Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Unusual AA Takeoff Spoolup At MSY  
User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (7 years 5 months 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 4335 times:

Sunday, 3/18/07, 6:44pm Central.

Was spotting at MSY earlier yesterday evening.

An AA S80 was lined up with MSY's runway 19, and at 6:44pm it spooled up and began its takeoff roll. About 300ft into the departure, the aircraft powered-down to complete silence. It continued to roll for at least 1 times its fuselage length while silent, but then it spooled up to power and continued the takeoff. Its mains didn't lift off until right before the threshold "keys", but it did sustain a rather exciting climbout angle.

My questions in this; does anyone know:

  • what flight this is and where it was going?
  • what may have caused it to behave in this way?
  • whether the FAA, AA, or other airlines have protocol for this sort of occurence?

    ....my guess is that he might have gotten clearance later than expected, and having begun his roll-- went back to idle, only to be given clearance at that point. After losing about 500ft of runway, I thought for sure it would break and turn off, but instead it powered up continued the (long) roll; and shot out at a very strong angle (even for an MD80) climbout angle. I guess 6500ft is still more than enough for an S80 going to DFW/STL, though it would've been interesting if this was a flight on its way to ORD/LGA.

    Anyone?

  • 27 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
     
    User currently offlineLASOctoberB6 From Japan, joined Nov 2006, 2380 posts, RR: 1
    Reply 1, posted (7 years 5 months 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 4298 times:

    kinda makes me remember the time i was out spottin at LAS a few years ago when a Planet (<- was that the airline that bought 1983 National Airlines' logo?) S80 was cleared to go and it lined up, went into reverse, then full throttle and went all the way down the end of 25R then lifted off.....really strange....

    [Edited 2007-03-19 07:42:54]


    [NOT IN SERVICE] {WEStJet}
    User currently offlineHAL From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 2560 posts, RR: 53
    Reply 2, posted (7 years 5 months 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 4293 times:

    Quoting ConcordeBoy (Thread starter):
    ....my guess is that he might have gotten clearance later than expected, and having begun his roll-- went back to idle, only to be given clearance at that point.

    I wouldn't say 'never', but I really can't imagine any airline pilot spooling his engines up (and rolling) until the actual clearance came through. Not only is it illegal (rolling without clearance) but stupid - you eat up that precious real estate that now becomes useless.

    More likely I'd say that they caught something unfinished from the takeoff checklist (maybe checking flap/slat position, etc), then when satisfied, continued the takeoff. That's just a guess however, since nobody here was listening in to what happened in the cockpit.

    HAL



    One smooth landing is skill. Two in a row is luck. Three in a row and someone is lying.
    User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
    Reply 3, posted (7 years 5 months 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 4277 times:

    Quoting HAL (Reply 2):
    rolling) until the actual clearance came through.

    ...talk to any JAL pilots lately?  Wink

    Quoting HAL (Reply 2):
    that precious real estate that now becomes useless.

    As I said earlier, I'm guessing he found 6500ft or so to be sufficient; though this is why I'd be interesting to see where that one was headed to.

    Quoting HAL (Reply 2):
    That's just a guess however, since nobody here was listening in to what happened in the cockpit.

    Indeed, REALLY wish I'd had a scanner....


    User currently offlineAirTranTUS From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
    Reply 4, posted (7 years 5 months 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 4249 times:

    This would be the flight. AA 500 to DFW.

    http://flightaware.com/live/flight/AAL500


    User currently offlineTrijetsRMissed From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 2334 posts, RR: 7
    Reply 5, posted (7 years 5 months 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 4240 times:

    Interesting story, probably nothing major. MD-80 take-offs are also thrilling. Last week I noticed that the AA MD-82 I was on had its main landing gear "bounce" off the ground as we rotated. The aircraft shuddered and vibrated for the next 3-4 seconds as we rocketed into the Tuscon sun.

    Quoting HAL (Reply 2):
    I wouldn't say 'never', but I really can't imagine any airline pilot spooling his engines up (and rolling) until the actual clearance came through.

    Remember the KLM nut job in the Tenerife disaster?

    Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 3):
    Quoting HAL (Reply 2):
    That's just a guess however, since nobody here was listening in to what happened in the cockpit.

    Indeed, REALLY wish I'd had a scanner....

    Or Ch.9 if you were a passenger on the flight.



    There's nothing quite like a tri-jet.
    User currently offlineSANFan From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 5396 posts, RR: 12
    Reply 6, posted (7 years 5 months 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 4240 times:

    To answer at least one of your questions, Concorde', FlightAware shows, under MSY Departures for 3/18:
    AAL500 MD82 Dallas Fort Worth Int'l (KDFW) Sun 06:45PM CDT

    Sounds kind of like some massive electrical failure but I sure wouldn't think they'd continue the roll.....

    I will be interested if you are able to solve the mystery...

    bb


    User currently offlineType-Rated From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 4974 posts, RR: 19
    Reply 7, posted (7 years 5 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 3966 times:

    Quoting HAL (Reply 2):
    More likely I'd say that they caught something unfinished from the takeoff checklist (maybe checking flap/slat position, etc), then when satisfied, continued the takeoff. That's just a guess however, since nobody here was listening in to what happened in the cockpit.

    This is most likely what happened. They advanced the throttles for take off power and some warning indication (horn or light) that reminded the crew something wasn't set right. They stopped the take off and completed the missed checklist item and then continued.



    Fly North Central Airlines..The route of the Northliners!
    User currently offlineLASOctoberB6 From Japan, joined Nov 2006, 2380 posts, RR: 1
    Reply 8, posted (7 years 5 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 3952 times:

    Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 5):
    Or Ch.9 if you were a passenger on the flight.

    if you were on UA



    [NOT IN SERVICE] {WEStJet}
    User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
    Reply 9, posted (7 years 5 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 3907 times:

    Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 5):
    Or Ch.9 if you were a passenger on the flight.

    Isn't that only UA? ...an airline I have no intention of patronizing any time soon.

    Quoting SANFan (Reply 6):
    Sounds kind of like some massive electrical failure

    How'd ya find that out?

    Quoting SANFan (Reply 6):
    but I sure wouldn't think they'd continue the roll.

    My thoughts as well, especially after having lost a couple hundred feet of runway


    User currently offlineFlyHoss From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 598 posts, RR: 0
    Reply 10, posted (7 years 5 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 3880 times:

    It's also possible that the Tower gave take off clearance, cancelled it (perhaps due to (changing) flow restrictions to DFW) and then recleared the flight for take off. I've seen this scenario happen several times before and it's happened to me once. In my case however, we rolled only about 10-15 feet as the engines had only begun to spool up when the clearance was cancelled.


    A little bit louder now, a lil bit louder now...
    User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
    Reply 11, posted (7 years 5 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 3844 times:

    ...that raises another interesting protocol issue:
    how much time does the tower have to revoke clearance? Until the aircraft in question calls out V1?


    User currently offlineFlyHoss From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 598 posts, RR: 0
    Reply 12, posted (7 years 5 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 3702 times:

    Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 11):
    ...that raises another interesting protocol issue:
    how much time does the tower have to revoke clearance? Until the aircraft in question calls out V1?

    Very good question, ConcordeBoy. V1 would be a good criteria. I witnessed a cancelled take off clearance last week (Friday, March 16) at IAH. The Tower had cleared a USX CRJ 900 for take off on 15L and the aircraft began to roll, but then the take off clearance was cancelled. The Tower controller apparently couldn't see the aircraft (due to patchy fog) and then added something like, "if you can" (still stop). The controller further explained the clearance cancellation was due to an aircraft executing the missed approach procedure for runway 27, thereby overflying runway 15L. As the CRJ 900 had just started to roll, they chose to stop.



    A little bit louder now, a lil bit louder now...
    User currently offlineSANFan From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 5396 posts, RR: 12
    Reply 13, posted (7 years 5 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 3649 times:

    Quoting SANFan (Reply 6):
    Sounds kind of like some massive electrical failure but I sure wouldn't think they'd continue the roll.....

    I know that wasn't the case here but your description of the events reminded me of something very similar that happened to me in my SUV a few years ago. Driving along, all of a sudden and without warning, the engine just quit for a few seconds (seemed like every system in the car was dead) then returned to normal without incident! Needless to say, I was in shock for a few minutes. Never happened again and there actually was a recall later to fix the "known problem".

    But as I said, if something like that happened on jet full of pax, I doubt the pilot would simply continue the takeoff...

    bb


    User currently offlineGraphic From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
    Reply 14, posted (7 years 5 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 3586 times:

    Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 11):
    ...that raises another interesting protocol issue:
    how much time does the tower have to revoke clearance? Until the aircraft in question calls out V1?

    Probably not that long even. V1 as I understand it is "point of no return," however stopping an airliner I would assume would be a precarious endeavor well before V1 is reached. If a controller revokes clearance and the pilot calls back "unable" there's nothing anyone can do.


    User currently offlineTom in NO From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 7194 posts, RR: 33
    Reply 15, posted (7 years 5 months 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 3530 times:

    Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 11):
    how much time does the tower have to revoke clearance? Until the aircraft in question calls out V1?

    Of course, remembering here that the pilot does not inform the tower when he reaches V1. Good question, though.

    Quoting ConcordeBoy (Thread starter):
    Was spotting at MSY earlier yesterday evening.
    An AA S80 was lined up with MSY's runway 19,

    Been visiting the infamous bookstore, have we ?  wink 

    Tom at MSY



    "The criminal ineptitude makes you furious"-Bruce Springsteen, after seeing firsthand the damage from Hurricane Katrina
    User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
    Reply 16, posted (7 years 5 months 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 3442 times:

    Quoting Tom in NO (Reply 15):

    Been visiting the infamous bookstore, have we ?

    No


    User currently offlineGerbenYYZ From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 130 posts, RR: 0
    Reply 17, posted (7 years 5 months 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 3388 times:

    Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 5):
    Remember the KLM nut job in the Tenerife disaster?

    Clearly there were many factors involved in that accident and have been extensively discussed many times...


    User currently offlineLASOctoberB6 From Japan, joined Nov 2006, 2380 posts, RR: 1
    Reply 18, posted (7 years 5 months 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 3236 times:

    Quoting Graphic (Reply 14):
    V1 as I understand it is "point of no return," however stopping an airliner I would assume would be a precarious endeavor well before V1 is reached.

    i thought that once an airliner reached V1, it was still safe to fly with one engine and return or something like that....



    [NOT IN SERVICE] {WEStJet}
    User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
    Reply 19, posted (7 years 5 months 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 3114 times:

    Quoting LASOctoberB6 (Reply 18):
    i thought that once an airliner reached V1, it was still safe to fly with one engine and return or something like that....

    V1 is the decision velocity.
    Before that point, the pilots may decide whether or not to abort or continue a takeoff.
    After that point, the decision is made for them-- it is safer to continue the takeoff.


    User currently offlineGraphic From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
    Reply 20, posted (7 years 5 months 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 3108 times:

    Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 19):
    After that point, the decision is made for them-- it is safer to continue the takeoff.

    In most cases. Sometime either last year or the year before there was a Midwest MD-80 taking off from BOS that had to stop after V1 as the jackscrew in the horizontal stabilizer had jammed and the aircraft couldn't rotate.


    User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
    Reply 21, posted (7 years 5 months 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 3002 times:

    ...not exactly like they had any other way to go there now did they  Yeah sure

    User currently offlineAlbird87 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
    Reply 22, posted (7 years 5 months 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 2971 times:

    Did you hear a bang at all with the initial spool up??
    I have been on a 727 and it was in a cross wind and one of the engines wasnt getting enough air due to the cross wind and made a bang. The pilots spooled down and then saw everything was ok and then continued the takeoff roll.
    This is caused due to a compressor overload as the engine is powering up but not enough air getting to the enigne


    User currently offlineTrijetsRMissed From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 2334 posts, RR: 7
    Reply 23, posted (7 years 5 months 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 2901 times:

    Quoting LASOctoberB6 (Reply 8):
    Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 5):
    Or Ch.9 if you were a passenger on the flight.

    if you were on UA



    Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 9):
    Isn't that only UA?

    I thought that went without saying, my bad.

    Quoting GerbenYYZ (Reply 17):
    Clearly there were many factors involved in that accident and have been extensively discussed many times...

    Yes... and clearly taking off without propper clearance was the principle factor, but that's a whole other discussion. The point is, in response to HAL, it does happen.

    Quoting Graphic (Reply 20):
    n most cases. Sometime either last year or the year before there was a Midwest MD-80 taking off from BOS that had to stop after V1 as the jackscrew in the horizontal stabilizer had jammed and the aircraft couldn't rotate.

    Is this true? I don't remember hearing about that but that could have been a repeat of AS 261 had they not aborted. Pretty scary.



    There's nothing quite like a tri-jet.
    User currently offlineWjcandee From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5149 posts, RR: 22
    Reply 24, posted (7 years 5 months 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 2820 times:

    This could also have been a sound illusion. If you're watching from a distance, it's conceivable that the only thing that happened was you didn't hear the jet blast for a moment while the aircraft was moving, and it seemed as if the engines had both spooled down. That they kept on going with no other indicia of a problem other than both engines being cut for a second and then seemingly back at full could have something to do with the relative position of the aircraft and surfaces that were reflecting its noise pattern to you.

    25 Post contains images ConcordeBoy : no you don't KNOW engine surges until you experience on on Concorde... It was no illusion, the aircraft ceased acceleration for several hundred feet
    26 Post contains images FXramper : Maybe they missed a gear.
    27 Willyj : Same thing happened to me in 1999 on a DL shuttle flight LGA-DCA. We aborted the take off and went back to the Marine Air Terminal. After about 15 mi
    Top Of Page
    Forum Index

    This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

    Printer friendly format

    Similar topics:More similar topics...
    AA To Go All Mainline At MSY posted Sun May 7 2006 16:15:02 by MSYtristar
    United Capacity Swaps At MSY posted Sat Mar 3 2007 00:21:17 by MSYtristar
    AA 767s Back At SAN! posted Mon Feb 19 2007 09:18:11 by San747
    WN To (likely) Lose Counter Space At MSY posted Tue Jan 30 2007 15:22:46 by MSYtristar
    Transfering From AA To IB At SJU posted Tue Jan 30 2007 03:52:47 by BOAC911
    AirTran At MSY Back To 5 Flights posted Fri Jan 5 2007 14:31:12 by BNinMSY
    AA Maintenance Base At MCI posted Fri Dec 29 2006 05:59:04 by AA757200
    The VS A346 At MSY Countdown Thread posted Wed Dec 13 2006 05:39:07 by MSYtristar
    What Is An AA 757 Doing At CDG? posted Sat Nov 18 2006 15:17:12 by Albird87
    AA Emergency Landing At DAB? posted Wed Nov 8 2006 22:24:48 by RL757PVD