ConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Posted (6 years 3 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 3731 times:
Sunday, 3/18/07, 6:44pm Central.
Was spotting at MSY earlier yesterday evening.
An AA S80 was lined up with MSY's runway 19, and at 6:44pm it spooled up and began its takeoff roll. About 300ft into the departure, the aircraft powered-down to complete silence. It continued to roll for at least 1 times its fuselage length while silent, but then it spooled up to power and continued the takeoff. Its mains didn't lift off until right before the threshold "keys", but it did sustain a rather exciting climbout angle.
My questions in this; does anyone know:
what flight this is and where it was going?
what may have caused it to behave in this way?
whether the FAA, AA, or other airlines have protocol for this sort of occurence?
....my guess is that he might have gotten clearance later than expected, and having begun his roll-- went back to idle, only to be given clearance at that point. After losing about 500ft of runway, I thought for sure it would break and turn off, but instead it powered up continued the (long) roll; and shot out at a very strong angle (even for an MD80) climbout angle. I guess 6500ft is still more than enough for an S80 going to DFW/STL, though it would've been interesting if this was a flight on its way to ORD/LGA.
LASOctoberB6 From Japan, joined Nov 2006, 2380 posts, RR: 1 Reply 1, posted (6 years 3 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 3694 times:
kinda makes me remember the time i was out spottin at LAS a few years ago when a Planet (<- was that the airline that bought 1983 National Airlines' logo?) S80 was cleared to go and it lined up, went into reverse, then full throttle and went all the way down the end of 25R then lifted off.....really strange....
HAL From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 2472 posts, RR: 53 Reply 2, posted (6 years 3 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 3689 times:
Quoting ConcordeBoy (Thread starter): ....my guess is that he might have gotten clearance later than expected, and having begun his roll-- went back to idle, only to be given clearance at that point.
I wouldn't say 'never', but I really can't imagine any airline pilot spooling his engines up (and rolling) until the actual clearance came through. Not only is it illegal (rolling without clearance) but stupid - you eat up that precious real estate that now becomes useless.
More likely I'd say that they caught something unfinished from the takeoff checklist (maybe checking flap/slat position, etc), then when satisfied, continued the takeoff. That's just a guess however, since nobody here was listening in to what happened in the cockpit.
HAL
One smooth landing is skill. Two in a row is luck. Three in a row and someone is lying.
TrijetsRMissed From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 2102 posts, RR: 6 Reply 5, posted (6 years 3 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 3636 times:
Interesting story, probably nothing major. MD-80 take-offs are also thrilling. Last week I noticed that the AA MD-82 I was on had its main landing gear "bounce" off the ground as we rotated. The aircraft shuddered and vibrated for the next 3-4 seconds as we rocketed into the Tuscon sun.
Quoting HAL (Reply 2): I wouldn't say 'never', but I really can't imagine any airline pilot spooling his engines up (and rolling) until the actual clearance came through.
Remember the KLM nut job in the Tenerife disaster?
Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 3): Quoting HAL (Reply 2):
That's just a guess however, since nobody here was listening in to what happened in the cockpit.
SANFan From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 4746 posts, RR: 15 Reply 6, posted (6 years 3 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 3636 times:
To answer at least one of your questions, Concorde', FlightAware shows, under MSY Departures for 3/18:
AAL500 MD82 Dallas Fort Worth Int'l (KDFW) Sun 06:45PM CDT
Sounds kind of like some massive electrical failure but I sure wouldn't think they'd continue the roll.....
I will be interested if you are able to solve the mystery...
Type-Rated From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 4397 posts, RR: 20 Reply 7, posted (6 years 3 months 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 3362 times:
Quoting HAL (Reply 2): More likely I'd say that they caught something unfinished from the takeoff checklist (maybe checking flap/slat position, etc), then when satisfied, continued the takeoff. That's just a guess however, since nobody here was listening in to what happened in the cockpit.
This is most likely what happened. They advanced the throttles for take off power and some warning indication (horn or light) that reminded the crew something wasn't set right. They stopped the take off and completed the missed checklist item and then continued.
Fly North Central Airlines..The route of the Northliners!
FlyHoss From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 598 posts, RR: 0 Reply 10, posted (6 years 3 months 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 3276 times:
It's also possible that the Tower gave take off clearance, cancelled it (perhaps due to (changing) flow restrictions to DFW) and then recleared the flight for take off. I've seen this scenario happen several times before and it's happened to me once. In my case however, we rolled only about 10-15 feet as the engines had only begun to spool up when the clearance was cancelled.
FlyHoss From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 598 posts, RR: 0 Reply 12, posted (6 years 3 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 3098 times:
Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 11): ...that raises another interesting protocol issue:
how much time does the tower have to revoke clearance? Until the aircraft in question calls out V1?
Very good question, ConcordeBoy. V1 would be a good criteria. I witnessed a cancelled take off clearance last week (Friday, March 16) at IAH. The Tower had cleared a USX CRJ 900 for take off on 15L and the aircraft began to roll, but then the take off clearance was cancelled. The Tower controller apparently couldn't see the aircraft (due to patchy fog) and then added something like, "if you can" (still stop). The controller further explained the clearance cancellation was due to an aircraft executing the missed approach procedure for runway 27, thereby overflying runway 15L. As the CRJ 900 had just started to roll, they chose to stop.
SANFan From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 4746 posts, RR: 15 Reply 13, posted (6 years 3 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 3045 times:
Quoting SANFan (Reply 6): Sounds kind of like some massive electrical failure but I sure wouldn't think they'd continue the roll.....
I know that wasn't the case here but your description of the events reminded me of something very similar that happened to me in my SUV a few years ago. Driving along, all of a sudden and without warning, the engine just quit for a few seconds (seemed like every system in the car was dead) then returned to normal without incident! Needless to say, I was in shock for a few minutes. Never happened again and there actually was a recall later to fix the "known problem".
But as I said, if something like that happened on jet full of pax, I doubt the pilot would simply continue the takeoff...
Graphic From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 14, posted (6 years 3 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 2982 times:
Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 11): ...that raises another interesting protocol issue:
how much time does the tower have to revoke clearance? Until the aircraft in question calls out V1?
Probably not that long even. V1 as I understand it is "point of no return," however stopping an airliner I would assume would be a precarious endeavor well before V1 is reached. If a controller revokes clearance and the pilot calls back "unable" there's nothing anyone can do.
Tom in NO From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 7194 posts, RR: 40 Reply 15, posted (6 years 3 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 2926 times:
Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 11): how much time does the tower have to revoke clearance? Until the aircraft in question calls out V1?
Of course, remembering here that the pilot does not inform the tower when he reaches V1. Good question, though.
Quoting ConcordeBoy (Thread starter): Was spotting at MSY earlier yesterday evening.
An AA S80 was lined up with MSY's runway 19,
Been visiting the infamous bookstore, have we ?
Tom at MSY
"The criminal ineptitude makes you furious"-Bruce Springsteen, after seeing firsthand the damage from Hurricane Katrina
LASOctoberB6 From Japan, joined Nov 2006, 2380 posts, RR: 1 Reply 18, posted (6 years 3 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 2632 times:
Quoting Graphic (Reply 14): V1 as I understand it is "point of no return," however stopping an airliner I would assume would be a precarious endeavor well before V1 is reached.
i thought that once an airliner reached V1, it was still safe to fly with one engine and return or something like that....
ConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 19, posted (6 years 3 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 2510 times:
Quoting LASOctoberB6 (Reply 18): i thought that once an airliner reached V1, it was still safe to fly with one engine and return or something like that....
V1 is the decision velocity.
Before that point, the pilots may decide whether or not to abort or continue a takeoff.
After that point, the decision is made for them-- it is safer to continue the takeoff.
Graphic From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 20, posted (6 years 3 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 2504 times:
Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 19): After that point, the decision is made for them-- it is safer to continue the takeoff.
In most cases. Sometime either last year or the year before there was a Midwest MD-80 taking off from BOS that had to stop after V1 as the jackscrew in the horizontal stabilizer had jammed and the aircraft couldn't rotate.
Albird87 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 22, posted (6 years 3 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 2367 times:
Did you hear a bang at all with the initial spool up??
I have been on a 727 and it was in a cross wind and one of the engines wasnt getting enough air due to the cross wind and made a bang. The pilots spooled down and then saw everything was ok and then continued the takeoff roll.
This is caused due to a compressor overload as the engine is powering up but not enough air getting to the enigne
TrijetsRMissed From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 2102 posts, RR: 6 Reply 23, posted (6 years 3 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 2297 times:
Quoting LASOctoberB6 (Reply 8): Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 5):
Or Ch.9 if you were a passenger on the flight.
Quoting GerbenYYZ (Reply 17): Clearly there were many factors involved in that accident and have been extensively discussed many times...
Yes... and clearly taking off without propper clearance was the principle factor, but that's a whole other discussion. The point is, in response to HAL, it does happen.
Quoting Graphic (Reply 20): n most cases. Sometime either last year or the year before there was a Midwest MD-80 taking off from BOS that had to stop after V1 as the jackscrew in the horizontal stabilizer had jammed and the aircraft couldn't rotate.
Is this true? I don't remember hearing about that but that could have been a repeat of AS 261 had they not aborted. Pretty scary.
Wjcandee From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 4584 posts, RR: 18 Reply 24, posted (6 years 3 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 2216 times:
This could also have been a sound illusion. If you're watching from a distance, it's conceivable that the only thing that happened was you didn't hear the jet blast for a moment while the aircraft was moving, and it seemed as if the engines had both spooled down. That they kept on going with no other indicia of a problem other than both engines being cut for a second and then seemingly back at full could have something to do with the relative position of the aircraft and surfaces that were reflecting its noise pattern to you.
25 ConcordeBoy: no you don't KNOW engine surges until you experience on on Concorde... It was no illusion, the aircraft ceased acceleration for several hundred feet
27 Willyj: Same thing happened to me in 1999 on a DL shuttle flight LGA-DCA. We aborted the take off and went back to the Marine Air Terminal. After about 15 mi
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