Juventus From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 2835 posts, RR: 2 Posted (6 years 2 months 10 hours ago) and read 3482 times:
Just wondering what routes these airlines flew back in the day, before air traffic between the US and Mexico grew to where it is today. Thanx for any info....
Aanyc From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 4, posted (6 years 2 months 9 hours ago) and read 3442 times:
When I was at EA I remember working JFK/ACA. I think it was on an L10 although it may have been an A300. Also, I think we had some service to Mexico from ATL when I was based there.
Xa744 From Mexico, joined Mar 2004, 734 posts, RR: 3 Reply 5, posted (6 years 2 months 9 hours ago) and read 3422 times:
Pan Am had the following network out of Mexico, during the 50s, 60s, 70s and 80s:
MEX-HOU with DC-6, DC-7, DC-8, 720, 707
MEX-IAH with 707, 747
MEX-MIA with 707, 747
MEX-JFK with 747, DC-10, L15
MEX-GUA with 707
MEX-LAX with 727
MID-MIA with 707, 720
MID-GUA with 707
Note: The peak of PA´s ops at MEX were from 1979 to 1985, when the carrier had up to 12 daily operations to different destinations with so many wonderful and different types of aircraft.
Pan Am, occasionally, had flights to MCO and also extended the " Banana Split " flight, as it used to be called among Pan Am employees in Mexico, to SJO and PTY.
I miss my first flight ever, on a Pan American DC-6B, of course.
Pan Am, what a wonderful and fine airline during those fabulous sixties !!!
Best regards
P.S. Juventus, thanks for bringing good memories to my Saturday !
No matter how you fly...just never get your wings clipped !
Juventus From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 2835 posts, RR: 2 Reply 7, posted (6 years 2 months 9 hours ago) and read 3408 times:
Quoting Xa744 (Reply 5): Pan Am had the following network out of Mexico, during the 50s, 60s, 70s and 80s:
MEX-HOU with DC-6, DC-7, DC-8, 720, 707
MEX-IAH with 707, 747
MEX-MIA with 707, 747
MEX-JFK with 747, DC-10, L15
MEX-GUA with 707
MEX-LAX with 727
MID-MIA with 707, 720
MID-GUA with 707
Bluemeatball From United States of America, joined Oct 1999, 174 posts, RR: 0 Reply 11, posted (6 years 2 months 4 hours ago) and read 3252 times:
In Aug of 1970 I flew on a PA 720 flight 502 which was a Saturday only frequency that originated at VCP then GIG, BSB, PTY, GUA, MEX, and finally IAH. You had the option of changing at PTY to fly on to LAX and SFO.
PA also flew MEX-TPA-MIA during the 70s before deregulation and during the 60s there was also a Merida-MSY flight.
Cody From United States of America, joined May 1999, 1918 posts, RR: 10 Reply 13, posted (6 years 2 months 3 hours ago) and read 3224 times:
Eastern's JFK-MEX-ACA route later became a 757 before being dropped entirely. I think the route went to Continental for a while during the Texas Air deal. I believe Continental even flew Eastern Mexico routes from ATL as well.
For a brief spell, Eastern flew to Merida from TPA.
STT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16256 posts, RR: 52 Reply 16, posted (6 years 2 months 3 hours ago) and read 3205 times:
One interesting thing about Merida, Eastern during the '80s and up until they closed shop in '91 had this Brown wall paper around their gate areas and behind some ticket counters which listed where they flew. I remember reading Merida all the time and knowing that at that moment they were not flying to Merida.
Juventus From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 2835 posts, RR: 2 Reply 17, posted (6 years 2 months 3 hours ago) and read 3194 times:
Quoting STT757 (Reply 16): One interesting thing about Merida, Eastern during the '80s and up until they closed shop in '91 had this Brown wall paper around their gate areas and behind some ticket counters which listed where they flew. I remember reading Merida all the time and knowing that at that moment they were not flying to Merida.
Looks like back in the day, Merida and Acapulco had more service than Cabo and Puerto Vallarta...
Stirling From Italy, joined Jun 2004, 3943 posts, RR: 27 Reply 18, posted (6 years 2 months 2 hours ago) and read 3158 times:
PanAm once had a sizeable domestic operation within Mexico, operated by not one (1), but two (2) of its many world-wide subsidiaries.
One airline was owned at 100% outright, the other a 40% interest was maintained.
First. Owned completely by PanAm was CMA (Compania Mexicana de Aviacion) or later; Mexicana, sold to Mexican interests in 1968.
CMA flew most of the major routes of the time, I will list just a few of the bigger ones.
Los Angeles-Mexicali-Hermosillo-Mazatlan-Durango-Leon-Mexico City
Nogales-Hermosillo-Ciudad Obregon-Los Mochis-Culican-Mazatlan
Juarez-Chihuahua-Parral-Torreon-Durango
Brownsville-Tampico-Tuxpan-Veracruz-San Jeronimo-Tapachula-Guatemala City
Miami-Havana-Cozumel-Merida-Belize-Puerto Barrios-Guatemala City
Merida-Campeche-Carmen-Villahermosa-Minatitlan-Veracruz-Mexico City
The other airline PanAm had involvement with was Aeronaves de Mexico which came along in the 30's.
"La Tripa", (as Juan Trippe was known in Mexico quite derogatorially) bought 40% in 1940, after he could not help but notice the overwhelming success of their singular route; Acapulco-Mexico City.
At the time, Acapulco was a sleepy little seaside town, with some awe-inspiring beaches....
The government of President Aleman, not liking La Tripa's airline influence in his country, forced a merger between Aeronaves de Mexico and 2 other smaller airlines in the 50s, squeezing out the American to produce a true competitor to the wholy-owned CMA, which was eventually sold off in bits and pieces, being finally gone by the late 60's. (One of those airlines Aeronaves de Mexico merged with was LAMSA, which could trace it's history back to United Airlines...a partnership which never worked because United could never gain the domestic route authority in the US to link up the two airlines as PanAm had done in Miami, Los Angeles, and Houston)
As a side note, PanAm has had a hand in many airlines of the world; it's interest ranging from 30% to 100%, no corner of the globe untouched: Ariana Afghan, Panair do Brasil, LACSA (Costa Rica), LANICA (Nicaragua), SAHSA (Honduras), COPA (Panama), AVENSA (Venezuela), Aeronaves de Mexico, Cubana, SCADTA (later to become AVIANCA), Peruvian Airways, West Indian (Dom. Rep.), AVIATECA (Guatemala), MEA (Lebanon), Philippine Airlines, CNAC (China National Air Corp/CAAC/Air China), Pacific Alaska, Alaska Southern, Bahamas Airways (Sold to BSAA, British South American Airways-BOAC), Chilean Airways
PanAm's own routes to Mexico began with a flight from Brownsville, TX to Mexico City, that continued on for points south; Guatemala City, Panama City, Cali, Guayaquil, Lima, Antofagasto, Santiago, Cordoba, and finally Buenos Aires.
The other route to Mexico City began in Miami, stopping in Havana and Merida along the way.
By the 1970s, PanAm was operating daily 707 nonstops to Houston, Tampa, and Guatemala City. By the 80's, Houston was double daily, the 707 replaced by the 727 and the added 747 which continued on for JFK.
Quoting STT757 (Reply 9): I think Eastern also flew Texas to Mexico City, either IAH, Corpus Christi or San Antonio.
I cannot find any record of that....Eastern began service to Mexico from New Orleans.
The airlines that flew from Texas to Mexico were originally American, Braniff, and Texas International.
One of the very first routes Braniff utilized their newly arrived (and special-ordered*) 707s on was ORD-DAL-SAT-MEX...and sometimes ACA.
Later, nonstops were added to both MEX and ACA from DAL (DFW)
American had a similar history.
Texas International's Mexico service was initially from the Rio Grande Valley, to Veracruz and Tampico, but not to Mexico City, that came later.
Continental's FIRST try at the Mexico market was actually not from Houston, but rather El Paso....when they couldn't make the routes work, Frontier gave it shot...which were two-stop flights from their Denver hub, the other stop being Albuquerque.
*Boeing built a special version of the 707, as they did for QANTAS with the more famous -138.
The -220 was extermally identical to the -120 except for the engines...instead of the standard-issue JT3C, the -220 had the much more powerful JT4A-3...which was also used in such military aircraft as the Republic F-105, Convair F-106, and Lockheed U-2.
The 707-220, of which only 5 were built, (all for Braniff) had an increase in thrust from the original 13,500lbs, to 15,800lbs. (Of course, the -220 became redundant when the -120B came out...which had 17,000lbs of thrust per engine....but Braniff needed a hot rod, and they needed it yesterday!) The -220s did not last long in the Braniff fleet, the long-haul duties being taken over by the DC-8.
The -220's MTOW was 10,000lbs less than the -120, from 128.5 tons to 123.5 tons.
But, Max Range was the same, but Initial Rate of Climb doubled, and the runway needed for takeoff was reduced from about 10,000 feet to around 8,000ft, or around 20% (Hard for an absolute answer on that because of altitude.....but they needed every inch at MEX)
PA resumed MEX-TPA after their merger with NA, flying DC10's on the route, then I think down to 727 before dropping it. They did not operate this in Spring/Summer 1980, I think they picked it up for a while later, but it didn't last long.
My hazy memory is that this only existed during the brief intervening time between PA flying it with 707's in the 70's and again after swallowing up NA in the 80's -- something about PA having permanent rights that EA could only use if PA declined to use them?
OzarkD9S From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4680 posts, RR: 23 Reply 22, posted (6 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 3085 times:
AeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 18833 posts, RR: 64 Reply 23, posted (6 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 3072 times:
Quoting XA744 (Reply 8): P.S. Pan Am never flew to Guadalajara.
I believe they did (or it was in conjunction with one of the partners Stirling described above). I've an old hand-typed itinerary from a trip one of my great aunt and uncles took to Mexico that had some Pan Am flights on it. I'll have to look it up. In the meantime, Pan Am in the Americas circa 1940:
Jimbo83 From United States of America, joined Sep 2006, 29 posts, RR: 0 Reply 24, posted (6 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 3064 times:
I think Pan Am flew SAT-MEX in the late 80's or very early 90's before they went out of business. I remember seeing a Pan Am 727 at the customs gate in SAT many times and I always assumed it was a MEX flight. I could be wrong though.
25 MSYtristar: I'm fairly certain that the PA 72S you saw was operating the scheduled SAT-MSY-JFK service (which directly competed with TW...same routing, same airc
26 DesertAir: [quote=STT757,reply=9]Pan Am was the dominant carrier to Central America, as there was no Mexicana yet, and Aviateca, TACA and Lacsa ops were limited
27 Cody: I just did some research and Eastern did, in fact, fly nonstop from SAT to MEX throughout the mid 1980's. Also, it appears the JFK-MEX/ACA route ended
28 Stirling: I show PA fairly consistent on the run before, during and after the merger. First with the 707, then 727. The 707 Bible I have by Stewart Wilson show
29 Civilav: Juventus, That is not a typo. As far as I can remember (I myself flew the route with my parents in July 1967), Pan American flew a 2-weekly (among ot
30 BinMonster: SAT operations for EA and PA EA did have a SAT-MEX flight. Then CO took over the route. PA did fly SAT. Not to MEX. They gave SAT-MSY-JFK a try. Brani
31 Juventus: Thanx for the info Civilav ( se agradece)
32 Notdownnlocked: Quoting Cody (Reply 27): I just did some research and Eastern did, in fact, fly nonstop from SAT to MEX throughout the mid 1980's. You are absolutely
33 Stirling: Well it went back farther than that...I can trace it back to the 60's, on a DC-7, then 707. San Antonion for a time was the only Mexico gateway Brani
34 CitationJet: Eastern 1982: PanAm 1986: TWA 2000: .
35 N200WN: I'm glad that Cody and BinMonster both cleared up the SAT - Mexico operations and confirmed that EA did fly SAT-MEX. Other airlines that have operated
36 CitationJet: San Antonio was BN's only gateway to Mexico in 1963. A single 707 round trip per day SAT-MEX. One way First class fare was $54.00. One way coach was
37 BinMonster: I still need some help with the Braniff SAT - ACA I beluve it was Braniff II, since they were flying 727's. Red White and Blue paint. 1984 or 1985
38 Notdownnlocked: "http://dotlibrary1.specialcollection.net/scripts/ws.dll?websearch&site=dot_orders" This shows the EA SAT/DFW-MEX/ACA flights although EA never flew D
39 Tracker: I believe TW flew the LAX-MEX route in the mid-70's. I think it was a 707 when I flew it.
40 Timz: Checked OAGs for 2-4-8-10 1984 and 3-5-10 1985, and 2/86-- the only direct SAT-ACA flights were MX 1-stops or 2-stops.
41 Juventus: Yes Braniff flew DFW-MEX-ACA. I just looked at their former route map. Their Latin network was strong in South America, but in Mexico and Central Ame
42 WDBRR: Didn't EA drop Mexico due to some strike there? I remember reading something 20 years ago in SystemOne.
43 Jetdeltamsy: You sure about that? I lived in New Orleans when TWA started service to the city and don't ever recall them flying to Mexico City. I remember the fla
44 DesertAir: I followed TWA's developments during the last few years of its existence. They did fly the MSY-MEX route for a while. The route never developed for t
45 EasternSon: It was definitely an L1011. My father flew one in and was on layover there when I was born. My mother is still kind of bitter that he was sitting on
46 Cody: I just talked to a former EAL Flight Attendant who told me Eastern flew from IAD-MEX using a DC-8 back in the 1970's.
47 OzarkD9S: TWA did fly JFK-MSY-SAT and JFK-MSY-MEX. CO and DL held NYC-MEX authority so TW had to do the MSY stop. It was timed for European connections, but la
48 WA707atMSP: TWA never flew to Mexico on a scheduled basis before deregulation. However, Western Airlines flew LAX-MEX with a mix of DC-6Bs, 707s, 720s, 727s, and
49 MSYtristar: There was much fanfare in regards to the MEX flight down here when it was started in 1999. Something that hurt it was its 8:20pm departure time from
50 Jmy007: TWA was a later player in the Mexico market. I believe the flights started in or around 1995, with a few routes out of STL, like CUN, Ixtapa, and I th
51 DesertAir: I flew Western to Mexico City from Los Angeles in 1985...the trip to Mexico was on a DC-10 and the return was on a 727.
52 SJUSXM: From the TWA schedule from 2000 (the same one as the route map from above by CitationJet) CUN-STL X135 12:55 3:58 flight68 this is a M80 and thats it
53 Viscount724: And only 4 were delivered to Braniff. The first 707-220 crashed October 19, 1959 near Seattle on an acceptance/training flight a day or two before it
54 TimeToFly: I remember that back in September, 1999 TWA flew from STL to MEX, arriving at night and departing back to STL at 7:00 the next morning. I don't know t
55 Juventus: does the 727-200 have the range for STL-MEX?? (even with MEX's altitude)
56 TimeToFly: Yeap, I don't see any problems for a 727 to fly the 1239 nautical miles between St Louis and Mexico City. Cheers.
57 LGA777: Interesting thread everybody. During the late 60's thru early 70's Pan Am's TPA-MEX service actually operated MIA-TPA-MID-MEX although the Merida stop
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