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Any News About DL ATL-PVG?  
User currently offlineTwolz2rn From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 450 posts, RR: 0
Posted (7 years 6 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 3241 times:

So, if memory serves me correct, DL is supposed to start ATL-PVG March 25th...or is that the date that they are supposed to find out?

Why don't they even offer booking options to PVG? I am going to PVG this summer and DL currently do not offer flights if you book on-line with any skyteam member...whats the deal with that?


Thanks

[Edited 2007-03-25 00:41:16]

28 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineCOEWRNJ From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 1064 posts, RR: 19
Reply 1, posted (7 years 6 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 3228 times:

DL does not and will not be serving PVG with its own metal for at least another year. The lost out on it two years ago and weren't eligible this year. I would think that you could try them to Seoul and then KE to PVG but not sure how that works. As i said though you can't ride DL metal to PVG and even when they do enter China I believe they want PEK from ATL.

User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16872 posts, RR: 51
Reply 2, posted (7 years 6 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 3220 times:

2007 UAL awarded IAD-PEK
2006 AA awarded ORD-PVG
2005 CO awarded EWR-PEK

Im not sure what the requirments are for carriers to bid for the 2008 China authorities, or when the process gets started.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 57
Reply 3, posted (7 years 6 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 3212 times:

In the 2007 round, the US carriers that applied for new services were limited to those that already served China.....that wont be the case in 2008, thus Delta is applying and US will apply for PHL-PVG (they are already talking about leasing A343s, a bit optimistic, I think). I assume that NW, CO and AA will resubmit their applications next year.

Arent there ongoing negotiations between the US and China to futher liberalize air service between the two countries? I though that there was talk that more frequencies would be available on an accelerated schedule......anyone have additional information?


User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (7 years 6 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 3189 times:

I'd be surprised if China accelerates the schedule right now...

DL has already said they want ATL-PVG.

The formal route case is not open yet although DL and US have filed documents saying they are interested.


User currently offlineEvan767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 2957 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (7 years 6 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 3136 times:

I don't see how DL won't get this over NW, US, AA, and CO... DL is the only one that doesn't serve China besides US, and DL is a MAJOR player in the international market. US getting the China route? A340's? I am not even going to argue with that. DL should get this.


The proper term is "on final" not "on finals" bud...
User currently offlineA330323X From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 3039 posts, RR: 43
Reply 6, posted (7 years 6 months 17 hours ago) and read 3025 times:

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 4):
The formal route case is not open yet although DL and US have filed documents saying they are interested.

Not just DL and US, but also HA, AA, CO, NW have filed the same papers.



I'm the expert on here on two things, neither of which I care about much anymore.
User currently onlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32788 posts, RR: 72
Reply 7, posted (7 years 6 months 17 hours ago) and read 3022 times:

Quoting Evan767 (Reply 5):
I don't see how DL won't get this over NW, US, AA, and CO... DL is the only one that doesn't serve China besides US, and DL is a MAJOR player in the international market. US getting the China route? A340's? I am not even going to argue with that. DL should get this.

Delta is the front runner, but nobody thought that United Airlines should have won either. If American Airlines goes for Los Angeles-Beijing, for example, they will give Delta's application serious competition.m Continental is going for Newark-Shanghai for the third time, and DOT might suddenly give in. I think Delta is going to win it, but it isn't a shoe-in.

[Edited 2007-03-25 18:26:48]


a.
User currently offlineSLCUT2777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 4068 posts, RR: 11
Reply 8, posted (7 years 6 months 5 hours ago) and read 2891 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 7):
I think Delta is going to win it, but it isn't a shoe-in.

It is theirs to screw up.
If this route authority between the U.S. and China is accelerated further say to every 6 months, what other cities do you see getting direct China service from a U.S. flag carrier?



DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7615 posts, RR: 24
Reply 9, posted (7 years 6 months 5 hours ago) and read 2878 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 7):
Delta is the front runner, but nobody thought that United Airlines should have won either. If American Airlines goes for Los Angeles-Beijing, for example, they will give Delta's application serious competition.m Continental is going for Newark-Shanghai for the third time, and DOT might suddenly give in. I think Delta is going to win it, but it isn't a shoe-in.

Very well said. DL is in the leed, but its not in the bag. In my opinion the things DL has going for it are:

1) Biggest US carrier with no service to China.
2) ATL is the worlds busiest airport.

In my opinion the things that arent so great:

1) ATL's horrible geographic position in relation to connections being made from Asia to the US and vice-versa. Everyone not from the deep south or Florida will have to back track.
2) ATL's almost nonexistant local market to China.

If LAX somehow gets thrown into the mix (which I dont think it will), I think it will complicate matters even more. LAX is by far the largest market from the US to China. I think it goes without saying that CO will try for EWR-PVG, and NYC is the second largest market to China.

Bottom line is this: If the DOT sees this years race as an issue among the airlines, then it will be DL. If they see it as an issue among the market served (which they did this last time around), then DL wont get it.



Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently onlineCALPSAFltSkeds From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 2635 posts, RR: 9
Reply 10, posted (7 years 6 months 5 hours ago) and read 2862 times:

It looks like the award has alternated between PEK and PVG. If so, then PVG will win in 2008. Is that why DL and US want PVG instead of going for PEK first?

Looking at the past three years, maybe DL will get it as no carrier has received two awards in the past three years.

I can't image US getting it with PHL-PVG regardless of the aircraft choice. PHL, along with ATL must have a low O&D for China in comparison to EWR. Connections for ATL, EWR and PHL all involve many backhaul city pairs with PHL undoubtedly offering fewer connections than ATL or EWR.

I'm hoping CO finally gets EWR-PVG to serve by far the largest O&D market of any applicant.


User currently offlineSLCUT2777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 4068 posts, RR: 11
Reply 11, posted (7 years 6 months 3 hours ago) and read 2821 times:

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 9):
If LAX somehow gets thrown into the mix (which I dont think it will), I think it will complicate matters even more. LAX is by far the largest market from the US to China. I think it goes without saying that CO will try for EWR-PVG, and NYC is the second largest market to China.

Keep in mind that LAX is served by all of China's big state owned carriers (China Southern, China Eastern and Air China--or China Airlines?), which is why in my observation the big U.S. flag carriers have stayed away from them as an application.

Quoting CALPSAFltSkeds (Reply 10):
I'm hoping CO finally gets EWR-PVG to serve by far the largest O&D market of any applicant.

Ditto for EWR competing against its Port Authority of NYC sister airport; JFK. Service exists with the three I mentioned above.

Some of the cities that a few years down the line could get China authorities that no one mentions are SEA and BOS. SEA largely gets blocked out due to its proximity to a cross-border airport; YVR. Both SEA and BOS have large Chinese-American communities.



DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7615 posts, RR: 24
Reply 12, posted (7 years 6 months 3 hours ago) and read 2810 times:

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 11):
Ditto for EWR competing against its Port Authority of NYC sister airport; JFK. Service exists with the three I mentioned above.

China Southern doesnt fly to NYC and China Eastern only flies 2x weekly (last I checked). However all three do offer daily service to LAX.

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 11):
Keep in mind that LAX is served by all of China's big state owned carriers (China Southern, China Eastern and Air China--or China Airlines?), which is why in my observation the big U.S. flag carriers have stayed away from them as an application.

And im sure thats exactly why U.S. flag carriers stay away from LAX. I still think it can be done if one of the airlines tries.



Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently offlineRwSEA From Netherlands, joined Jan 2005, 3105 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (7 years 6 months 3 hours ago) and read 2804 times:

Quoting CALPSAFltSkeds (Reply 10):
It looks like the award has alternated between PEK and PVG. If so, then PVG will win in 2008. Is that why DL and US want PVG instead of going for PEK first?

Not necessarily. Both are going for PVG because UA got IAD-PEK in the last round of awards. Because IAD competes for the same connecting traffic as PHL and ATL, and IAD just got service to PEK, DL and US stand a better chance if they try to open up a different market.


User currently offlineCarpethead From Japan, joined Aug 2004, 2954 posts, RR: 3
Reply 14, posted (7 years 6 months 1 hour ago) and read 2772 times:

Why should the DOT give DL any benefit of the doubt?
As large DL is, they have eight aircraft that can properly serve US mainland to China. At least CO is going on 20 772s, NW will get 787s next year, AA still has plenty of 772s, and UA has plenty of 744 & 777 to juggle if it comes to that. While I doubt UA will get more awarded in the next two years, CO's application for such as EWR-PVG or NW's DTW-PVG or PEK are much stronger than anything DL can throw at the DOT.


User currently offlinePapatango From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 523 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (7 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 2737 times:

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 8):

Has anyone heard any news from the recent china usa talks?


User currently offlineOrd From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 1382 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (7 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 2720 times:

Quoting Carpethead (Reply 14):
While I doubt UA will get more awarded in the next two years, CO's application for such as EWR-PVG or NW's DTW-PVG or PEK are much stronger than anything DL can throw at the DOT.

Northwest should be awarded nothing. They already have the rights to fly to China and choose to use these rights for NRT-China service, instead of mainland USA-China. They are the only U.S. carrier that "wastes" their China rights in this manner. If Northwest wants to serve DTW-China, all they need to do is move one of their NRT-China flights. That would greatly benefit the U.S. travelling public as many people would just have one connection (i.e. in Detroit) as opposed to two connections (i.e. Detroit and Tokyo) now.


User currently offline102IAHexpress From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 1156 posts, RR: 3
Reply 17, posted (7 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 2692 times:

The DoT is a tough department to predict. Their logic seems to change with each ruling. Going by their latest logic an AA LAX proposal would be denied because LAX already has access to China. Also, I don’t know what the DoT has against NYC but CO would be wise to switch their EWR-PVG application to IAH-PVG.

[Edited 2007-03-26 16:16:29]

User currently offlineFloridaflyboy From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 2015 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (7 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 2637 times:

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 3):
US will apply for PHL-PVG

Has US officially decided on PHL for the China bid? Last time I had heard anything about it, it was expected to be PHL, but they hadn't officially said which hub they would bid from.

Quoting Evan767 (Reply 5):
US getting the China route? A340's? I am not even going to argue with that. DL should get this.

I agree.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 7):
If American Airlines goes for Los Angeles-Beijing, for example, they will give Delta's application serious competition.

Very true. AA from LAX is really the one player who could throw a big old monkey wrench in DL's plans.



Good goes around!
User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7615 posts, RR: 24
Reply 19, posted (7 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 2609 times:

Quoting 102IAHexpress (Reply 17):
Also, I don’t know what the DoT has against NYC but CO would be wise to switch their EWR-PVG application to IAH-PVG.

As much as I would love for CO to serve China from IAH, they wont any time soon (at least until the 787s come). The next service from IAH to Asia will probably be KE (at least my fingers are crossed). My dad lives in Houston and travels to Asia frequently. He always talks about how you guys need more options to Asia. I wholeheartedly agree with him, but I highly doubt CO will serve IAH-China over EWR-China.

Quoting 102IAHexpress (Reply 17):
Going by their latest logic an AA LAX proposal would be denied because LAX already has access to China.

Not true. LAX does not have service from a U.S. flag carrier which is what seems to be the most important on the DOT's mind. I think they would love for a US flag carrier to compete with the Chineese.

Quoting Ord (Reply 16):
Northwest should be awarded nothing.

Absolutely. NW has rights and chooses not to use them. NW will never be awarded more frequencies until the start using the ones they have from DTW or MSP instead of NRT.

Quoting Floridaflyboy (Reply 18):
Very true. AA from LAX is really the one player who could throw a big old monkey wrench in DL's plans.

Absolutely right. I doubt anyone will apply from LAX, but it could be the one thing that gives DL a run for their money.



Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently offline102IAHexpress From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 1156 posts, RR: 3
Reply 20, posted (7 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 2582 times:

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 19):
The next service from IAH to Asia will probably be KE (at least my fingers are crossed).

Actually it will be EK.

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 19):
Not true. LAX does not have service from a U.S. flag carrier which is what seems to be the most important on the DOT's mind. I think they would love for a US flag carrier to compete with the Chineese.

I disagree. I don’t think that’s the major factor it once was for the DoT. NYC does not have US flag carrier service to PVG, yet that fact has not been too important in the minds of the DoT. CO and DL have both applied to China from NYC with little success.
CO best bet against a DL ATL proposal is to propose IAH-PVG service. Unless the DoT really doesn’t want CO to have any more China frequencies (which may be true), I really don’t see how IAH could lose out to ATL in the next round.


User currently offlineFloridaflyboy From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 2015 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (7 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 2563 times:

Quoting 102IAHexpress (Reply 20):
I really don’t see how IAH could lose out to ATL in the next round.

I don't think IAH could beat out ATL. Regardless of the fact that certain passengers would have to backtrack to use it, I think ATL would easily beat out IAH because of the sheer volume of passengers who could connect to an ATL-PVG flight.



Good goes around!
User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7615 posts, RR: 24
Reply 22, posted (7 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 2533 times:

Quoting 102IAHexpress (Reply 20):
NYC does not have US flag carrier service to PVG, yet that fact has not been too important in the minds of the DoT. CO and DL have both applied to China from NYC with little success.

LAX doesnt service to China on a US carrier period (not even HKG on a US carrier). And LAX is the largest market from the US to China.

Quoting 102IAHexpress (Reply 20):
CO best bet against a DL ATL proposal is to propose IAH-PVG service. Unless the DoT really doesn’t want CO to have any more China frequencies (which may be true), I really don’t see how IAH could lose out to ATL in the next round.

IAH probabaly would lose out to ATL if it came to that. No one will argue that Houston is the larger city and has one of the largest international communities in the country (certainly larger than Atlanta), but ATL is a bigger airport with more opprotunities for connections. Honestly both airports are poorly located for service from Asia to the US as far as connections are concerned and Houston does have a larger market to China, but my money is on ATL and DL.



Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently onlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32788 posts, RR: 72
Reply 23, posted (7 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2500 times:

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 19):

Quoting Floridaflyboy (Reply 18):
Very true. AA from LAX is really the one player who could throw a big old monkey wrench in DL's plans.

Absolutely right. I doubt anyone will apply from LAX, but it could be the one thing that gives DL a run for their money.

I think AA will. With the last round, before applying for Dallas-Beijing, the rumours were they were going to try for Los Angeles-Beijing. If they had, I think they would have had a great shot and winning it. I think they will go for LAX-PEK next time around, but they still might try for DFW-PEK again.



a.
User currently offlineEvan767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 2957 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (7 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2487 times:

Also, can DL's 777ER's make ATL-PVG, or would this have to require an oh-so-precious... 772LR? I realize that this flight is only 100 miles shorter than JFK-BOM, but what about winds and cargo?


The proper term is "on final" not "on finals" bud...
25 Post contains links STT757 : During the 2007 competition a few A-net posters, Mark I think you might have been one of them, made the point the DOT might react unfavorably to CO's
26 RwSEA : CO's application will have plenty of merit, but it will be a 3rd-place contender if DL applies for ATL-PVG and AA applies for LAX-PEK. In the case of
27 Carpethead : Why is that? Because NW uses a 757 on the NRT-CAN & A332 on the NRT-PEK. NW is an incumbant carrier and in a free market it can chooses what to do wi
28 CALPSAFltSkeds : "All CO had going for it was a big market with connections." That gets trumped by a smaller market with fewr connections. That makes sense. CO will r
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