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Will Open Skies Bring LHR/LGW-HNL?  
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21544 posts, RR: 59
Posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 4037 times:

Or will it take the 787 as well to make it worthwhile?

It's a long range trip and would currently require a 747 or 777 or A340. Most of those are outfitted with a lot of premium seats on most airlines. One would assume you'd need a denser configuration to make it work. And CO's 764 20/236 configuration doesn't have the range. Would VS consider this route? Could JetStar win authority for this route?

Or will it just never be feasible due to yields, timezones and distance?


Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
38 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineFlyDreamliner From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2759 posts, RR: 15
Reply 1, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 4030 times:

Do you really think there is sufficient demand for this route by itself? I am always suspicious of very long haul routes geared to tourists. The plane change at EWR, MSP, ORD, ATL, or wherever isn't really the end of the world when you're shopping for bottom dollar. I think you'd have a hard time making money on a route like LON-HNL.


"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 57
Reply 2, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 3978 times:

Quoting Ikramerica (Thread starter):
Or will it take the 787 as well to make it worthwhile?

Neither the 787 or OpenSkies is going to make the London-Honolulu route worthwhile.......why? There are not enough passengers that are going to fly 13-14 hours for a beach holiday. Yes, Hawaii is beautiful, but its very far and very expensive for UK and EU passengers to travel to Hawaii for a couple of weeks in the sun.....dont forget how many alternatives there are for travellers looking for a beach holiday in an exotic destination. Spain, Turkey, Egypt, North Africa, the Canaries, Medeteranian resorts are all avaiable at low costs.....the Caribbean including Cancun is closer and cheaper as is Phuket, Thailand.....even a trip to Capetown is a faster and easier trip from the UK when compared to Hawaii.....it far and its lots of time zones away. And, there is almost no business or premium traffic to speak of on this route - result: an airplane filled with holiday travellers who paid low fares. Not exactly what the airlines have in mind. Also consider that the few UK/EU travellers that do go to Hawaii usually do it as a part of a tour to the US West Coast, thus travelling via LAX or SFO.

The best analogy that I can think of is Air Tahiti Nui's lack of success on its JFK-PPT route.....as magnificent as Tahiti is, there are very few people on the east coast of the US that are going to by pass the caribbean, the bahamas and Mexico and fly on to Tahiti for a holiday in the sun....its simply too far away.


User currently offlineBosWashSprStar From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 199 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 3978 times:

This seems unlikely. As it is, Hawaii isn't even a big holiday market for East Coast Americans--People in the Western US vacation who want a beach-island vacation go to Hawaii, people in the Eastern US who want a beach-island vacation will most often go to the Caribbean. (Note the island part is important--people just wanting a beach vacation can go to SoCal/Mexico and Florida respectively.) And there's ample capacity from London to the Caribbean with BA and VS, and other available options like DL connecting in ATL or AA connecting in MIA.

Given that London-Hawaii is even farther than East Coast US-Hawaii, it's hard to see this route being made to work.


User currently offlineTargowski From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 127 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 3972 times:

FlyDreamer is right, the market for very long flights such as LON-HNL is very limited due to the high costs of transporting fuel such a great distance (since you can't stop for fuel, you need to bring it all with you) and since that fuel takes up space and more importantly weight, you can't have too high of passenger density and sometimes you can't have 3 class service since the wieght of both business and first class equipment (bedchairs, in flight bar, extra bathroom, etc) would prevent flying with realistic passenger capacity. the market for a premium econ and enhanced business class cabin (like SQ's A345) doesn't exist on such leisure routes. thats why most really long flights now are between commerical centers (NYC/LAX-SIN, NYC-HKG, and maybe in the future LON-SYD).

User currently offlineBosWashSprStar From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 199 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 3949 times:

Quoting Targowski (Reply 4):
maybe in the future LON-SYD)

Indeed the problems you describe may ultimately be the stumbling block in the otherwise logical step of LON-SYD services, even once the technology is available, since that market actually has a fairly strong leisure tilt to it.


User currently offlinePlymSpotter From Spain, joined Jun 2004, 11673 posts, RR: 60
Reply 6, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 3937 times:

I can actually see a good chance of this happening once some of the UK charter airlines receive their 787's. The British public is suddenly getting very adventurous with their holidays; Greece and Turkey are becoming as much of a cliche as Spain and Portugal and new package tour destinations in Brazil, India, Sri Lanka and China are being opened up at tempting prices by the major high street travel agents such as MyTravel, TUI and Thomas Cook. Some of these are 10+ hour flights, predominately done with A332's - so I don't see why Hawaii, especially being the Island Paradise icon that it is, wouldn't receive a very warm welcome from the punters, despite the flying time of 12-13 hours.


Dan Smile



...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11754 posts, RR: 62
Reply 7, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 3932 times:

Each time I'm in Hawaii, I find myself with more and more Brits. Wonderful by the way -- I love the Brits!  Smile

That being said, I'm not sure if the market -- albeit definitely growing and developing -- really warrants a nonstop or will for a while. The market is pretty well served now by connections mostly over LAX and SFO.

Do any of the myriad of U.K. charter carriers ever carry out regular seasonal and/or year-round charter operations to Hawaii?


User currently offlineHa763 From United States of America, joined Jan 2003, 3663 posts, RR: 5
Reply 8, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks ago) and read 3850 times:
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I don't know why there is so much debate over the Hawaii market. Hawaii has kept the best visitor statistics for decades and puts out monthly and annual reports that are publically available on the internet.

Is there a large enough market for a scheduled non-stop UK-Hawaii or Europe-Hawaii flight? No. From the last available annual report, 2005, we got 112,370 visitors from Europe. Of those visitors, 62,827 came from the U.K. This is more than Korea and Taiwan combined, and they have non-stop and/or daily service. However, considering the distance involved, it still isn't enough to warrant non-stop service. We did see non-stop service by LH back in the early 1990s, but that didn't work out.

Is there a market for a European tour operator to fly occassional non-stop charters? Yes, but none have done so far. So far, we've had round-the-world tours from Europe stop in HNL for many years now. Maybe with the 787 on order at FCA (possibly soon to be merged with TUI) and possibly with TUI itself, we could see some non-stop charters.


User currently onlineVV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 7644 posts, RR: 17
Reply 9, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 3820 times:

Quoting Ikramerica (Thread starter):
Or will it just never be feasible due to yields, timezones and distance?

UA934 departs HNL at 0700am. UA934 arrives LHR 1215pm the following day.

UA935 departs LHR 1035am. UA935 arrives HNL 0750pm.

Both flights are via LAX where a change of plane is necessary.


User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21544 posts, RR: 59
Reply 10, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 3780 times:

62,827 UK tourists. On a 6 days a week schedule, that's 200 a day. 200 who brave the 20 to 36 hour connection journey to get there. I checked. In most cases it's 22-30 hours travel over an otherwise 6500nm route to get there, and there's one really tight option to get back to London in 16 hours, otherwise it's 20-25 hours.

This doesn't count Hawaii residents who go to LHR or one stop to the EU. One would guess there would be 20 a day? Not out of the question. And the cargo. Perishable tropical fruits and flowers going one way, and needed goods coming back.

A 777 or 747 is too large, but a 180-200 seat 788 would get you there in 12-15 hours depending on direction in 2-3 classes of service, and has great cargo ability. A charter 788 at 240 seats might also work, but I don't see why a 5-6 day a week scheduled flight wouldn't work. Look how many cities BA already flies to in the USA, and tell me truly why HNL is so out of line?

One must remember that a main reason this flight didn't exist was because it couldn't exist in the past due to aircraft limitations, and because Bermuda 2 doesn't allow it to LHR at all, or LGW in practical terms. All city pairs allowed under the agreement are already taken, and to open LGW-HNL another city pair would have had to be dropped. That wasn't going to happen. And nobody was going to start MAN-HNL, for example.

Bermuda 2 is going to go away now. That means nobody has to drop ANY city in the USA to start LHR or LGW to HNL.

British citizens go to Southeast Asia on holiday en masse. That's as far as HNL. They go to South Africa and South America. They go to Australia and New Zealand. They travel long distances! And visiting an English speaking country where your currency buys a lot (as the pound does against the dollar) is desirable for Brits.

The idea that Hawaii is not worth seeing because other things are closer is just provincial and insulting to Hawai'ians. Hawaii is actively volcanic and has a unique culture.

I've been all over the world. Hawaii is different than the Carribean, Greece, etc., and the British visit it.

And Brits are adventurous. They colonized all over the world. They even went to Hawaii way back when, with James Cook charting the islands and naming them for the Earl of Sandwich, and ending up being killed there when he came back due to a dispute. The Hawaii flag even has the Union Jack in the corner just as their former colonies do!

And if there were a non-stop, one would expect far MORE Brits to visit. If they new it wouldn't take 21+ hours to get there. Eventually, it will happen. I'm wondering when and who might do it, now that the key limiting factor, B2, is going to finally go away.

As for timing, the HNL flight could also leave mid-afternoon, choosing a time that's less desirable slot wise. Blocked at 15 hours, you can leave London at 2PM and arrive HNL at 5PM, even leaving time for inter island connections. Returning, you could leave HNL at 7PM (leaving a full day for tourism or connections), and arrive LHR 6PM, which I believe allows you to connect into the EU reasonably.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineFloridaflyboy From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 2015 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 3775 times:

Quoting Targowski (Reply 4):

My thoughts exactly. I doubt too many people will be willing to fly half way around the world when the carribean is so much closer.



Good goes around!
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20751 posts, RR: 62
Reply 12, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 3763 times:

Even though HNL is only 1300 miles further from London than Thailand, which is a huge draw for those all over Europe despite its distance, Hawaiian tourism isn't setup for the classic purpose-built all-inclusive resort popular with the Brits. I don't see regularly scheduled nonstop flights between London and Honolulu succeeding at all.


International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineScotron11 From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2004, 1178 posts, RR: 3
Reply 13, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 3706 times:

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 10):

And if there were a non-stop, one would expect far MORE Brits to visit. If they new it wouldn't take 21+ hours to get there. Eventually, it will happen. I'm wondering when and who might do it, now that the key limiting factor, B2, is going to finally go away.

You are talking x-LON flight. What about the folk that live in places like EDI/GLA/MAN/BHX/NCL etc? Then you have to connect at LHR/LGW which can add 3-4hrs to that schedule.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 10):

62,827 UK tourists.

Is that airport arrivals? Or all UK tourists combined including cruiselines? Not saying Hawaii is'nt a good destination, but the main destinations for tourists x-UK-US are Florida, California, Nevada & East Coast, or a combination fly/drive package.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 10):

British citizens go to Southeast Asia on holiday en masse. That's as far as HNL. They go to South Africa and South America. They go to Australia and New Zealand. They travel long distances! And visiting an English speaking country where your currency buys a lot (as the pound does against the dollar) is desirable for Brits.

 checkmark 

Long-haul holidays are the fastest growing market right now. Places like the Maldives, Thailand (Indonesia was a big destination at one time) etc. So I would say, as previously mentioned, maybe someone like FirstChoice/ThomasCook could market Hawaii successfully or even FlyGlobespan, as they offer South Africa x-MAN.


User currently offlineHa763 From United States of America, joined Jan 2003, 3663 posts, RR: 5
Reply 14, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 3659 times:
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Quoting Scotron11 (Reply 13):
62,827 UK tourists.

Is that airport arrivals? Or all UK tourists combined including cruiselines?

Air arrivals only. I should have put the link to the statistics in my previous post.

http://www.hawaii.gov/dbedt/info/visitor-stats/


User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21544 posts, RR: 59
Reply 15, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 3407 times:

Quoting Ha763 (Reply 14):
Air arrivals only. I should have put the link to the statistics in my previous post.

And honyemooners make a big chunk of that. Generally higher yield than a typical "family" tourist. Once in a lifetime, nothing is too good for my woman even if it puts us into debt to start our marriage, stuff like that...  Wink



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineSoups From Ghana, joined Jun 2004, 3438 posts, RR: 14
Reply 16, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 3257 times:

How about passengers from Hawaii visiting europe or connecting to other parts of the world such as the middle east.
If you walk in a travel agent in the UK they do have special brochures on hawaii only.The brits will go ANYWHERE for their holidays as long as its got good beaches, the new destiantion now for the broits is Sanya in China. Who ever though going to china for a beach resort?



Next destinations, Suarabaya, beirut, paris, Accra
User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 57
Reply 17, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 3188 times:

Quoting Soups (Reply 16):
How about passengers from Hawaii visiting europe or connecting to other parts of the world such as the middle east.

Thats a rather small market........and connections to Europe are available via US hub cities.

Quoting Soups (Reply 16):
If you walk in a travel agent in the UK they do have special brochures on hawaii only.

Using fares negotiated with the US airlines or the major alliances.......those fares are quite low and the carriers agree to these low fares since the pax fill up a limited number of seats on a variety of flights. Moving some passengers though the system on lower fares is one thing.......dedicating one or more widebody aircraft to fly a long haul leisure route filled with such passengers is another. The thing is that London-Hawaii would be overwhemingly leisure traffic, and thats the problem.

Quoting Soups (Reply 16):
The brits will go ANYWHERE for their holidays as long as its got good beaches, the new destiantion now for the broits is Sanya in China

The Brits will go anywhere as long as its got good beaches AND IS CHEAP, and if an all-in package is available with unlimited free booze, even better. (Nothing anti-Brit, the same is true for all European holiday traffic.) Hawaii is simply too far and too expensive to compete in the market......yes, a limited number of UK/EU travellers will find their way to the Hawaiian islands, but not a big enough number to support and justify nonstop flights. And as I mentioned above, many EU/UK travellers combine a visit to the Hawaian islands with a tour of the US West Coast, a swing through the pacific, or a round the world tour. My guess it that the number of UK travellers making a trip that is exclusively to Hawaii is much lower than the figures quoted above (just a guess.)


------------

London-Honolulu sounds like a nice idea, and some great argruements and ideas were put foward in this thread...some really interesting stuff, but unless a UK tour operator/charter airline can figure out a way to offer all-in packages to Hawaii at prices that can compete with other exotic destinations available from the UK (everything from the Maldives to African beach resorts to Thailand), its unlikely that nonstop flights will be introduced, open skies or not.


User currently offlineSLCUT2777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 4112 posts, RR: 9
Reply 18, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 3126 times:

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 2):
Yes, Hawaii is beautiful, but its very far and very expensive for UK and EU passengers to travel to Hawaii for a couple of weeks in the sun.....dont forget how many alternatives there are for travellers looking for a beach holiday in an exotic destination. Spain, Turkey, Egypt, North Africa, the Canaries, Medeteranian resorts are all avaiable at low costs.....the Caribbean including Cancun is closer and cheaper as is Phuket, Thailand.....even a trip to Capetown is a faster and easier trip from the UK when compared to Hawaii.....it far and its lots of time zones away.

 checkmark  I think Hawaii to the U.K. and E.U. is what the Maldives and Seychelles is to those of us here in the U.S.A. as far as distance goes. Have you seen or heard of any direct flights from a U.S. airport to the Maldives? I highly doubt it. The Caribbean is closer and a place like PUJ or POP in the Dominican Republic is a place for folks from the U.K. and E.U. to go and be on holiday during the dead dark days of winter for 2-3 weeks for cheap. Our Canadian neighbors swear by it  biggrin !

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 17):
but unless a UK tour operator/charter airline can figure out a way to offer all-in packages to Hawaii at prices that can compete with other exotic destinations available from the UK (everything from the Maldives to African beach resorts to Thailand), its unlikely that nonstop flights will be introduced, open skies or not.

I think this sums it up very well. If folks from the U.K. or E.U. really want to go to Hawaii, there are plenty of connections they can get at especially here in the western U.S. I'd very much love to go to the Maldives or Seychelles one day not to mention Tahiti (something much more realistic for me living in SLC--plenty of DL connections to LAX to pick up a TN flight), but I know I'll have to go and connect to there via one of the European hubs or DXB. This is something that is 12 full time zones away from SLC, not to mention at least 2 full days worth of flights.



DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
User currently offlineSLCUT2777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 4112 posts, RR: 9
Reply 19, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 2973 times:

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 2):
The best analogy that I can think of is Air Tahiti Nui's lack of success on its JFK-PPT route.....as magnificent as Tahiti is, there are very few people on the east coast of the US that are going to by pass the Caribbean, the Bahamas and Mexico and fly on to Tahiti for a holiday in the sun....its simply too far away.

People frequently ask why DL doesn't do a NYC-JFK flight; this is the reason. As for TN, they are too focused on the NYC market being tha largest in North America (U.S./Canada) and would actually do much better hypothetically if they did the second PPT route from SFO or even YVR or splitting it between the two on opposite days. JFK has been a hard sell and a money loser for them I've read in too many places.



DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
User currently offlineUAL777UK From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2005, 3356 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 2932 times:

Its an interesting thread, I have had the good luck to visit the Hawaiian Islands on a few occasions and without doubt I am sure a lot of people from these Islands would love to visit them, although, I am a dubious about a non stop flight and in particular I suspect it might just be a low yield route with out much call for J but hey, who knows!!.....I would love to see it!

User currently offlineTommyBP251b From Germany, joined Apr 2006, 460 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 2901 times:

Quoting Ha763 (Reply 8):
We did see non-stop service by LH back in the early 1990s, but that didn't work out.

Are you sure about this? I red something like this here already, which later came out as not true. The only pictures of LH in HNL here in the Database are of MD-11 during the round the world Cargo flight.

Regards. Tom



Tom from Cologne
User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7707 posts, RR: 25
Reply 22, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 2864 times:

Hawaii has a very selelctive market. I really dont think a nonstop to Europe would work. One of the reasons flights from LAX and SFO to Hawaii are so successful is that we are very close. Hawaii is closer to us than the Carribiean. As a travel consultant in Los Angeles, I Cant remember the last time I had anyone inquire about the Carribiean. I get multiple Hawaii quotes a day. I have collegues in NYC, Washington DC, Atlanta, and Chicago that I have talked to and they tell me its the other way around there. People there tend to favor the Carribiean more and dont go to Hawaii much. My guess would be that when people want a relaxing vacation, they want to travel as little as possible (for the most part).

Im not saying that there isnt a market from Europe to Hawaii, Im sure there is, but look at the trouble some domestic (USA) markets have had maintaining flight to Hawaii. DL cut back OGG to one flight a day (the remaining flight is from LAX, not a DL hub), CO axed OGG (at the end, it was only flying from LAX), and even SFO is set to lose a DL flight to HNL. I really dont think (unless its a charter) the airlines would be wise to start a nonstop from Europe to HNL.



Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 57
Reply 23, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 2807 times:

Quoting Ha763 (Reply 8):
We did see non-stop service by LH back in the early 1990s, but that didn't work out.

LH ran a handful of training/proving flights with the A342 from FRA to HNL......no scheduled passenger service was ever offered.

The only flight that ever operated from Honolulu to anywhere in Europe was the very shortlived Western Airlines flight that operated HNL-ANC-LGW....the flight operated 2 days a week (I think) with a DC-10-10 (yes, a series 10 aircraft)......there were load restrictions on the ANC-LGW segment, but it never really mattered since loads on the flight were so minimal. The flight operated for a couple of seasons and was dropped due to lack of interest.

This was many many years ago (I am thinking late 1970s) and times have changed......but, as I have stated above, I just dont see any airline opening up a London-Honolulu flight on a nonstop basis.


User currently offlineHa763 From United States of America, joined Jan 2003, 3663 posts, RR: 5
Reply 24, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 2794 times:
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Quoting TommyBP251b (Reply 21):
Quoting Ha763 (Reply 8):
We did see non-stop service by LH back in the early 1990s, but that didn't work out.

Are you sure about this? I red something like this here already, which later came out as not true. The only pictures of LH in HNL here in the Database are of MD-11 during the round the world Cargo flight.

Regards. Tom

Yes. I have posted the information here before. LH announced the route in Oct. 1992 and flew the route for about 2 years with an A340-200. As the state does with any new non-stop international service, there was a special arrival greeting with the governor and mayor in attendance, a hula performance, and a lei for every pax.


25 BA380 : I concur with most posters in that Hawaii is just a hell of a long way from London. According to my estimates, a flight from LHR to HNL would take abo
26 SLCUT2777 : There is even debate on whether to keep direct Hawaii flights on DL to and from the SLC hub. Many including myself seriously question the yield on su
27 CALPSAFltSkeds : Dutchjet is correct on the Western service LON-ANC-HNL and there was little market. WA few it for a while with what they called a DC10-10 with a "low-
28 Ikramerica : People need to read the Hawaii tourism documents before making all these blanket assessments. Brits average 11 day stays in Hawaii. There are 200 non-
29 CALPSAFltSkeds : The route could be operated now with a 772ER or an Airbus. So, maybe the current aircraft are too large for the market and that's why it's not be flo
30 FlyDreamliner : The question is though, A) is there enough routine traffic on this route? B) would there be any cargo revenue (would the aircraft not be able to carry
31 Post contains images Dutchjet : But there are many very valid points made in this thread that give you the reasons as to why there is no nonstop flight....the most important one to
32 Mariner : Whether it is valid or not, LAX has acquired a dreadful reputation among some folk from Down Under who transit there on their way to Europe. I know a
33 AeroWesty : Honolulu was only a U.S. gateway in Bermuda II for flights by U.K. carriers to U.K. territories in Asia, plus a few other points in the Pacific. Not
34 Sokol : Northwest Airlines has service in Amsterdam AMS, Frankfurt FRA, London LGW, and Paris CDG. so Northwest can do it with A330-300's, Or A330-200's to Ha
35 BCALBOY : I used to check-in that flight and the problem certainly wasn-t the loads ....there were loads of denied boardings...the problem was the yields....li
36 EWRCabincrew : When did we have a DC-10-10 freighter? I know we had the -10s for passengers, but never as freighter for cargo specific(eventhough it they were CF an
37 RJdxer : Maybe if we started calling them the Sandwich Islands.....
38 Post contains images SLCUT2777 : Problem is, too many folks in the U.K. might then confuse Hawaii with the South Sandwich Islands in the south Atlantic between the Falklands and Anta
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