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Will Continental Ever Return To Chile?  
User currently offlineContinentalEWR From United States of America, joined May 2000, 3762 posts, RR: 13
Posted (7 years 5 months 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 5443 times:

Continental Airlines briefly operated a nonstop DC10-30 service from Newark to Santiago, which then became a one stop service via Lima. It was eventually dropped.

I would think CO could profitably operate to SLC from IAH.

Thoughts?

51 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineLawnDart From United States of America, joined May 2005, 970 posts, RR: 3
Reply 1, posted (7 years 5 months 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 5423 times:

Quoting ContinentalEWR (Thread starter):
I would think CO could profitably operate to SLC from IAH.

I think Continental does profitably operate from IAH to SLC (Salt Lake City)...now, whether they can make any money to SCL (Santiago) is another question...


User currently offlineMCOflyer From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 8670 posts, RR: 15
Reply 2, posted (7 years 5 months 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 5418 times:

Quoting LawnDart (Reply 1):
I think Continental does profitably operate from IAH to SLC (Salt Lake City)...now, whether they can make any money to SCL (Santiago) is another question...

If they had the right timings for connections, I could see them doing it. But doesn't CO codeshare on DL's flight to SCL?

MCOflyer



Never be afraid to stand up for who you are.
User currently offlineWesternA318 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 5652 posts, RR: 24
Reply 3, posted (7 years 5 months 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 5378 times:

Quoting LawnDart (Reply 1):
I think Continental does profitably operate from IAH to SLC (Salt Lake City)...

There is a pretty good profitability from SLC  bigthumbsup . SCL might be a different story though...



Next trip: SLC-DEN-SLC-PHX-JFK-LAX-SLC with my wife and oldest daughter. F9 to and from DEN, US to JFK, AA 321 and CR7
User currently offlineSLCUT2777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 4049 posts, RR: 11
Reply 4, posted (7 years 5 months 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 5330 times:

Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 2):
If they had the right timings for connections, I could see them doing it. But doesn't CO codeshare on DL's flight to SCL?

Just checked the CO web-site and they do indeed!: Continental flight 4078 operated by Delta Air Lines.



DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
User currently onlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22857 posts, RR: 20
Reply 5, posted (7 years 5 months 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 5324 times:

Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 2):
But doesn't CO codeshare on DL's flight to SCL?

Yes, and they also codeshare on the CM service, so they offer two stop service from most points over one of their hubs and either PTY or ATL.

I think Chile is fairly well-served for its size. If one compares service to EZE with service to SCL, considering that B.A. is about 3 times the size of Santiago and Argentina is nearly three times the size of Chile (and putting aside the fact that for a good chunk of Argentina, it's easier to fly through SCL because of the EZE/AEP situation), you'll see that Chile is in pretty good shape. Assuming a 'conventional' schedule from North America, the aircraft also sits empty on the tarmac at SCL for 10 hours or so, significantly increasing the opportunity costs of any service.

Quoting ContinentalEWR (Thread starter):
I would think CO could profitably operate to SLC from IAH.

The problem with IAH is that it's not especially well-located for connections to South America from the eastern half of the country. Flying BOS-IAH-SCL instead of BOS-ATL-SCL adds almost 1000 miles of flight. Add that to the realities of the market discussed above and it just makes the situation worse. There's plenty of cargo to be flown from Chile to the States, but cargo alone does not a profitable flight make.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineSLCUT2777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 4049 posts, RR: 11
Reply 6, posted (7 years 5 months 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 5286 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 5):
The problem with IAH is that it's not especially well-located for connections to South America from the eastern half of the country. Flying BOS-IAH-SCL instead of BOS-ATL-SCL adds almost 1000 miles of flight. Add that to the realities of the market discussed above and it just makes the situation worse. There's plenty of cargo to be flown from Chile to the States, but cargo alone does not a profitable flight make.

One of the geographical oddities of the airline and air travel business is the proximity of countries and continents. Most of South America is along a longitude that puts places like Santiago in the Eastern (or is it even in the Atlantic?--dont have my NG Robinson projection World Map handy!!) Time Zone. This is the reason ATL is important to DL and MIA (not DFW) is important to AA for South American flights. While along with Argentina being the most developed South American country, Chile is a relatively small nation population wise at only 16.1 million (CIA World Fact Book 2007).



DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
User currently offlineCALPSAFltSkeds From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 2613 posts, RR: 9
Reply 7, posted (7 years 5 months 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 5277 times:

I can't see why it would not work. If AA can operate a non-stop out of DFW and one out of MIA, then CO should make it work out of IAH, which is slightly better as a connect point vs. DFW.

The traditional timings are redeyes both directions, meaning two aircraft are involved. However, one of the aircraft could be utilized at IAH for a West Coast RT and could be run as a thrugh trip to LAX each way and providing the quickest service between LAX and SCL, and direct, not a connection in LIM, DFW or MIA..

2 AIRCRAFT REQUIRED (762 OR 764)

LAX 1500 IAH 2013-2120 SCL 0725
SCL 2155 IAH 0625-0830 LAX 1019 4:41 GROUND TIME IN LAX

If the aircraft were a 764, it might be able to get in front of the LAX-HNL non-stop, which would require the SCL-IAH-LAX segments to run up 1:05 earlier and LAX-HNL to run 3:05 later. This would delay the HNL-GUM and HNL-NGO flights 1 to 2 hours. The benefit of this would be to free the 764 in LAX that makes up the 0805 HNL trip until 1500. The 0545 LAX-IAH and 1225 IAH-LAX could be upgraded to a 764, freeing a 738/739 in LAX until 1500.


User currently offlineEastern023 From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 871 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (7 years 5 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 5093 times:

I think we will see UA returning to Chile before you see CO's golden blobe tails back at SCL (not SLC by the way!). I see SCL-IAD a better flight option rather than SCL-IAH. SkyTeam (or CO & DL) already codeshare the daily Delta flight ATL-SCL, even DL is thinking about a SCL-JFK non-stop in the near future. Star alliance needs more presence in South America.


AA will Rise Again!
User currently onlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22857 posts, RR: 20
Reply 9, posted (7 years 5 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 5047 times:

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 6):
(or is it even in the Atlantic?--dont have my NG Robinson projection World Map handy!!) Time Zone.

It's Atlantic, and they do daylight savings time opposite of the way we do it in the northern hemisphere (for obvious reasons). So on the east coast, we actually go from the same time as Chile to two hours behind depending on time of year.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineIAD380 From United States of America, joined May 2006, 804 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (7 years 5 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 4895 times:

We are considering a trip to Chile later this year. I wish that UA would offer nonstop IAD-SCL flights so we could avoid connections. However, UA and CO have not flown to SCL in years. AA and DL are the only American airlines that still fly to Chile. One World seems to dominate traffic between the United States and Chile, with AA flying from DFW and MIA, and LA flying from MIA, JFK, and LAX. DL offers only one daily flight from ATL to SCL on behalf on Skyteam. The only way to get to SCL from the United States on Star Alliance is to fly north to YYZ!

Geographically, SCL is the end of the line. It is not a natural place to connect onwards to most other major cities. Chile has a smaller population than Argentina and Peru. This may explain why few American and European airlines fly to SCL, although Chile perhaps is the most prosperous country in South America.


User currently offlineORDTerminal1 From United States of America, joined May 2006, 129 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (7 years 5 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 4881 times:

There is a cool picture of a UA 767 on its last flight from SCL. It says thanks for 15 years or something....kinda touching...AWWWWW


717, 727, 732,733, 734, 735, 738, 742, 744, 752, 763, 319, 320, 340, F100
User currently offlineSLCUT2777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 4049 posts, RR: 11
Reply 12, posted (7 years 5 months 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 4813 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 9):
It's Atlantic, and they do daylight savings time opposite of the way we do it in the northern hemisphere (for obvious reasons). So on the east coast, we actually go from the same time as Chile to two hours behind depending on time of year.

You are correct, and Peru, Ecuador and Columbia are all on Eastern Time for the most part. SCL is essentially on a longitude that is east of BOS (@70W of Greenwich). Keep in mind that there is roughly 15 degrees in longitude to cover your average time zone (gerrymandered of course for cultural and economic ties or in the case of the Dominican Republic non-ties with Haiti!). All of South America is Eastern Time Zone eastward.



DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20482 posts, RR: 62
Reply 13, posted (7 years 5 months 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 4731 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 5):
There's plenty of cargo to be flown from Chile to the States, but cargo alone does not a profitable flight make.



Quoting CALPSAFltSkeds (Reply 7):
The traditional timings are redeyes both directions, meaning two aircraft are involved.

I tried looking for a couple of posts I recall being made in the past year about AA's DFW-SCL service that indicated cargo really does make that flight, IIRC, but couldn't find them. While I was searching though, I found this interesting thread by LipeGIG with passenger and cargo loads between the US and points in South America for August/06. I realize that's the beginning of low season, but AA was flying passenger load factors in the mid-60s on Chile flights, while other points in S.A were still experiencing loads in the 80s and 90s--but the difference in cargo tonnage was huge for Chile on a per flight basis than for most of the rest of S.A., especially on the SCL-MIA flight.

This is the thread: US-South America Aug/06 - Loads/Cargo (by LipeGIG Feb 26 2007 in Civil Aviation)

I realize one of the most controversial things you can say on A.net is "daylight flight", even as more and more airlines add them coming up out of S.A., but with the large air cargo market between Chile and the U.S., what would it take to make a daylight return from SCL work for CO so they'd only need to use one plane, instead of two? 20 tons per flight? More? I don't intend the answers to be a debate on if passengers want a daylight flight, but what it would take for the flight to be worthwhile for CO even with a low passenger load factor, and the corresponding change in the economics of only having to use one plane vs. two, by avoiding parking an aircraft at SCL all day.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently onlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22857 posts, RR: 20
Reply 14, posted (7 years 5 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 4682 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 13):

I tried looking for a couple of posts I recall being made in the past year about AA's DFW-SCL service that indicated cargo really does make that flight, IIRC, but couldn't find them.

It's true cargo makes that flight, but without the partnership with LA, I don't think the flight would have any shot at all. It's only the connections and the cargo that make it work (and the fact that DFW is larger hub than IAH; in fact, it's the second largest airline hub in the world after DL at ATL).



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 57
Reply 15, posted (7 years 5 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 4638 times:

CO would like to get back to Santiago de Chile.....this time with a nonstop service out of IAH. CO's IAH-GRU/GIG service does very well, the recent IAH-EZE has exceeded all expectations, so an IAH-SCL service would also probably be a success. When CO served SCL in the past, as pointed out by the OP, a DC10 was used out of EWR: the aircraft was far too big for the route and EWR, in this case, was probably the wrong gateway. The flight then became a onestop fiasco flying EWR-LIM-SCL and passengers from IAH could join the flight in Lima....the entire operation did not work very well as passengers really did not like the onestop service. The 757 was also the wrong airplane for the route as cargo is a factor on services to deep South America......CO dropped the LIM-SCL segment when it could no longer offer seats on that segment to the local market.

CO will try again.....but like so many other potential routes, it will have to wait until CO has received delivery of a number of 787s....what I have heard is that the IAH-SCL route would be flown by the 762ER. Thus, 788/789s would take over routes now flown by the 767 (for example, IAH-EZE needs a bigger airplane) and the displaced 762ER would open up the new route to SCL. Time will tell.


User currently offlineCALPSAFltSkeds From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 2613 posts, RR: 9
Reply 16, posted (7 years 5 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 4571 times:

As usual, Dutch, you make complete sense. I wouldn't look for SCL prior to the 787's.

However, after ranking SCL vs. other options, one possibility would be to grab the EWR-DUB 762 and maybe look at the 3 day per week 762 IAH-AMS for the aircraft needed. The EWR-DUB operation may only be for the summer, but could go back to a 752 when a 738/739 delivery can replace one of the few domestic 752 routings.

Does anyone know how the 3 day per week IAH-AMS 762 is doing and why it's not daily? I know the aircraft is positioned to EWR some days, but can't see what it does there.


User currently offlineWesternA318 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 5652 posts, RR: 24
Reply 17, posted (7 years 5 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 4569 times:

Does anyone here think the 739ER we're getting might be used for EWR-Ireland flights?


Next trip: SLC-DEN-SLC-PHX-JFK-LAX-SLC with my wife and oldest daughter. F9 to and from DEN, US to JFK, AA 321 and CR7
User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 18, posted (7 years 5 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 4536 times:

Quoting WesternA318 (Reply 17):
Does anyone here think the 739ER we're getting might be used for EWR-Ireland flights?

Nope. Insufficient range.

NS


User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 57
Reply 19, posted (7 years 5 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 4523 times:

Quoting WesternA318 (Reply 17):
Does anyone here think the 739ER we're getting might be used for EWR-Ireland flights?

NO, NO, NO.......the 739ERs are domestic aircraft, with domestic first class, and really dont have the range for Ireland services.....the 739ER only has about two hundred or so more miles in range than a 738. Its funny, half of a.net is offended that CO sends 757s accorss the Atlantic on so many flights, and the other half wants CO to use 737s on transatlantic turns......CO's smallest airplane accorss the Atlantic will continue to be the 752. Do look for 739ERs on lots of transcon flights, freeing up 752s for additional transatlantic services.

Quoting CALPSAFltSkeds (Reply 16):
However, after ranking SCL vs. other options, one possibility would be to grab the EWR-DUB 762 and maybe look at the 3 day per week 762 IAH-AMS for the aircraft needed. The EWR-DUB operation may only be for the summer, but could go back to a 752 when a 738/739 delivery can replace one of the few domestic 752 routings

I heard that the reason EWR-DUB is flying with the 762 is based upon the new EWR-ATH service also with the 762....the routes ""balance"" eachother from a scheduling and operational point of view. To be very honest, I dont know exactly what that means, but it sounds good?! May you can help me out here?

Quoting CALPSAFltSkeds (Reply 16):
Does anyone know how the 3 day per week IAH-AMS 762 is doing and why it's not daily? I know the aircraft is positioned to EWR some days, but can't see what it does there.

Check the EWR-CDG schedules, on a day to day basis, and you may find your answer....the ""third"" EWR-CDG flight sometimes runs with a 752, other days with a 762 (the other two depatures are a 772 and a 752 daily). That could have something to do with the 3X weekly IAH-AMS 762......as to why that flight is 3X per week, I dont know....will guess that its simply supply and demand......Also note that there is some flexibility in the 767 schedule at EWR....this summer expect lots of equipment swapping on a day to day basis to match supply and demand on transatlantic services...for example, some of the EWR-LGW and EWR-CDG flights scheduled with a 752 will be running with 762 equipment or 764 equipment, look for some surprise 772 upgrades, etc. And some downgrades, EWR- FRA has recently be running with a mix of 762, 764 and 777 service although its officially a 764 route over the winter.


User currently offlineCALPSAFltSkeds From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 2613 posts, RR: 9
Reply 20, posted (7 years 5 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 4513 times:

The 739ER has less range than a 738 unless the extra fuel tanks are installed and I doubt CO would add fuel tanks to an aircraft they plan to use transcon.


Fuel capacity 738: 6875 gallons fuel capacity (assume 739ER same) With 2 aux tanks 7837 gallons

Max TOW 738 174000Lbs. 739ER 187700Lbs. (I believe it's beefed up gear)

Range 738 3060 miles, 739ER 2700*, (3200 with 2 aux tanks)
* Boeing shows this in high density, single class layout, so it's undoubtedly higher with two class configuration

Engines: both aircraft have CFM56-7 with 27,300 Lbs. thrust.

At MTOW the 739ER should lumber down the runway a little more than the 738 and probably have a slightly slower climb rate.


User currently offlineCALPSAFltSkeds From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 2613 posts, RR: 9
Reply 21, posted (7 years 5 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 4508 times:

The 739ER has less range than a 738 unless the extra fuel tanks are installed and I doubt CO would add fuel tanks to an aircraft they plan to use transcon.


Fuel capacity 738: 6875 gallons fuel capacity (assume 739ER same) With 2 aux tanks 7837 gallons

Max TOW 738 174000Lbs. 739ER 187700Lbs. (I believe it's beefed up gear)

Range 738 3060 nat. miles, 739ER 2700 nat, miles*, (3200 nat. miles with 2 aux tanks)
* Boeing shows this in high density, single class layout, so it's undoubtedly higher with two class configuration
EWR-SFO 2229 NM.
EWR-SNN 2690 NM
EWR-DUB 2774 NM

Engines: both aircraft have CFM56-7 with 27,300 Lbs. thrust.

At MTOW the 739ER should lumber down the runway a little more than the 738 and probably have a slightly slower climb rate.


User currently onlineEddieDude From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 7566 posts, RR: 43
Reply 22, posted (7 years 5 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 4345 times:

Quoting IAD380 (Reply 10):
UA and CO have not flown to SCL in years. AA and DL are the only American airlines that still fly to Chile.

I recall that about a year ago or so, someone opened a thread about UA and SCL, and the conclusion was, if I am not mistaken, that for the time being LA, AA and DL cover the market pretty well. Should CO or UA attempt to return to SCL, it is possible we would witness yield-dilution, so I guess it is safe to speculate that none of them will go back to SCL any time soon.



Next flights: MEX-GRU (AM 77E), GRU-GIG (JJ A320), SDU-CGH (G3 73H), GRU-MEX (JJ A332).
User currently offlineIAD380 From United States of America, joined May 2006, 804 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (7 years 5 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 4319 times:

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 22):
Should CO or UA attempt to return to SCL, it is possible we would witness yield-dilution, so I guess it is safe to speculate that none of them will go back to SCL any time soon.

Yes, you are right. However, it would be nice if there were flights from SCL to other cities in the United States, especially IAD, ORD, or IAH. Hopefully, market demand will grow, and one day airlines will find it profitable to fly these new routes.


User currently offlinePavlovsDog From Norway, joined Sep 2005, 657 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (7 years 5 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 4309 times:

A market I could see working really well for CO would be IAH- VVI Santa Cruz Bolivia-SCL or GIG.

Santa Cruz is a booming city and energy center for Bolivia. Houston is the center of the global energy industry. There must be significant demand, especially business class and cargo. I believe this route would also be feasible with a 757.


25 FLY2LIM : Columbia, South Carolina. Colombia, South America FLY2LIM
26 LAXdude1023 : I agree. IAH-Boliva is somthing that could be done. There hasnt been much expansion from IAH in recent times, just EWR. I think another go at IAH-Sou
27 COEI2007 : I think it had something to do with the block times?
28 Jfk777 : Houston to Santiago de Chile would make good sense for Continental. With EZE and GRU working so well this is the next obvious destination down there.
29 IAD380 : CO would probably pattern a route from IAH to VVI after the "dedicate" service that its Skyteam partner, AF, offers from CDG to small, remote, and im
30 Eastern023 : Still is beyond me why UA left Chile. Or at least why is it not fying IAD-SCL even on a tag-on from EZE. SCL-EZE are now under fierce competition LA v
31 IAD380 : I, too, would like UA to resume flights from IAD to SCL, either nonstop, or via EZE, or even LIM. Currently, UA's flight from IAD to EZE continues on
32 MD11junkie : Low yields. RG could do it from GRU. Why have it costing you money if you can sell it via GRU to the passengers that needed almost cost-free. AF will
33 Dutchjet : As I said above........
34 TAN FLYR : Just a note on daylight northbound flights, I took one of the early AA flights in 1990 from SCL on a SCL-LIM-MIA routing (757). Watching the Andes sli
35 WorldTraveler : While CO does stand a chance of making IAH-SCL work, the largest region for S. America to US traffc is to the eastern US. Western S. America isn't qui
36 WesternA318 : If CO sent in the 752 or 3...that could possibly work..or even the 739ER...
37 JDAirCEO : Is UA really stopping EZE-MVD? If they are, is it seasonal? They have many loyal Uruguaians, and an office in downtown MVD.
38 Cubsrule : Given the Morales administration's stance toward MNCs in general and American corporations in particular, I don't think there's that much oil traffic
39 Dutchjet : But the 762ER has a big J cabin and less Y seats to fill which could lead to higher yeilds and the 762ER does haul a reasonable amount of cargo (of c
40 ATLAaron : Poll: Will CO ever return to Chile?
41 Eastern023 : No. As I said it one more time. We will see the United now white U tailed 767 back on the SCL tarmac before we see the golden globe tails of Continen
42 Diesel33 : In the past few years United has been consistently closing its South American stations, how can you be so certain that UA will service Santiago de Ch
43 Eastern023 : Your statement is true. UA has been closing stations in South America since 2001, however they are after yields and making money (I agree, this is wh
44 LipeGIG : GIG needs a non-stop from IAH ! On September/06, the last info available ,(i will try to post a new thread with US-South America numbers shortly) 60%
45 LAXdude1023 : I couldnt agree more! I think IAH-GIG would do very well. I know IAH-GRU does very well as is and some of those pax would be continueing to GIG. Im n
46 LipeGIG : The numbers are from DOT, filled i believe by CO: IAH-GIG - 2824 pax IAH-GRU - 2480 pax GIG-IAH - 2961 pax GRU-IAH - 2556 pax Just to compare, AA JFK
47 Eastern023 : If CO decides to re-launch SCL I guess it would be better than sitting around for UA to make the move.
48 WorldTraveler : fair statement. which could easily work as 3-4 flghts/week market. GIG makes far more sense to decouple from GRU than in starting SCL. For now, thoug
49 Drerx7 : No it wouldn't work for many many reasons.
50 Post contains links and images Arcano : View Large View MediumPhoto © Renzo Pontiggia Still, since most pax in chile are Lan Pass members (even department stores signs you in to Lanpas
51 LAXdude1023 : Given time, I see no reason why they cant do both from IAH. I dont know which should come first, but both could come eventually. I had thought that t
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