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Safety Violation?  
User currently offlineBA84 From Canada, joined Aug 2004, 419 posts, RR: 3
Posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 5381 times:
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The Captain is not wearing his shoulder belt.
Is this a safety violation, or is it allowed?


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Photo © Ingo Lang



27 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineIahflyr From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 4790 posts, RR: 22
Reply 1, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 5357 times:

In the U.S. the shoulder belts are only required for ground movement, take-off and landings, otherwise they can be stowed as the Captain has done in the picture.


Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
User currently offlineBA84 From Canada, joined Aug 2004, 419 posts, RR: 3
Reply 2, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 5344 times:
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IAHflyr,

Thanks for info on that point.

BA84


User currently offlineMD88Captain From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 1330 posts, RR: 20
Reply 3, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 5194 times:

I actually didn't know it was required for ground movements. I usually just put them on for takeoff and landing.

User currently offlineSkyexRamper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 5102 times:

Quoting MD88Captain (Reply 3):
I actually didn't know it was required for ground movements. I usually just put them on for takeoff and landing.

LOL...wow....     I recall that is an FAR you learn while you're getting your private license, atleast in the last 10 years.

[Edited 2007-03-25 00:10:35]

User currently offlineIAHFLYR From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 4790 posts, RR: 22
Reply 5, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 5095 times:

Quoting MD88Captain (Reply 3):
I actually didn't know it was required for ground movements

Me either till I read it in some obscure reg about shoulder harnesses.  Smile



Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
User currently offlineSirOmega From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 735 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 5053 times:

Quoting Iahflyr (Reply 1):
In the U.S. the shoulder belts are only required for ground movement, take-off and landings, otherwise they can be stowed as the Captain has done in the picture.



Quoting From the Pic's Caption:
Banking hard over the Mediterranean Sea after takeoff from runway 25L on our flight from BCN to SZG.

So how quickly after takeoff is it allowable? 1500 AGL? 10,000 ft?


User currently offlineZBBYLW From Canada, joined Nov 2006, 1986 posts, RR: 6
Reply 7, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 5019 times:

Quoting SirOmega (Reply 6):
10,000 ft?

This is the usual altitude that things happen, sterile cockpit etc..... etc....



Keep the shinny side up!
User currently offlineCaptainTim From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2004, 431 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 5003 times:

The FAR Part 29 states only during taxi, take off and landing, this guy seems like he's just taken off..

he's set to climb to FL190 maybe he's already reached 10,000+ and he's climbing 1200FPM on the VSI so.. probably he is allowed to take off his seatbelt

hey we can complain about the cell phone at the bottom of the picture  Wink  Silly



Gulfstream Planeview Cockpit: "why have hundreds of buttons when a CCD does the same thing and more?"
User currently offlineACDC8 From Canada, joined Mar 2005, 7642 posts, RR: 35
Reply 9, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 4993 times:

Quoting CaptainTim (Reply 8):
hey we can complain about the cell phone at the bottom of the picture

Must be a company phone, I'm sure most pilots have better taste and can afford a nicer mobile then that one ....  Silly



A Grumpy German Is A Sauerkraut
User currently offlineMD88Captain From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 1330 posts, RR: 20
Reply 10, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 4953 times:

We do not even have shoulder harness on the checklist anymore. And it used to be on the Before Takeoff. I've been in violation for many, many years... and probably will be for many more.

User currently offlineCaptainTim From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2004, 431 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 4598 times:

i think FAR states shoulder harness is not required! but says put it on if there are shoulder harnesses available....

= stupid FARs... haha



Gulfstream Planeview Cockpit: "why have hundreds of buttons when a CCD does the same thing and more?"
User currently offlineBaron52ta From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2005, 211 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 4490 times:

Quoting CaptainTim (Reply 8):
The FAR Part 29 states only during taxi, take off and landing, this guy seems like he's just taken off..

The Federal Air Regs don't apply anyway as it is not an American company ,who ever is governing body makes their rules. The FAA license is all but useless outside the USA or US registered aircraft.


User currently offlineNrcnyc From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 111 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 4447 times:

You mean we don't controll everything? This news to me.





That FAR was on my private pilot written test.


User currently offlineZeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 9113 posts, RR: 75
Reply 14, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 4355 times:

Quoting BA84 (Thread starter):
Is this a safety violation, or is it allowed?

The airline would follow the rules of the Letové prevádzkové služby Slovenskej republiky (Slovakia CAA) which says that the seat belt shall be worn at all times by a pilot, with the addition of the shoulder harness during takeoff and landing phases.

To me it looks like the cabin seat belt sign is also in AUTO on the overhead panel.



We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
User currently offlineA330 From Belgium, joined May 1999, 649 posts, RR: 7
Reply 15, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 4040 times:

The Captain is actually one of SkyEurope's finest and also the Head of Training. Top guy.
Why do these teen plane spotters always think bad things when seeing a flight-deck picture... sad and one of the reasons why a lot of my collegues don't allow you guys into our "office" anymore.
Thomas, if you read this, hope all is fine with you!!

an ex. Collegue



Shiek!
User currently offlineAirbelgium From Belgium, joined Sep 2005, 9 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 3541 times:

I totally agree with A330: It seems that every time a picture of a flightdeck appears on this forum it is put under the loop and somebody will come up with something bad or "safety" related. I guess it's a good thing we don't allow pictures at our workplace...

User currently offlineMCOflyer From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 8677 posts, RR: 16
Reply 17, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 3206 times:

Quoting Airbelgium (Reply 16):
I guess it's a good thing we don't allow pictures at our workplace...

Agreed. At least that captain knows what hes doing.

MCOflyer



Never be afraid to stand up for who you are.
User currently offlineBohlman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 2375 times:

I actually thought that BA84's question was phrased in a very polite way. He simply had a question. Rather than some people here, who will post questions as a scandalized accusation (look at this blatant safety violation, how can you get away with this?!?) he asked it in a civil way and immediately thanked the poster who answered him. Not everybody knows everything about flying.

User currently offlineTACAA320 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 2317 times:

Quoting A330 (Reply 15):
The Captain is actually one of SkyEurope's finest and also the Head of Training. Top guy.

No single doubt about that.

Quoting Airbelgium (Reply 16):
I totally agree with A330: It seems that every time a picture of a flightdeck appears on this forum it is put under the loop and somebody will come up with something bad or "safety" related. I guess it's a good thing we don't allow pictures at our workplace...

This thread is about a valid question from a fellow A.netter.


User currently offlineNyskymasters From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 2263 times:

Quoting CaptainTim (Reply 8):
The FAR Part 29 states only during taxi, take off and landing, this guy seems like he's just taken off..

United States FAR Part 29 only applies to airworthiness standards for rotorcraft, ie. helicopters.

US FAR Part 91 would apply, specifically CFR 91.105b which states "Each required flight crewmember of a U.S. registered civil aircraft shall, during takeoff and landing, keep the shoulder harness fastened while at his or her assigned duty station. This does not apply if- (1) The seat at the crewmember's station is not equipped with a shoulder harness; or (2) The crewmember would be unable to perform required duties with the shoulder harness fastened.

It was once explained to me by the FAA that takeoff is generally considered to extend to flap retraction (the end off fourth segment climb) at which time you would be considered to be into "climb." ( Too much technicality if you ask me.)

Just thought I would pass along what the FAR's actally say for US operations. If anybody knows where to find this "obscure regulation" please pass it along. I would be interested to read it.


User currently offlineTACAA320 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 1931 times:

Quoting BA84 (Thread starter):
Is this a safety violation, or is it allowed?

Since this is a picture of an European[not American] aircraft, flying over Spain what is the treatment given by the European authorities to this theme?


User currently offlineChiGB1973 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 1616 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 1931 times:

Quoting MD88Captain (Reply 10):
We do not even have shoulder harness on the checklist anymore. And it used to be on the Before Takeoff. I've been in violation for many, many years... and probably will be for many more.

So, you don't wear the shoulder harness?

If not, shouldn't you be more concerned about passenger safety? If you do hit something and get knocked out from the first impact simply because you weren't wearing your shoulder harness, you endanger any number of people in the plane not being able to attempt to control the plane, in the event you could, to prevent hitting something else or steering away from water, other aircraft or any number of obstacles.

Again, maybe I took your comment out of context and you do wear your shoulder harness when you know you should.

As a paramedic, I see people who are dead or seriously injured just because they were not wearing their seat belt. It is subjective, because I don't know what would have happened. Through education and experience, I can make the assumption that someone getting thrown through a windshield or my most recent fatality, the driver through the passenger side window, would have fared better staying in the seat.

M


User currently offlineBA84 From Canada, joined Aug 2004, 419 posts, RR: 3
Reply 23, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 1884 times:
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Quoting A330 (Reply 15):
Why do these teen plane spotters always think bad things when seeing a flight-deck picture... sad and one of the reasons why a lot of my collegues don't allow you guys into our "office" anymore.

It seems my topic has annoyed our Belgian pilots. I'm not a teen, but 61, flying for many years as a passenger.
I was recently invited into the cockpit of an Air Canada A-320 during the cruise segment. I noticed both pilots were wearing their shoulder belts. The topic didn't come up, as we were talking about other stuff.

The reason I posted this thread, was that I noticed in the photo, that the FO was wearing his belts, but the captain was not. From the angle of the cockpit, it's obvious the aircraft is not at cruise. Hence my question. I certainly didn't mean to tell you guys your job. I merely asked if it was allowed. As you know, there are many parts of the world where pilots cut corners, and omit procedures, usually for economic reasons, but also because of machismo, or in cultures where the captain does it his way, or else.

Quoting Bohlman (Reply 18):
I actually thought that BA84's question was phrased in a very polite way. He simply had a question. Rather than some people here, who will post questions as a scandalized accusation (look at this blatant safety violation, how can you get away with this?!?) he asked it in a civil way and immediately thanked the poster who answered him. Not everybody knows everything about flying.

Thank you, Bohlman, and TACAA320, for your support.

BA84


User currently offlineA330 From Belgium, joined May 1999, 649 posts, RR: 7
Reply 24, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 1824 times:

BA84,

Normal procedure is that at 10.000ft., shoulder harnessess come off except when workload is too high or flight conditions require us to wear them.
However, in good weather, some crew undo the belts after cleanup of the aircraft (flaps & gear). This is not dangerous and has no safety implications.
I presume that in this case, the FO is a little late in undoing his belts rather than the Capt. was too early, as the captain in the picture is partly responsible for the SkyEurope SOP's.
I was a bit harsh to you earlier on, my apologies.



Shiek!
25 TACAA320 : You're more than welcome!
26 Post contains images Legacy135 : Absolutely agree with you guys! So sad to see ........... a kind and open minded crew allows an aviation enthusiast to the flight deck who posts then
27 BA84 : Apology accepted. No offence taken. Regards, BA84
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