it at a considerably low price compared to how much it's being sold for just because they had ordered the old version, don't you think 'new order' airlines will b*tch about this when they go to the negotiating table? I would, especially if it's more expensive than the 787.


If you're going through hell, keep going
User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 12, posted (7 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 10940 times:

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 10):
Isn't EADS on a "slippery slope" here?



Quoting Norcal773 (Reply 11):
don't you think this 'price' factor will come back to bite Airbus at some point?

Yes, Norcal773, I do. And by discounting the A350XWB to the original offering price of the previous version of the A350, doesn't EADS run the risk of setting a de facto price "ceiling" for the newer model?



"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offlineNorcal773 From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 1446 posts, RR: 12
Reply 13, posted (7 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 10934 times:

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 12):
doesn't EADS run the risk of setting a de facto price "ceiling" for the newer model?

Exactly my point, which is the last thing they need after the A380 debacle.



If you're going through hell, keep going
User currently offlineAstuteman From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 9946 posts, RR: 96
Reply 14, posted (7 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 10831 times:
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Quoting Lumberton (Reply 10):
Given the dollar to euro imbalance, profitability "challenges", "Power 8", etc., can EADS afford to heavily discount the A350XWB?

They've written off some E670m in 2006 against the "losses" on the first 100 frames, so as to allow "pricing normality" to resume.

Quoting Norcal773 (Reply 11):
don't you think 'new order' airlines will b*tch about this when they go to the negotiating table? I would, especially if it's more expensive than the 787.

At the end of the day, new customers will ONLY compare the price, and therefore economics of the A350XWB against its competitor, the 787.
Whatever early frames sold for will be utterly meaningless.
If they determine that it's more economic for them, they will buy it.

Regards


User currently offlineEI321 From Iraq, joined Jul 2009, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (7 years 3 months 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 10784 times:

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 5):
Quoting Sangas (Reply 2):
The sticking points are the price — "obviously, we have to keep the price [unchanged], otherwise we just say forget it," Hazy said — the new delivery schedule, and the clauses that account for inflation before delivery.


So he wanted the A350 design changed in a fundamental way, very publically, and now he wants to reap the reward of that design change but not pay the extra?

That says more about Mr UH than the old or new A350s!


User currently offlineKaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12398 posts, RR: 37
Reply 16, posted (7 years 3 months 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 10707 times:

Quoting EI321 (Reply 15):
So he wanted the A350 design changed in a fundamental way, very publically, and now he wants to reap the reward of that design change but not pay the extra?

Isn't that what all the other operators wanted - Finnair etc; ok, maybe Finnair didn't ask for the redesign, but they still got the airplane at the same cost (I think). I don't think it's unreasonable for ILFC not to want to pay any more. Ultimately, it was Airbus's choice to change the airplane design, so I don't see why ILFC should have to pay more.


User currently offlineEI321 From Iraq, joined Jul 2009, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (7 years 3 months 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 10690 times:

Quoting Kaitak (Reply 16):
Quoting EI321 (Reply 15):
So he wanted the A350 design changed in a fundamental way, very publically, and now he wants to reap the reward of that design change but not pay the extra?

Isn't that what all the other operators wanted - Finnair etc; ok, maybe Finnair didn't ask for the redesign, but they still got the airplane at the same cost (I think).

Its important to separate the ILFC order from the rest as they did not ask for a change. It was Hazy that was complaining about the old A350 but still ordered it anyway. He wants to have his cake and eat it too.


User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 18, posted (7 years 3 months 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 10613 times:

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 14):
They've written off some E670m in 2006 against the "losses" on the first 100 frames, so as to allow "pricing normality" to resume.



Quoting Astuteman (Reply 14):
At the end of the day, new customers will ONLY compare the price, and therefore economics of the A350XWB against its competitor, the 787.

In the long run, perhaps. In the short run, as Airbus tries to slow the 787 sales juggernaut, will the likes of EK want to pay more than Qatar or Finnair? "

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 14):
Whatever early frames sold for will be utterly meaningless.

"Utterly meaningless"? Yes, if EADS can can convince the customers that the aircraft will be on time and will perform
"a little bit better" as Mr. Leahy promised. In the meantime, and especially at this point in the game, I submit that the original pricing will be very much relevant, and on the tableas an issue for the short term.



"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30427 posts, RR: 84
Reply 19, posted (7 years 3 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 10573 times:
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Remember that ILFC is just the "front man" here. Udvar-Hazy doesn't care what the A350XWB looks like or is made of, provided it appeals to customers at a lease rate that makes him money. So when he comments on the A350XWB, he's speaking for his potential customers far more then for himself. I am sure he has his own ideas of what sells and what doesn't, but in the end his customers call the shots on that end, not him.

It is also in his best interests to get customers to lease the A350XWB to keep his own acquisition costs down by buying from both manufacturers. So if his customers are gravitating to the 787, instead, he needs to find a way to make the A350XWB more appealing to them. Price is one way to do that. Performance is another.

The trick is, Airbus doesn't have performance numbers to offer because they're not in a position to do so. And the 787 is mere months away from starting to prove her numbers in the real world. So price is probably the best option at the moment.


User currently offlineScbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12284 posts, RR: 47
Reply 20, posted (7 years 3 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 10538 times:
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Quoting Lumberton (Reply 18):
will the likes of EK want to pay more than Qatar or Finnair?

In fact QR are in the same boat as EK, since they never placed a firm order for the original A350. I don't think a lapsed LOI will carry the same weight as AY's firm order.

Obviously both QR and EK would like to get the A350XWB for the price of the old A350, who wouldn't? But since neither of them signed on the dotted line, they'll only get the "real" price (less suitable discount for placing rumoured orders of 80 and 100 each!)



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
User currently offlineRheinbote From Germany, joined May 2006, 1968 posts, RR: 52
Reply 21, posted (7 years 3 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 10508 times:

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 10):
I've noticed an a.net tendency to downplay price as a factor--an almost indifference to deep discounting just to move the aircraft; sometimes it seems as if indirectly advocating a market share strategy.

I think Airbus just found out that their cost structure never really allowed for the levels of discounting as sanctioned off by Leahy/Forgeard for the sake of attaining 'market leadership'. Boeing has adressed the pressure in prices with their lean efforts ongoing for years now.The threat A is facing now is a competitor aircraft that not only has an edge in performance, but is more attractive in price on top. That's why I think that something like Power8 would have been needed at A regardless of the A380 mess or a weak dollar.


User currently offlineRichardPrice From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (7 years 3 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 10463 times:

Quoting Rheinbote (Reply 21):
I think Airbus just found out that their cost structure never really allowed for the levels of discounting as sanctioned off by Leahy/Forgeard for the sake of attaining 'market leadership'.

Up until the A380 payouts last year, Airbus was turning over a healthy net profit, so I think their cost structure was entirely up to the task.


User currently offlinePoitin From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (7 years 3 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 10449 times:

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 10):
Isn't EADS on a "slippery slope" here? Given the dollar to euro imbalance, profitability "challenges", "Power 8", etc., can EADS afford to heavily discount the A350XWB?

You have nailed the real issue here, which is EADS is not a viable commercial airframe manufacturer -- too much nation pride and politics. SUH did touch upon this with is comment:

Quote:

As for Airbus' broad structural problems, as it faces political pressure and labor unrest in Europe, Hazy said he'll advise Gallois to avoid further political interference by eschewing government launch aid for the A350 and instead go with private risk-sharing partners, as Boeing has done on the 787.

Airbus has to reorganize completely into a commercial enterprise. Will that happen -- probably not.


User currently offlineOsiris30 From Barbados, joined Sep 2006, 3186 posts, RR: 26
Reply 24, posted (7 years 3 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 10400 times:

I'm always ammused when people say things like 'Well they didn't have a contract for the old price so they have to pay the new price'. The simple fact of the matter is that they don't. Furthermore if the CEOs of airlines trying to order the 350 don't try and get the best possible price they know is available they are likely in breach of their fudiciary duty and should be fired immediately.

This is business. It's not about technically right or wrong, it's about dollars and cents. The sooner people on this forum wake up to that reality the happier many of them will be. If I'm running an airline and I know Airbus has sold a product to another customer for $x, it's my JOB to try my damnedest to also get the same aircraft for $x. I'm not going to sit there and say 'Oh, well I guess since I didn't have a contract for a plane that will never be built I shouldn't ask for pricing of $x'.

Airbus made a real issue for themselves, simply out of the fact they couldn't swallow their pride long enough to cancel the 350 project and call the new jet a 370 or 360. Don't for a minute think any major airlines are going to let Airbus off the hook simply because they didn't sign a contract like Finnair. They are going to beat up Airbus on pricing as much as they can. They may not get the planes for $x, but it will certainly be less than they would have paid if a deal for $x hadn't existed.



I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
25 Rainmaker : I would add it says more about his profession. He's a trader after all. At the end of the day what matters is "buy low, sell high". And there is noth
26 Lumberton : I'd take it a step further, Osiris30. If I were negotiating, I'd be asking for "$x-$y"!
27 ZANL188 : Mr UH points out a major problem with the design, saves Airbus' bacon, and he should pay more? Airbus should pay him .....
28 EI321 : Airbus did not change the A350 solely on the comments of one customer!
29 Rheinbote : How much of that profit was from hedging contracts, and how much was from operations? Why was 'Route 06' put in place, and did it succeed?
30 Post contains images Jacobin777 : ...actually, I've been saying this about the A380, even though many A.netters state that "Airbus will do anything to get BA on board (no pun intended
31 Poitin : I agree with Rheinbote -- there is no evidence beyond what EADS says as to how much money Airbus was or was not making -- and I submit that EADS is n
32 Manni : Do you suggest that Jet Airways, who ordered 787s at the end of 2006 got them for the same price as All Nippon Airlines did in 2004? Or did ALAFCO ge
33 RichardPrice : He requested the change, and lets face it Airbus had a 100 orders for the A350 pre XWB, and another 100 to be firmed. Did he really 'save Airbus' bac
34 Post contains images Astuteman : It's without doubt an airliine CEO's job to negotiate the best possible price for his aircraft. But you only paint half the picture. Absolutely right
35 Scbriml : Of course they do. Airbus's list price for the A350XWB will the starting point for the negotiations, at which the CEO for the airline will do his job
36 ZANL188 : Apparently Airbus thinks so....... they made the changes requested....
37 Astuteman : It was suggested by Gustav Humbert that Airbus had already started down the -XWB route after losing (IIRC) the Air India order (on 9-abreast ability)
38 Atmx2000 : And they had currency hedges to damp the short term effects of the dollar returning from stratospheric heights. Bingo. Airbus also benefited from com
39 EI321 : They did spend money on the 767 to make it more competitive. But the 767-400 was still not as good as the A330-200 the it was intended to rival. Even
40 Atmx2000 : Keyword: significantly They tried to compete on the cheap.
41 Cruiser : Also, the AC order around the same time as AI hurt! They wanted to replace 767's, and didn't need the extra capacity that Airbus was offering. Robert
42 Astuteman : I believe this to be correct. FWIW, though, I also believe it was an appropriate strategy for the time. Airbus's meteoric growth would appear to conf
43 Post contains images Rheinbote : Up to the A3456, Airbus' aircraft were competitive in fuel burn and operating economics, so nobody cared about a slightly inferior structural efficie
44 EI321 : How much did it cost? I
45 Post contains links BoomBoom : Why not? He wants an A350 that matches the 787 in every way, including the price, "otherwise we just say forget it," Hazy said". If you were their mo
46 FlyDreamliner : And we wonder how he is worth 3b USD? It's smart negotiation. From his standpoint, he wants the most plane at the lowest dollars, its how you make a
47 BoomBoom : At the time of the SUH speech there was a lot of speculation that there was a power struggle within Airbus over what to do with the poorly selling A3
48 EI321 : As quickly as possible? It wont EIS until 2012! Thats a longer development cycle than the 787.
49 MCOflyer : Mr. Hazy is speaking on behalf of several customers including EI. If EI orders the A350 they'll lease through ILFC. MCOflyer
50 DAYflyer : Market forces will determine the price of any airplane. Some will negotiate it down, others not as much based upon multiple factors. The long term pop
51 EI321 : In the case of EI, I think they would have been quite happy with the old A350. The new one is ok though. They will probably lease some. I personally
52 Post contains images Astuteman : Can't possibly disagree with that! Regards
53 Post contains images Osiris30 : Nope, but I do bet they tried to get the lowest price they could, and with very public statements being made about the price Airbus is selling the 35
54 Post contains links TeamAmerica : It's not just Finnair; John Leahy stated as much last week. ( http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...echnology/2003615147_airbus13.html ) "Leahy said
55 MCOflyer : That may happen as ILFC is their main a/c lessor as they own nearly half if not all of the fleet. MCOflyer
56 Rheinbote : Hold on. If we talk about 100 aircraft, some "part of $657 million set aside" wouldn't take them very far. Honoring the original prices would require
57 Pygmalion : but Boeing has sold nearly 1000 767's, seems that they have made their money off the investment... market sets price, not Boeing and not Airbus. Airb
58 Stitch : It depends on a number of factors, I imagine. Some customers may want the A350XWB-1000, which never had an A350 equivalent so those would be negotiat
59 Shenzhen : . One thing that SUH did mention is the time/money equation. It sounds like he isn't willing to take those airplanes based on 2013 dollars, but more
60 Jfk777 : ILFC should sign up for more 787 while there are some to be had before 2014. I'm surprised ILFC didn't option 100 at the brginning, like Qantas did. Q
61 DfwRevolution : By Airbus own admission, they are significantly behind Boeing in terms of conceptual RD. That means a good deal of the A350 development cycle will ju
62 EI321 : ILFC own four of the A330s and about 40% of the A320s.
63 PolymerPlane : Wrong... While SUH "asked" for redesign, Airbus is under no obligation to redesign it. Airbus can just tell SUH to go to hell and pay us for the 18 A
64 EI321 : That will depend on whether the airlines want the aircraft, not whether ILFC want it. Theres nothing wrong about it. The guy is being an ass if he ex
65 MCOflyer : Ok, I'm just saying ILFC might have an impact on customers if they choose to order the A350 rather than the 787. MCOflyer
66 Post contains links PolymerPlane : He is not complaining about A350. He never asked for a bigger A350. This is what he said at ISTAT http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...echnology/20
67 EI321 : I agree with what your saying. Its in the interest of ILFC to get the cheapest deals in order to offer airlines lower rates. I assume that competitio
68 Mariner : Obviously. Didn't he also say that if Airbus did redeisgn the A350 "airlines would wait"? ??? mariner
69 EI321 : I thought it was Emirates who said they would wait?
70 Mariner : Could very well be. That's why the question mark. mariner
71 PolymerPlane : Yes, which has nothing to do with ILFC, and its contract on hand. My point is a contract is a contract, and airbus has an obligation to fulfil it. Re
72 Mariner : Hmmm? Isn't he now saying - or at least implying - that airlines won't wait? Reads like that to me. Which, apparently, they have said they will do -
73 NYC777 : It could one of the UFO orders for 2 787s that are listed on Boeing order book.
74 EI321 : Do you know what the cancelation clauses were? (ie what was the legal oblibation on both sides in the event of a cancelation from either side?)
75 Post contains images Jacobin777 : 2013 is going to be the earliest...I would have to say 2014 by the time all is said done (especially with the Power8 program, etc).... ....he's being
76 PolymerPlane : I came across the US contract of A350. There are penalties for contract cancellation, and there are a set of specifications of the aircrafts that nee
77 AirFrnt : Udvar-Hazy is acting in Udvar-Hazy's best interest. That includes being recognized as the pre-eminent expert on Boeing and Airbus sales (outside of A
78 Mariner : Simply that if (stress "if") he is the one - or one of the ones - that said "airlines will wait", he appears to have changed his tune. I only ask bec
79 AirFrnt : The damage caps on the A380 were about 4%. I would expect that the damage caps (which include both failed delivery dates, and planes being overweight
80 Mariner : I assumed that, but this modern tactic of negotiating through the media still confuses me. Since he believes that ILFC and Airbus will come to a deal
81 AirFrnt : The media basically acts a force multiplier. Udvar-Hazy is playing it this way so that everyone understands the clout he has.
82 N328KF : He may be worth $3bil, but he still reports to somebody. It used to be Hank Greenberg, now it's the new big dog at AIG.
83 Mariner : That's the part that I find distasteful and arrogant. Like I said, I'm old fashioned. mariner
84 Manni : But I'm not and neither are many many others. Mr. Udvar-Hazy will probably get a more actractive deal then other (not so important customers) regarde
85 Rheinbote : Aviation Week 19 March 2007, page 114 "...the biggest single contributor to the long-term financial outlook seems to be pricing pressure, something t
86 Lumberton : Kind of a bomb being lobbed at EADS IMO. Who is this "Fidler"? Is there a link yet? "Bought market share"! First time I've actually seen this in prin
87 Poitin : Basically that is what the T&Cs read before the 380 Fiasco. Now, if you want to do business with most airlines, you use their T&Cs and they are bruta
88 Lumberton : Poitin, T&Cs on what? Performance, delivery, or both? I still find this comment fascinating from Rheinbote's earlier post! [Edited 2007-03-19 17:13:3
89 Flysherwood : What part of "...we are the largest owner of widebodies in the world..." do you not understand? Of course he wants his cake and to eat it too. He doe
90 Mariner : Which at least a few of us think they should have done. mariner
91 AirFrnt : EK is asking for the 787-10 as well, and can't go both ways. And just given up the market permanently to Boeing?
92 Stitch : A mildly-refreshed A330 (with new engines, re-profiled wings, and updated materials) would have made a good interim choice until Airbus was ready to f
93 Post contains images TeamAmerica : Sorry for this belated response (work gets in the way ). This question is best left to an accountant, but I think they only need to account for the d
94 Poitin : The T&Cs under discussion are "Liquidated Damages and Cancellation." Airlines are no longer happy to sign up for a 4% limit. And they also expect to
95 AirFrnt : On a side note, ATW article today indicating that ILFC is unhappy with the latest A350 delay (now 2014) and is making noises about the A380 order (hav
96 PanAm_DC10 : After many deletions which were off topic in relation to the original post I ask that the subject matter remain, just on that, not cost over runs on t
97 AirFrnt : Boeing has got to love that development, since they have a philosophy of getting it done, even if it requires going way over budget.As far as early v
98 XT6Wagon : I think the 787 Vs A350 is currently not too interesting from a "what if" perspective. Airbus is burning all the good will it has built up in a hurry
99 JayinKitsap : What perplexes me is the current lack of specifications on the 350XWB. Have any been issued outside of any PR release? I cannot recall seeing anything
100 N328KF : A lot of the A350 Mks.III/IV orders were never firmed up (such as QR) and thus Airbus wouldn't have to deal with penalties on them.
101 Stitch : Part of the reason may be that, being a more capable product then the original A350 and now targeting the A340 and 777 replacement market, Airbus pro
102 BoomBoom : So it looks like a 2013 EIS is a pipe dream. Even 2014 is optimistic.
103 Mariner : I see that some deletions have happened which took out my response to you. I am not sure why mine were deleted, since I thought they were all on-topi
104 XT6Wagon : 2013 is possible still, but very very on the edge of whats possible for the current Airbus R&D programs. Well 2013 delivery anyway, I don't like to t
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