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A380 Runway Slots At LHR  
User currently offlineMacilree From New Zealand, joined Dec 2006, 243 posts, RR: 7
Posted (7 years 6 months 9 hours ago) and read 6914 times:

Assuming that the EU-US "open skies" air transport agreement is signed, clearly runway slots at LHR will be more keenly sought after than ever. I have just been reading speculation on the Flight International blog that BA may decide to purchase A380 aircraft and obviously the likes of SQ, EK and QF will be looking to operate their A380 aircraft into LHR.

I am also aware that ICAO guidelines for the A380 may require greater time/distance separation from other aircraft during takeoff and landing because of wake turbulence (see ICAO paper from June 2006 but there may be more recent material that I haven't seen). This would seem to imply that existing operators will not simply be able to carryover their slots on a one-for-one basis if they chose to replace existing aircraft with A380 operations. Or is this now a non-issue as Airbus clearly hope it will be (see Airbus media statement)?

Has anyone seen or done any recent analysis of the implications of the use of A380s into LHR on slot numbers and how any reduced number of slots would be (re)allocated? The answer as to how this would be handled may be on the Airports Coordination Limited web site but I haven't found it. Presumably the same issue may arise at other congested major hub airport.

I appreciate that a thread back in May 2006 touched on this issue.

John Macilree's Weblog


John Macilree
36 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineZeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 9103 posts, RR: 75
Reply 1, posted (7 years 6 months 8 hours ago) and read 6901 times:

They actually open up slots for carriers, as the the A380 can operate into LHR 24/7, where as the 744 is not allowed to operate during night time curfew.

During the day, I don't expect any changes, ATC can manage the traffic in a number of ways.



We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21531 posts, RR: 59
Reply 2, posted (7 years 6 months 8 hours ago) and read 6884 times:

Even with the increased spacing, overall capacity increases by about 10% over a 744. I figured it out a while ago. And if the provisional spacing gets reduced over time, the capacity increase over a 744 will be 25-35%.

Of course, cutting F50 and other traffic into LHR would have way more impact on traffic. And it's unclear if carriers with 1 flight would owe any more money for taking up more space. With mixed mode coming soon, overall slots will increase at LHR anyway, and it would make the impact of the A380 spacing less, but still other aircraft would also benefit under mixed mode.

Quoting Zeke (Reply 1):
They actually open up slots for carriers, as the the A380 can operate into LHR 24/7, where as the 744 is not allowed to operate during night time curfew.

???

Has it actually met the promised noise standards? I was under the impression it had yet to do so. And personally, hearing a UA 744 land right before the A380 here at LAX, the A380 was no quieter. It actually sounded louder on approach. Just subjective, but we were all shocked that it wasn't as quiet as we expected it would be.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineZeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 9103 posts, RR: 75
Reply 3, posted (7 years 6 months 7 hours ago) and read 6847 times:

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 2):

Has it actually met the promised noise standards? I was under the impression it had yet to do so. And personally, hearing a UA 744 land right before the A380 here at LAX, the A380 was no quieter. It actually sounded louder on approach. Just subjective, but we were all shocked that it wasn't as quiet as we expected it would be.

The promise for arrival was QC2 (92.9 to 95.9 EPNdB) it has exceed the promised and been certified QC 0.5 (86.9 to 89.9 EPNdB) it is a significant reduction below the 744 which is certified in the 95.9 to 98.9 EPNdB range (note these are log scales),

It is certified QC2 for departure, QC0.5 on arrival.



We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
User currently onlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31000 posts, RR: 86
Reply 4, posted (7 years 6 months 2 hours ago) and read 6596 times:
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Quoting Zeke (Reply 1):
They actually open up slots for carriers, as the the A380 can operate into LHR 24/7, where as the 744 is not allowed to operate during night time curfew.

When are the curfew hours?

The 787 (and presumably the A350XWB) will also be well within those figures so they could operate 24/7, as well, but I am wondering if those times are desirable enough to passengers to actually want to be used.


User currently offlineJonathan-l From France, joined Mar 2002, 504 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (7 years 6 months 1 hour ago) and read 6542 times:

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 2):
Has it actually met the promised noise standards? (...) Just subjective, but we were all shocked that it wasn't as quiet as we expected it would be

The aircraft is QC 0.5 in London on arrival, when it was originally estimated by Airbus that it would be QC 1.
As a comparison, on departure, the A380 is QC 2 (as the 777, A340-600 and 747-8) and the 747-400 is QC 4.

If you take EPNdB as reference, the A380 will be:
-94 departure (lower than 777 and A340-600)
-89 arrival (lower than 777 and A340-600)

The 747-400 is:
-99 departure
-94 arrival


User currently offlineMacilree From New Zealand, joined Dec 2006, 243 posts, RR: 7
Reply 6, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 6223 times:

I have done a bit more research and found the Flight International report of comments made in a lecture by BA CEO Willie Walsh to the Royal Aeronautical Society on 13 November 2006.

If a one-for-one substitution is not possible I pity the poor schedulers trying to rework LHR slots.

John Macilree's Weblog



John Macilree
User currently offlineBongodog1964 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2006, 3589 posts, RR: 3
Reply 7, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 6130 times:

Quoting Zeke (Reply 1):
They actually open up slots for carriers, as the the A380 can operate into LHR 24/7, where as the 744 is not allowed to operate during night time curfew.

I was under the impression that at LHR it was a total shutdown nighttime, regardless of noise levels,I may however be totall wrong !!!


User currently offlineGeo772 From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2004, 519 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 6104 times:

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 7):

I was under the impression that at LHR it was a total shutdown nighttime, regardless of noise levels,I may however be totall wrong !!!

No you are right.

Although aircraft do operate at night you can not schedule a departure after 11pm or an arrival before 5am.

If an aircraft is delayed at night then the departure after 11pm has to be done at full power - certainly on the 744 in order to improve initial climb rate. The idea is you make a bit more noise but it goes on for less time.

It is unlikely that the A380 will be treated any differently in this regard.



Flown on A300B4/600,A319/20/21,A332/3,A343,B727,B732/3/4/5/6/7/8,B741/2/4,B752/3,B762/3,B772/3,DC10,L1011-200,VC10,MD80,
User currently offlineVV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 7534 posts, RR: 17
Reply 9, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 5901 times:

Quoting Geo772 (Reply 8):
Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 7):

I was under the impression that at LHR it was a total shutdown nighttime, regardless of noise levels,I may however be totall wrong !!!

No you are right.

Although aircraft do operate at night you can not schedule a departure after 11pm or an arrival before 5am.

No departures are allowed in the 2330 to 0600 hours period. I believe one arrival slot is allocated to BD at 0055 hours on a Saturday. Otherwise arrival slots are only allowed between 0500 and 0600 hours during the night time curfew. These slots are severely restricted in number and are all allocated. Net result is that the only airlines that can schedule arrivals at LHR between 0500 and 0600 hours are BA (with seven daily slots), BD (1 slot), CX (1 slot), MH (1 slot), QF (1 slot), SQ (1 slot), UA (1 slot) and VS (2 slots).

If an aircraft 'arrives' before 0500 (with a slot allocated after that time) I believe landing will be refused except in an emergency. And although the night time curfew ends at 0600 hours, no slots are allocated between 0600 and 0620. This period is reserved for landings of aircraft with slots at or after 0620 that have arrived early. (Such aircraft will be refused landing before 0600.) This raises something I have always wondered about. If an airline has a flight with an LHR arrival slot at or after 0620 and the aircraft habitually is ready for landing before 0620, are ATC going to report it? If so to whom? AML? What happens then?


User currently offlineLGAtoIND From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 490 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 5769 times:

I guess that explains why nothing seemed to be going on at LHR when I landed there last month. We flew in on UA958 from ORD, which lands at 0555. I was expecting the airport to be bustling, as it was my first time at LHR, but as we touched down there were barely any other movements I could see going on. That also brings up the question on why UA uses their early slot for the ORD arrival and not the IAD arrival?

User currently offlineMacilree From New Zealand, joined Dec 2006, 243 posts, RR: 7
Reply 11, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 5564 times:

Airport Coordination Limited has published a three page Briefing Note: EU-US Open Skies and Access to Heathrow dated 26 March 2007.

John Macilree's Weblog

[Edited 2007-04-01 01:33:16]


John Macilree
User currently offlineLeonB1985 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 5521 times:

Quite a number of aircraft, specifically bizjets, are able to operate in and out of LHR during the curfew hours, since a fairly recent change to night noise regulations. However, obviously these are ad-hoc flights, as opposed to scheduled services.

User currently offlineSSTsomeday From Canada, joined Oct 2006, 1276 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 5511 times:

Quoting Zeke (Reply 1):
They actually open up slots for carriers, as the the A380 can operate into LHR 24/7, where as the 744 is not allowed to operate during night time curfew.

Will the 747-8 be so restricted? Or do they know yet?



I come in peace
User currently offlineZeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 9103 posts, RR: 75
Reply 14, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 5453 times:

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 7):
I was under the impression that at LHR it was a total shutdown nighttime, regardless of noise levels,I may however be totall wrong !!!

QC4 aircraft are banned, the full requirements are available from the UK department of transport http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/aviation/environmentalissues/nighthgs/

As far as I know there is a set noise quota during the 2300-0600 periods (equivalent to about 15 slots now), based upon current noise requirements, with quieter aircraft such as the 380 coming onto the scene, the number of movements to make the night noise quota increases.

Quoting SSTsomeday (Reply 13):
Will the 747-8 be so restricted? Or do they know yet?

No idea, 380, 787, 350XWB should all be in the same boat, 748 may have trouble reaching the 4% climb gradient.



We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
User currently offlineTheginge From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2006, 1132 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 5374 times:

The period between 0600 & 0700 local is always very busy at LHR, almost every day you will see ATC landing aircraft on both runways as the rest of the days capacity is based on having no ATC delay at 0700L so ATC need to land the arrivals on both runways to make this happen.

As others have said the night movements at LHR are strictly enforced and you can only take off after 2329L with permission of the Airport Ops duty manager, sometimes the wish is granted, sometimes it isn't, it depends on a number of factors. The A380 will be no different to this.

The restrictions on movements between 2329L and 0600L are lifted on some occasions, for instance severe ATC delays in the evening caused by things like fog which means there are significant numbers of planes that are waiting to depart after 2330 through no fault of the airline. This also applies in the morning during fog as when LVP's are in force an aircraft shceduled to land after 0600L can land before this time without incurring a night movement penalty.

With regards to the A380 and the wake turbulence category I don't think Airport slots as such have anything to do with this, I think a slot is allocated regardless although someone correct me if I am wrong. It is up to ATC to sort out the spacing.


User currently offlineSailorOrion From Germany, joined Feb 2001, 2058 posts, RR: 6
Reply 16, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 5324 times:

Quoting Macilree (Reply 11):
Airport Coordination Limited has published a three page Briefing Note: EU-US Open Skies and Access to Heathrow dated 26 March 2007

This is very interesting reading. I didn't know that the number of (air transport?) movements in LHR has been capped at 480.000. This basically means there is now growth for room even with mixed mode and the A380 will fly in and out of the place like there's no tomorrow. (LHR had 477.000 total movements in 2006 according to the ACI).

It's also shown in that document that there is no slot to even accomodate like a handful more flights into the airport.

Concerning the number of movements, LHR is already number 3 in Europe (with CDG and FRA having more movements) and in a few years' time we can expect MAD, AMS and MUC to have more annual movements than LHR.

SailorOrion


User currently offlineMacilree From New Zealand, joined Dec 2006, 243 posts, RR: 7
Reply 17, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 5240 times:

Quoting Theginge (Reply 15):
With regards to the A380 and the wake turbulence category I don't think Airport slots as such have anything to do with this, I think a slot is allocated regardless although someone correct me if I am wrong. It is up to ATC to sort out the spacing.

Surely if A380 takeoffs require an extra minute of spacing and there are a number of A380 departures in a particular hour then runway capacity per hour must be reduced and slots could not be carried over on a one-for-one basis by existing operators wishing to switch to using A380s at LHR.

This leads one to wonder whether A380 operators will need to scramble for fractions of existing slots or reduce frequency. This would seem to be a potentially significant factor for BA in making a decision between the A380 and the B747-8 if the latter requires the same separation as a B747-400.

John Macilree's Weblog



John Macilree
User currently offlineVV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 7534 posts, RR: 17
Reply 18, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 5228 times:

There seems to be some confusion between the definitions of the 'night period' and 'night quota period' at LHR.

The 'night' period is from 2300 to 0700 hours. Movements are restricted on the basis of noise levels. In practical terms this means that certain noisy aircraft will not be scheduled to arrive at LHR between 0620 and 0700 hours. (No aircraft are scheduled to arrive between 0600 and 0620 for operational reasons - see Reply 9.)

The 'night quota' period is from 2330 to 0600 hours. During this period (in which the 'night' period restrictions also apply) no departures are allowed and the number of arrivals are numerically restricted to 15 per day in the period 0500 to 0600 hours. (Again see Reply 9 for details.)

The period between 0620 and 0700 - that is the morning period in the 'night' but not the 'night quots' period when scheduled arrivals are allowed - is slot bound.

The net effect of this is that the airlines with landing slots between 0500 and 0600 could substitute the 380 for the aircraft currently in use (which last summer comprised one 340, one 767, two 772s and 11 744s). However the introduction of the 380 would not result in any increase in movements in the 'night' period of 2300 to 0700 hours.


User currently offlineAstuteman From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 10031 posts, RR: 96
Reply 19, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 5206 times:
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Quoting Macilree (Reply 17):
This would seem to be a potentially significant factor for BA in making a decision between the A380 and the B747-8 if the latter requires the same separation as a B747-400.

That's a big "if" at this time..........

Regards


User currently offlineZeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 9103 posts, RR: 75
Reply 20, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 5140 times:

Quoting VV701 (Reply 18):


The net effect of this is that the airlines with landing slots between 0500 and 0600 could substitute the 380 for the aircraft currently in use (which last summer comprised one 340, one 767, two 772s and 11 744s). However the introduction of the 380 would not result in any increase in movements in the 'night' period of 2300 to 0700 hours.

It does mean an airline can basically double the number of movements by replacing a 744 with two 380s during the time has it is significantly quieter.

Many people also think "slot" constrained means just means takeoff or landing capacity, many airports including places like LHR and YVR are gate limited as well, we also have enroute slots be it north pacific, north atlantic, or into China where aircraft can wait for significant time now for a "slot" to fly a route.



We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
User currently offlineVV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 7534 posts, RR: 17
Reply 21, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 4938 times:

Quoting Zeke (Reply 20):
The net effect of this is that the airlines with landing slots between 0500 and 0600 could substitute the 380 for the aircraft currently in use (which last summer comprised one 340, one 767, two 772s and 11 744s). However the introduction of the 380 would not result in any increase in movements in the 'night' period of 2300 to 0700 hours.

It does mean an airline can basically double the number of movements by replacing a 744 with two 380s during the time has it is significantly quieter.

No. An airline cannot double the amount of movements at LHR during the night curfew because:

1. No arrivals at all are allowed between 2330 and 0500 hours whether the aircraft is a 380 or any other type.

2. Between 0500 and 0600 hours the number of arrivals is numerically restricted to the number that are currently operating, namely 15 on a weekday. So if they were all 380s the maximum allowed would still be just 15.

3. No arrivals are allowed to be scheduled between 0600 and 0620 because this period is reserved for landing aircraft scheduled to arrive after 0620 hours that arrive early.

4. Between 0620 and 0700 hours the rules are noise based and in theory it might be possible to increase the number of arrivals by using a quieter aircraft. However the airlines have worked this situation to their advantage and - by using appropriate aircraft fill all the slots physically available as if there were no noise restrictions. That is to say you cannot double up the number of landings however quiet the aircraft because aircraft separation would be insufficient.

In the summer 2006 schedules on weekdays between 0620 and 0659 hours 13 744s, 12 772s, 6 340s, 1 330, 3 763s and 1 752 were scheduled to land at LHR. With it currently looking as if separation time for a 744 following a 380 will have to be greater than when a 744 lands after another 744, the replacement of just one of these aircraft with a 380 could result in a reduction in the number of landing slots in this period from 36 to 35.

It is clear that the idea that you could double the number of slots by using 380s is totally fallacious. If this were possible then the 36 aircraft that were scheduled to land at LHR on a single runway in summer 2006 in 40 minutes would total 72 or one 380 every 33 seconds!


User currently offlineZeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 9103 posts, RR: 75
Reply 22, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 4835 times:

Quoting VV701 (Reply 21):
2. Between 0500 and 0600 hours the number of arrivals is numerically restricted to the number that are currently operating, namely 15 on a weekday. So if they were all 380s the maximum allowed would still be just 15.

I was of the understanding that night movements are based on a noise quota system, and the 15 aircraft at the moment are QC4 from memory, if a switch to a QC0.5 such as a 380 would allow more movements.

I have not seen anything in the UK AIP or from the UK department of transport to confirm your comments.



We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
User currently offlineVV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 7534 posts, RR: 17
Reply 23, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 4613 times:

Quoting Zeke (Reply 22):
I have not seen anything in the UK AIP or from the UK department of transport to confirm your comments.

http://www.gnn.gov.uk/Content/Detail.asp?ReleaseID=205921&NewsAreaID=2


User currently offlineZeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 9103 posts, RR: 75
Reply 24, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 4531 times:

Quoting VV701 (Reply 23):
http://www.gnn.gov.uk/Content/Detail.asp?ReleaseID=205921&NewsAreaID=2

Thanks for that, it still does not agree with what you were saying, it is actually agreeing with what I was saying, i.e. quieter aircraft can operate, and QC4 (744) are not allowed to operate.



We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
25 VV701 : I think you may have missed or misunderstood this: I then went on to point out that, in practical terms: While this is the period in which noise rest
26 Zvezda : I'd like to see a complete lifting of restrictions during the night quota period for QC0.25 aircraft. That would help drive innovation and enable stri
27 Cloudyapple : Not true. Capacity declarations are hourly from 0500. It has been modelled based on no delay at 0500L. Not true. In the seasonal capacity declaration
28 Cloudyapple : 36 arrivals in that hour, all heavies at 4Nm approach separation. 36 movements x 4Nm x 25s = 3600s = 1h. But fact is that they won't come nicely spac
29 Airplanecrazy : Effective April 21, UA 918 from IAD to LHR is scheduled to arrive at 5:50AM (it used to arrive at 6:20AM). I also see that UA 958 from ORD to LHR is
30 Zeke : They are to commission a new control tower this month. They have asked operators to move flights forward so they are not so busy at the morning peak,
31 Jbernie : The thing about A380 traffic at LHR i actually having Airlines who have the plane and want to use it for flights to/from LHR as their traffic demands
32 Jacobin777 : ...all these reasons will actually decrease the reason to purchase an A380 (especially if CASM is better with other aircrafts)-after all, the suppose
33 Zeke : Think it would be wise to listen to people like Cloudyapple and myself who have actually looked at the issue... All you are doing is throwing about t
34 StarGoldLHR : Ignore Ikra it's another of his anti european rants BA0 12 and BA016 routinely arrive between 04.15 and 05.55 QF009 routinely arrives 0525 as does SQ
35 AirplaneCrazy : So are there any curfew rules now? What do the local residents think of all of the new early arrivals?
36 Zeke : AFAIK during the commissioning phase, they have been lifted. Don't know what the residents think, they know the bought property near an airport.
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