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UA's New FCO Service...Why 777?  
User currently offlineUnitedTristar From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 8722 times:

Does anyone know why they started this with a 777?

I think it would have made more since to upgrade one of their 767 flights such as ZRH/MUC/BRU/(GRU maybe not possible due to scheduling) and use the 767 to establish the route.

Doesn't it make more since to make more money on an existing route and take a smaller plane on a route that will likely loose money to begin with as they establish them selfs in the market (as almost all new routes do).

My thoughts:

- There is sufficient cargo demand to push the 777 over the 767

- They are in competition with some one where the product of a 767 is not competitive (more the other routes)

- Some one did not see any finical advantage to putting the larger aircraft on an existing route and instead of training the existing staff at one of the current UA station and then have to train the FCO station personnel they just figured that they can get away only training one staff.

- The range economics of the 767 with payload restrictions wouldn't be as good as the 777

- They see more premium demand for FCO and needed the F/C seats

I just don't know. I am always glad to see UA expanding but this one confused me.

-m

 airplane 

39 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20394 posts, RR: 62
Reply 1, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 8655 times:

Lots of answers to those questions in this previous thread on it when the service was announced:

UA Starts IAD-FCO April 1 2007 (by Panamair Oct 19 2006 in Civil Aviation)



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineUnitedTristar From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 8588 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 1):
Lots of answers to those questions in this previous thread on it when the service was announced:

Yes.

Thank you...I had seen that one before I started this thread. It has a few guesses but I was hoping some one had a more definitive answer.

-m

 airplane 


User currently offlineLaxintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24893 posts, RR: 46
Reply 3, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 8492 times:

No guarantee of profitability, however many flights are already heavily booked, with some days even oversold in economy thru the summer. Certainly proves there was demand for the flight.


From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineNonRev From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2006, 59 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 8439 times:

Will become 767 in fullness of time

User currently offlineARGinLON From Vatican City, joined Jun 2005, 614 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 8380 times:

As you said, scheduling issues when rotating airplanes may result in an a/c getting priority over another one.

User currently offlineAADC10 From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 2073 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 7820 times:

Don't forget that there is a large difference in CASM between the 767 and 777. If UA can keep the 772 near filled, it would keep the relative cost down. It can also carry LD-3s. Still, after the summer travel season, they may downguage if they find a better route to use bigger plane. However the former IAD-MXP flight was usually operated with the 772 all year.

User currently offlineMCOflyer From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 8664 posts, RR: 15
Reply 7, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 6926 times:

Quoting AADC10 (Reply 6):
If UA can keep the 772 near filled, it would keep the relative cost down.

Agreed. Wouldn't a 767 have more cost for this route?

MCOflyer



Never be afraid to stand up for who you are.
User currently offlineContinentalEWR From United States of America, joined May 2000, 3762 posts, RR: 13
Reply 8, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 6764 times:

United has a code share with Star Alliance partner, Air One, which flies a number of routes from Rome-Fiumicino. That may be why they are putting a 777 on this route. That said, ZRH is also a Star hub, with more connection opportunities offered by LX over Air One at FCO, and the IAD-ZRH flight is a 767-300ER. FCO is a leisure market, with much less in the way of business travel. I would suspect the route will be downgraded to a 763 for the Winter 2007/8 season.

User currently offlineUnitedTristar From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 6734 times:

Quoting ContinentalEWR (Reply 8):
That said, ZRH is also a Star hub, with more connection opportunities offered by LX over Air One at FCO, and the IAD-ZRH flight is a 767-300ER

yes...which is exactly why I think ZRH would have been a better fit for the 777

-m

 airplane 


User currently offlineJfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8290 posts, RR: 7
Reply 10, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 5995 times:
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Wahington to Rome with a 777 seems too much, but then they are the only ones on the route. Alitalia stopped flying to IAD in 2005. There seem to be better UA markets for a 777, UA may have too many 777A's which can't cross the Pacific or fly from the west coast to Europe so it could may any number of factors. If any one knows how many UA 777's are A or B's I would appreciate it.

User currently offlineCba From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 4531 posts, RR: 3
Reply 11, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 5962 times:

Quoting ContinentalEWR (Reply 8):
I would suspect the route will be downgraded to a 763 for the Winter 2007/8 season.

Most likely true. Although the demand in J won't be as great as it is for other European routes, if UA can fill Y and most importantly the cargo hold, the route will be a money maker.


User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26376 posts, RR: 76
Reply 12, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 5710 times:

Aside from the fact that United has a rather limited 763ER fleet anyway, there could well be range issues in Rome's hot summers for the 763ER on the westbound.


Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineMCOflyer From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 8664 posts, RR: 15
Reply 13, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 5523 times:

Quoting N1120A (Reply 12):
there could well be range issues in Rome's hot summers for the 763ER on the westbound.

I thought UA's 763ER's could do that run easily. If DL can do JFK-SVO, then UA can do IAD-FCO. Aren't UA's powered by PW 4062 or is it PW4060?

MCOflyer



Never be afraid to stand up for who you are.
User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26376 posts, RR: 76
Reply 14, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 5497 times:

Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 13):
I thought UA's 763ER's could do that run easily. If DL can do JFK-SVO, then UA can do IAD-FCO.

SVO is a whole different set of operating conditions. FCO gets very hot in the summer and can do bad things to aircraft weights.

Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 13):
Aren't UA's powered by PW 4062 or is it PW4060?

Their international 3-class aircraft are PW4060 powered (the crippled 2-class domestic/Hawai'i aircraft are PW4052 powered).



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineUAL777UK From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2005, 3356 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 5183 times:

It was a surpirise to me that they placed a 777 for this route but Laxintl has stated I understand that loads are looking pretty healthy already......yields however are another matter, lets hope they get some bums on seats in F & J, and not just upgrades!

User currently offlineRoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9511 posts, RR: 52
Reply 16, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 4983 times:

Quoting ContinentalEWR (Reply 8):
United has a code share with Star Alliance partner, Air One, which flies a number of routes from Rome-Fiumicino. That may be why they are putting a 777 on this route

UA heavily favours LH as their star alliance partner for connections in Europe. UA and LH share revenue, so any connecting traffic will route through FRA (or MUC) if at all possible. BMI, SAS, Swiss and others don't get anywhere near as much connecting traffic. UA codeshares to a multitude of destinations from FRA and very few from other European airports.

Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 10):
UA may have too many 777A's which can't cross the Pacific or fly from the west coast to Europe so it could may any number of factors

I think that could be a factor. UA has the low MTOW 772s that have limited range. Yes there are lots of flights to FRA and LHR on 777s, but those routes might demand too much cargo and thus a lower weight 777 is best for FCO. FCO probably can fill the larger economy cabin.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 12):
there could well be range issues in Rome's hot summers for the 763ER on the westbound.

UA operates summer LHR-LAX service on 763ERs, which is 950 miles longer. Rome can be hot, but it is at sea level, so I don't think that could be a reason.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26376 posts, RR: 76
Reply 17, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 4961 times:

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 18):
UA operates summer LHR-LAX service on 763ERs, which is 950 miles longer. Rome can be hot, but it is at sea level, so I don't think that could be a reason.

TWA used to have trouble at times with their 763ERs on ATH-JFK, which is similar to FCO-IAD.



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineUal777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 1546 posts, RR: 5
Reply 18, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 3882 times:

The reason is that IAD is UA's gateway to Europe.

IAD-AMS 1x777 Daily
IAD-CDG 1x777 Daily
IAD-FRA 1x744 Daily
IAD-FRA 1x777 Daily
IAD-FRA 1x763 Daily
IAD-MUC 1x777 Daily
IAD-ZRH 1x763 Daily
IAD-FCO 1x777 Daily
IAD-LHR 2x777 Daily
IAD-LHR 2x763 Daily

They have 1 744, 7 777s, and 4 763s leaving IAD and going across the Atlantic daily. This doesn't include KWI which is 3 or 4x weekly.



It is always darkest before the sun comes up.
User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 19, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 3854 times:

They also fly IAD-BRU with a 763... personally, I am surprised that flight isn't a 777.

NS


User currently offlineJfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8290 posts, RR: 7
Reply 20, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 3675 times:
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IAD and UA has served each other well, being in Washington with all the international traffic involving the nation's business, no airline until UA served it as it needed to be. PAN AM has IAD to LHR and FRA but that was a 2 747 a day operation with limited results. Dulles always deserved a hub airline given the huge and rich population of northern Virginia.

User currently offlineNycfly75 From Italy, joined Aug 2005, 751 posts, RR: 10
Reply 21, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 3623 times:

Does anyone see the possibility of an ORD-FCO flight in the near future?

User currently offlinePanAm330 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 2671 posts, RR: 9
Reply 22, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 3541 times:

Quoting Nycfly75 (Reply 23):
Does anyone see the possibility of an ORD-FCO flight in the near future?

Not with the shortage of aircraft UA currently has, unless they play with their schedules or cut a longhaul route. AA flies ORD-FCO currently (seasonal?), and FCO isn't exactly the highest-yielding destination, so I wouldn't hold my breath.


User currently offlineRwSEA From Netherlands, joined Jan 2005, 3083 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 3455 times:

To answer the original question, the answer has to lie in aircraft utilization. Given that UA's long-haul fleet is very stretched, they were probably able to work in the IAD-FCO service due to all of the 777 service that already exists (including the new NRT and KWI service). The 763s are much more limited, and there was probably less "slack" time to rotate one to FCO.

User currently offlineContinentalEWR From United States of America, joined May 2000, 3762 posts, RR: 13
Reply 24, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 3451 times:

The fact that Rome is hot in the summer has no bearing on a 767's performance. DL, CO, AC, and for a time, even US have operated 767's or still do on this route and there is no problem. Half of AZ's long haul fleet is made up of 767's. I don't think that is the reason.

25 TrijetsRMissed : I don't think that is an issue. AA flies 763ER's during the hot summer months from FCO to ORD, which is 800 or so miles farther. I thought all 772's
26 BA : Athens gets a lot hotter than Rome on average.
27 BayAreaBlue : They must have been guessing correctly about a/c size. Summer is a high demand to Europe. I am going to Europe and on the return, I go from FCO to IAD
28 Cba : As previously stated, ATH gets a lot hotter than FCO. Also, I have not heard of DL having any problems with ATH-JFK on their 763's. FCO gets hot, but
29 OOer : Not really... Avg. high temps Rome = July 91 Aug 90 Athens = July 91 Aug 91
30 FLYYUL : FCO is a volume market. Carriers tend to send their highest capacity airplanes with smaller premium cabins. So How does UA intend to sell the larger F
31 The777Man : Also note that the flight will be flown by a 777 in the Pacific configuration; F10 C45 Y198. Fewer seats in F and C then the more common 777s UA usual
32 FLYYUL : Eastbound this make's sense as the 777 arrives from NRT at 1510 and can go to FCO at 1815. The arrival is at 1500 from FCO, so the plane would continu
33 OA412 : Or ATH-ATL for that matter which is quite a bit longer than FCO-IAD.
34 Mymiles2go : That's just the normal 5PM bank time. Virtually all of the internationals for that bank arrive between 3PM and 3:30PM. And virtually all leave betwee
35 UA772IAD : 19 777-200As, 6 of which are configured for domestic ops (N768UA-N781UA, N210-215UA x. N770UA) 32 777Bs. (N782UA-N799UA, x. N789UA, N790UA & N204UA,
36 RwSEA : No, politics isn't involved. No route authority is needed. And US government traffic would fly the route by default anyway given that it's a non-stop
37 Gigneil : United does not serve Dulles to a fraction of its potential. Adding Asian routes is fun and all, and certainly Dulles supports them, but it could sup
38 BDL2DCA : Uh? With what aircraft? In order for a transatlantic route to be profitable, it needs a significant amount of O&D traffic. There are very few cities
39 AA777 : Not true... Alitalia stopped serving IAD sometime in 2006. I remember seeing their 767 at IAD sometime last summer. -AA777
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