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Pax Died On Ba Flight  
User currently offlineMax777geek From Italy, joined Mar 2007, 538 posts, RR: 0
Posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 16634 times:

http://www.corriere.it/Primo_Piano/C..._Marzo/18/volo_accanto_morta.shtml

sorry if already posted. flight was to dehli, no other details on the italian source.

the pax died in economy and been upgraded in business with her daughter
(who was still alive but obviously desperate) the article reports a very disappointed
business pax who said "he did pay 3000 gbp to travel next to a died body",
well the upgrade did cost her more, it seems to me.

97 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineQatarA340 From Qatar, joined May 2006, 1883 posts, RR: 10
Reply 1, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 16360 times:

Poor soul, literally! At least he died closer to heaven.


لا اله الا الله محمد رسول الله
User currently offlinePhilb From Ireland, joined May 1999, 2915 posts, RR: 13
Reply 2, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 16088 times:

Quoting Max777geek (Thread starter):
the article reports a very disappointed
business pax who said "he did pay 3000 gbp to travel next to a died body",

Mindless and heartless idiot.


User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 27337 posts, RR: 60
Reply 3, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 16023 times:

More here in English but no mention of the complaining passenger.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/liv..._article_id=420484&in_page_id=1770

Very sad but they couldnt do anything else so the guy complaining should be ashamed of himself. People are so selfish these days. I suppose the same guy was sipping Moet for the rest of the flight!!!


User currently offlineFlyabunch From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 517 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 15925 times:

If I paid over $4000 for my seat and then they put a body in my row and had to put up with the family wailing for several hours and then was held on the plane for over an hour after landing by the police just in case I was a witness, I would be upset too.

I would not expect anyone to be comfortable with that arrangement. What are the various airline policies regarding death on board? I want to make sure that I do not fly the ones that say "we prop them up in a seat in first or business class and let the families join them for the remainder of the trip...and oh by the way, if you are in that section you have to stay and talk to the police and the coroner after landing".

No Thanks!

Mike


User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 27337 posts, RR: 60
Reply 5, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 15873 times:

Quoting Flyabunch (Reply 4):
If I paid over $4000 for my seat and then they put a body in my row and had to put up with the family wailing for several hours and then was held on the plane for over an hour after landing by the police just in case I was a witness, I would be upset too.

I would not expect anyone to be comfortable with that arrangement. What are the various airline policies regarding death on board? I want to make sure that I do not fly the ones that say "we prop them up in a seat in first or business class and let the families join them for the remainder of the trip...and oh by the way, if you are in that section you have to stay and talk to the police and the coroner after landing".

No Thanks!

Mike

Well i wouldnt like it either and im freaked out by dead bodies but im a grown up man and I have been brought up with certain values and I would just have to put up with it!!!! Its no ones fault. If it was your mother or father maybe you would be a bit more compassionate. I guess its a cultural thing!!!!


User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 56
Reply 6, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 15805 times:

A new approach to getting an upgrade.....passing away while inflight. Sorry, that was in poor taste.

Sad, but it happens from time to time...didnt SQ equip the A345s with a special compartment (like a morgue) in order to deal with situations such as this on the ULH flights?


User currently offlinePhilb From Ireland, joined May 1999, 2915 posts, RR: 13
Reply 7, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 15652 times:

Quoting Flyabunch (Reply 4):
If I paid over $4000 for my seat and then they put a body in my row and had to put up with the family wailing for several hours and then was held on the plane for over an hour after landing by the police just in case I was a witness, I would be upset too.

Hopefully you'll never be in the position of the deceased or the family in such circumstances.

Me, me, me, me , me!!

Have some consideration for others


User currently offlineMCOflyer From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 8691 posts, RR: 16
Reply 8, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 15640 times:

Wasn't there a thread about this incident sometime ago?

MCOflyer

[Edited 2007-03-19 02:01:31]


Never be afraid to stand up for who you are.
User currently offlineVega From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 15585 times:

I would have thought that BA as classy as they present, would have moved several passengers from other cabins to First, cleared the last seats at the far back of WT in the aircraft and put the body there out of the way of gawkers, or for 5 hours, put it in a restroom, open a scent can and block the door. It would also possibly have been easier to calm the family if the body was out of sight.Too logical I guess. This is not a matter of not feeling sorry for the dead or their family, but containing the inconvenience to the least number of passengers.

User currently offlineMKandiah From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2005, 11 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 15523 times:

Quoting Vega (Reply 9):



Quoting Vega (Reply 9):
I would have thought that BA as classy as they present, would have moved several passengers from other cabins to First, cleared the last seats at the far back of WT in the aircraft and put the body there out of the way of gawkers, or for 5 hours, put it in a restroom, open a scent can and block the door. It would also possibly have been easier to calm the family if the body was out of sight.Too logical I guess. This is not a matter of not feeling sorry for the dead or their family, but containing the inconvenience to the least number of passengers.

Just over 10 years ago my father unexpectedly died on a long haul flight.

What has to be understood is the extreme distress that everyone, including the cabin crew, are under. To their credit, they behaved with great professionalism and they had to weigh up difficult options on the spot, including coping with travelling relatives who are in shock.

I am happy to say that no one on the aeroplane was as insensitive as some of the people who contribute to this forum appear to be.


User currently offline28thguy From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 114 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 15369 times:

I really think that the corpse should have been put in the crew rest area, or locked into a lavatory or put in a F/A jump seat. Several feet away from other passengers.

Given public health concerns (to be blunt, bodily functions tend to begin a few hours after death as sphincter muscles relax, and also the person could have died of a communicable disease), I think it's HIGHLY INAPPROPRIATE for BA to have put the corpse next to somebody in first class without an appropriate "buffer" zone.


User currently offline28thguy From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 114 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 15365 times:

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 6):

I would have been concerned about health issues and wanted to get as far away from dead body as possible.


User currently offlineJkudall From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 615 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks ago) and read 15281 times:

Quoting 28thguy (Reply 12):
I would have been concerned about health issues and wanted to get as far away from dead body as possible.

What health issues? Just being in close proximity to a dead person is not going to hurt anyone. Through the nature of my profession I see, touch, and am otherwise in close proximity to people who are deceased quite often and have never become ill from one.

Any passenger who would have the audacity to complain over something like this obviously has no respect for the deceased or their loved ones. If anyone had any uneasiness over sitting next to someone who died, they can move seats.

Quoting 28thguy (Reply 11):
I really think that the corpse should have been put in the crew rest area, or locked into a lavatory or put in a F/A jump seat. Several feet away from other passengers.

Locked in a lavatory? Yeah, thats respectful.


User currently offline28thguy From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 114 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks ago) and read 15237 times:

Quoting Jkudall (Reply 13):
What health issues? Just being in close proximity to a dead person is not going to hurt anyone. Through the nature of my profession I see, touch, and am otherwise in close proximity to people who are deceased quite often and have never become ill from one.

Any passenger who would have the audacity to complain over something like this obviously has no respect for the deceased or their loved ones. If anyone had any uneasiness over sitting next to someone who died, they can move seats.

Actually, I believe that the flight was full which precluded switching seats.

If a living passenger in the next seat defecated in their pants and sat in it for 5-6 hours, you wouldn't mind at all? Let alone any concerns about diseases.

I think that these first-class passengers deserve compensation. That corpse should have been locked in a lavatory or put in crew rest area. After all, if there's nothing wrong with sitting near a dead body, why even bother moving it from coach?


User currently offlineFXramper From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 7367 posts, RR: 85
Reply 15, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks ago) and read 15226 times:
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Other carriers use different procedures. Singapore Airlines has introduced “corpse cupboards” on its Airbus 340-500 aircraft. Cabin crews use the locker if there is no empty row of seats to place a corpse.

 tombstone 


User currently offlineMarkHKG From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 960 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 15155 times:

Some carriers have a policy to place the deceased pax on a wheelchair, put on oxygen mask on them (to make them look like they are alive, but sick), wheel them to a lav and them lock them inside the lav.


Release your seat-belts and get out! Leave everything!
User currently offlineNorcal773 From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 1451 posts, RR: 12
Reply 17, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 15114 times:

It's in threads like this that I sometimes feel ashamed to be an American.  ashamed . Has anyone else realized Americans are the only ones with an issue about this?  embarrassed 

Quoting OA260 (Reply 5):
I guess its a cultural thing!!!!

No it's not. Too many people out there are just about me, myself and I.

Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 8):
Wasn't there a thread about this incident sometime ago?

Yes there was. can't seem to find it though.



If you're going through hell, keep going
User currently offlineType-Rated From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 15092 times:

Or if the passenger sitting next to the deceased isn't aware that the pax is now "gone", just leave them alone, or put a blanket on them and ask the passenger sitting next to them not to bother them as they are "sleeping" and need the rest.

But I couldn't think of a better way to go, drink in hand watching the clouds go by........


User currently offlineEK345 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 163 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 14388 times:

For all those who responded with negative comments, I would ask to put yourself in the following situation:

You are travelling with a loved one, perhaps your father, mother, brother, sister, wife, husband, and they should happen to pass away. How would you handle the situation for your deceased loved one? Provide constructive feedback, don't just throw comments out there that are so insensitive that I am left speechless at the thought that you actually believe the garbage you have written.

I'm looking forward to your responses.

Peace.

EK345

[Edited 2007-03-19 08:16:51]


"and miles to go before I sleep..."
User currently offlineCharles79 From Puerto Rico, joined Mar 2007, 1331 posts, RR: 6
Reply 20, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 13916 times:

I have performed as a guardsman in Air Force military honors at funerals, and we are always told that the respect must be given to both the deceased and the relatives/friends. I think BA performed in the most respectful manner, and by placing the body in the F cabin it's closer to the exit for easier unloading. Besides, given that his wife is still on board and probably extremely stressed, it's the quietest cabin for both to spend the last 3 hours of their live together.

I feel very sorry for the widow, congratulate the BA crew for handling a difficult situation in a very professional way, and hope that no one here has to experience something like this ever.

Charlie


User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 13878 times:

Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 8):
Wasn't there a thread about this incident sometime ago?

Similar, different death, different flight, same carrier.

RE: BA:Dead Pax Put Into First Class (by Ryanair!!! Dec 6 2006 in Civil Aviation)

Seems to me BA needs to get it's crap together with how to deal with onboard deaths.

NO, I don't want anyone dead sitting next to me . . . not in Y, not in C, not in F.

BA needs to handle this better. You'd have thought, perhaps, they'd learned the first time. Apparently, no.


User currently offlineSimong From Canada, joined Jan 2005, 103 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 13833 times:

Writing as an x-cabin crew member I ask you all to consider the following. This is not an everyday occurence. Cabin members have to suddenly deal with an issue that is more than likely *a first time event*. One that they are not any more familiar with than the rest of the passengers onboard their flight. Every situation is different depending on loads, routing, length of flight, the number of accompanying family members etc. Yes ... it may be unsettling for a *full fare Business Class* .passenger to deal with ... truth is, it is probably unsettling for just about everyone. Shit happens .... and we don't often have a choice of where or when it happens. Why would it be BA or VS or AA or SQ or any other airline out there's fault that his has happened. Its an unfortunate event that needs a solution that is obviously not going to please everyone onboard. BUT THEY HAVE TO DO SOMETHING ...... so they deal with it as best they can. Where is the compassion ?
Some of you must be the same people who swear and get pissed off if there is a major road accident and a family of five has died ........... OK so you got held up in traffic for 45 minutes ..... big F'n deal .... a family of five died ! Bet they wished that their biggest problem that day was a 45 minute delay !!!!! Think about it people..... and get a life, $10,000 bloody ticket or $299 .... we are all supposedly human.
And for those of you who suggest *specifically designated corpse areas* on A/C and all kinds of other *special features* I bet you would be the first to complain that airfares increase because of these *additions* ! Face it with some of you lot .... the airlines couldn't win for losing.

Bitch On



BA all the way !!!
User currently offlineAbleToFly From Denmark, joined Nov 2006, 118 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 13559 times:

Well, death is a natural part of life. Over the year death have been looked at as almost like a taboo? Right?
Fore sure people are different, and feels different about lying next to a dead body, but come on. It shouldn't give anyone trauma for the rest of their lives..?
I just felt free to express..  Smile

Regards.


User currently offlineRpaillard From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 13408 times:

Quoting MarkHKG (Reply 16):
Some carriers have a policy to place the deceased pax on a wheelchair, put on oxygen mask on them (to make them look like they are alive, but sick), wheel them to a lav and them lock them inside the lav

 checkmark 

Quoting Norcal773 (Reply 17):
Has anyone else realized Americans are the only ones with an issue about this?

I will also have an issue in such situation. Basically, we have airlines that screw up the plane to maximize payload. As far as things going fine, it works. But in such situation, there is no resources to handle to situation decently, either for the dead person and others passengers.

Quoting EK345 (Reply 19):
I'm looking forward to your responses

In that case, I will have no objection to have this concern handled like quoted in reply 16. I think it's really the best balance, providing the fact there is no in-plane morgue.

I do acknowledge this is a terrible situation. But honestly I do not feel selfish to ask Airlines to handle it decently for all.
I do not have the truth regarding sanitary concern, but I think 28thguy raised valid questions.

Regards,
Raphael


25 OA260 : I just hope it happens to those on here that have been making the discraceful , shameless comments and I know I shouldnt be saying that but some peop
26 Bongodog1964 : Stop listening to long standing myths; in all my years dealing with the deceased I have never ever seen the scenario you describe. Its all total balo
27 Cchan : If the dead passenger is put in a window or aisle seat next to his relative, then it is perfectly ok. But if the body is placed immediately next to an
28 Max777geek : Yes, they did. I think it is used also to bring deads instead of the cargo load. Can't remember the description, but Im pretty sure I saw a picture a
29 HZ747300 : I for one don't find the man that selfish, and I actually agree with him, if the body remained right next to him for the remainder of the flight. If
30 Philb : Seems to me that for all your experience in the army and law enforcement, you know nothing about dealing with such a situation on board an aircraft .
31 B707Stu : Condolences to those who've lost a loved one on board. I wonder what the data does show vis-a-vis frequency per carrier based on length-of-trip, regio
32 Timboflier215 : Could you imagine that?! Your with your loved one on a flight. They have just died. Instead of laying them out on a seat for you to begin the grievin
33 SRMD11 : It's allways sad if something happend like this. But why was this poor passanger transfered to business? Does it make any difference if you are dead?
34 Cyclonic : No matter what your opinion on BA, I applaud their actions. To add, i'm very disappointed with the inconsiderate and uncaring attitudes of some of the
35 BA777ER236 : I have been watching this thread with interest, and I thought I would add a perspective from a Captain who has actually had this happen. Just over two
36 ANCFlyer : Phil, I have dealt with in-flight medicals personally. The latest was a US/HP flight ANC-PHX just last October where I treated a Heart Attack victim.
37 Max777geek : You can have a different opinion, but not two and such opposite, if you want people to understand what you mean, which I did not. Anyhow, the only qu
38 Philb : No its not a death but I'm not comparing apples and oranges, the pax had acute appendicitis and may well have died, very publicly. As I was seated by
39 ANCFlyer : Because it's irrelevent. You don't leave an expired body in a pax seat in the cabin. That's my opinion. An expired body WILL expel fluids, and waste.
40 MCOflyer : Agreed. They should have put the body in lav like you said, and that way could avoid many customer complaints and compensations if they had to give o
41 CPHGuard : I just don't get this. Most here seems to think, that it was ok to move the deceased pax. What would it help the dead pax, or the passenger that was t
42 Cyclonic : My own objection to this is that the opinions expressed lacked compassion and respect for the dead and their family, as well as well as understanding
43 Max777geek : It seems to me a big difference fly sat next to somebody or behind him, expecially in business.
44 AirTran717 : I can't speak for any other carrier, but I know that FL's policy was to cover the individual with a blanket and attempt to make the deceased look mer
45 Post contains links BCAL : Well said, BA777ER236. It is all very well for us, sitting in the comfort of our armchairs at home or in the office and having had the advantage of b
46 Mika : What are you talking about? How can you possibly compare someone that shit their pants with a person actually dying and being dead? I personally woul
47 Marcus380 : A Fiend of mine is a FA at AF, she is a cabin chief, and around one year ago, she had to handle a death on the plane Immediately, the called a doctor
48 Norcal773 : I really think the best way to handle the situation is land some place and remove the body. I understand the airline doesn't wanna spend a boat-load o
49 BA777ER236 : OK, it's a fair cop! I think that you may be forgetting that I and the rest of my crew, do not deal with death on a regular basis as you apparently d
50 BCAL : Depends on very much where the aircraft is, as landing might not be possible if the flight is halfway across the Atlantic or the Pacific, and then do
51 Post contains images Raventom : If we pressume Heaven is out of this universe, he relatively didn't get any closer .
52 Post contains images COA735 : This is true. In my line of work I deal with death as well. There have been times where I had to wait for a medical examiner to arrive to a scene or
53 TheSorcerer : Wouldn't putting the body in a toilet and locking it be a better idea? Dominic
54 COA735 : This could work, but I don't think this would go over well with family members. A morgue bag is disturbing enough, putting a body on a tiolet is disr
55 Sweetiematt1 : Sad to see and sad to be a part of something like this, but this also happen to me on a CX flight from Hong Kong to LAX, Jan. of 2006. I seen everythi
56 Post contains images MEACEDAR : Excellent "speech". 110% with you.
57 Bongodog1964 : What a load of codswallop; this is my job you are talking about, and I know this to be patently untrue, With regard to some of the other suggestions;
58 AirTran717 : So, supposing you die tomorrow... would YOU want to be just stuffed in a closet or in a toilet? Where is the respect for the dead in this world? You j
59 Airfoilsguy : You mean to tell me that on a plane the size of a 747 there is not one place on the entire plane where you can store a body that is not in a public ar
60 Hotelmode : Puting a Body in the toilet is a very very bad idea. There are no restraints and it is likely the body will fall to the floor in flight/landing, with
61 Max777geek : I talk for myself, it's my personal thinking and is valid only for me. If I will die like that Id prefer to be put wherever, but I don't want other p
62 IAHAAPlatinum : I might have quoted more of the responses, but this one seems to sum up come of the concerns. True, bodily functions to begin to occur a few hours af
63 Jkudall : I will reiterate what I have already said. Just being in close proximity to someone who has died does not necessarily make them a health risk to someo
64 Post contains images EWRCabincrew : I'd like to see the tool that is going to CNN (Paul Trinder) have his ass thrown in a lav if he dies inflight. Seriously everyone, a flight is full (o
65 Jkudall : Well said.
66 Pred02 : It is a cultural issue. The American business class passenger first thinks about himself and the loss of this business class experience. Worry about
67 StarGoldLHR : I think moving the passenger to the staff area would be the most sensible thing to do. Come on.. you might go on about the morals of moving a body to
68 COA735 : I'm not sure how i offended you, but how is it untrue??
69 ANCFlyer : What I still have yet to see here, an answer to this:
70 Jkudall : Like to sit next to or be willing to? I don't think anyone would jump at the chance to sit next to a corpse, but presented with this situation and th
71 GFFgold : Well of course I wouldn't like a dead body seated next to me in an aircraft. I do, however, think that the BA crew did the best they could under the c
72 WestJetYQQ : The man shown in the English article looks to be calmly eating his food. I find that very strange. I can't stand to be anywhere near death. If I was a
73 Airfoilsguy : This is how I feel about it. I think the living should take precedence over the dead. That being said I see no reason the body could not be locked up
74 Nzrich : I have to say i find some of the peoples opinions on here appaling .. The poor guy died , the crew did there best they would of been through a lot wit
75 AirTran717 : Actually I think you have seen it. I recall one comment. But to answer your question, for the respect I have for my own family and myself, I would do
76 Post contains images Philb :
77 LTBEWR : No doubt that any death during an airline flight, especially on a long one like this one discussed here creates great difficulties and requires a care
78 Ikramerica : Quite a lot of self righteous people on these boards who have no issues about sitting next to a dead person for hours. I unfortunately can't say I'm s
79 Airfoilsguy : Nobody is advocating that they should have stuffed the body in the toilet. My question is why are the living expected to use the lavatory's but after
80 Post contains images TommyBP251b : My Pathology teacher also allways says, that a dead person is less dangerous than a living one due to the fact that the death person doesn't breath a
81 Philb : What is self righteous about being honest and not having a hang up? I don't suppose you would be too happy if someone stated that, from your remarks,
82 Philb : May I suggest that, before asking questions about something that has already been detailed, you should read the whole thread. See Reply #30
83 AirTran717 : Just as with anything else you pay money for, you do have a choice. I suggest you exercise that choice. No one asked you to fly them in the first pla
84 Stealthpilot : Well said
85 Post contains links and images BCAL : There is something that I cannot understand. If Paul Trinder (the passenger who complained about waking up and finding a corpse next to him) was sitti
86 Philb : Nice one BCAL. You've summarised and commented both succinctly and very fairly.
87 Post contains images Jkudall : The crew improvised and came up with the most logical and tactful solution if you ask me. There is no real protocol for this situation. It is indeed
88 Mika : With that reasoning i'd really like to know how you plan to bury any relative close to you. I'm pretty sure that none would. However most of us have
89 Pe@rson : Probably the food.
90 Airfoilsguy : However that person so chooses. You could have a "corpse cupboard" on the plane and use it for something else 99.9% of the time it is not needed for
91 AirTran717 : That is why you are not a flight crew member, or a cruiseship crew member, or in the military on a ship or sub. You don't just dump something somewhe
92 ACFA : I'd like to see you try to move a body downstairs, or up in the ceiling (on a 777). And putting a body in the jumpseat aint the smartest (or legal) t
93 Waleckdaddy : Here's my best solution - providing there are three or four empty seats in economy or business. The cabin crew should approach the area where the body
94 ACFA : You really think they wouldn't have moved it to an empty spot and moved passengers away if that was possible? And compensation? Give me a break. I've
95 OA260 : True Well i know where your comming from but if you pay J whatever the offer is you have the same rights as anyone else in J when it comes to service
96 AirTran717 : How do you figure? Legal offenses? What liability is there, that you think you have a legal right to? That's what this society is all about anymore..
97 Abrelosojos : I honestly cannot believe that we are discussing this situation. There is nothing more grounding than birth and death. Some of the responses remind me
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