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Finnair To Shop For Long-range Planes?  
User currently offlineJoni From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (13 years 4 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 2527 times:


Finnair reported good results today and announced they intend to increase long-range capacity.

Are we ready for yet another A vs B war here? ..... oh, yes.

23 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineLouis From Canada, joined Oct 2005, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (13 years 4 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 2409 times:

I thought they already ordered the A340?

User currently offlineJoni From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (13 years 4 months 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 2390 times:


No, they didn't. Their only widebody type is MD-11, of which they only have 3.

AFAIK they do plan to go "all-Airbus" in the single-aisles, but don't know how that relates to widebodies - it may or may not.



User currently offlineGKirk From UK - Scotland, joined Jun 2000, 24812 posts, RR: 56
Reply 3, posted (13 years 4 months 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 2384 times:

They may opt for the A330/A340 or the 767/777, which one ? I would think they will probably go for the Airbus.


When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
User currently offlineHamlet69 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 2703 posts, RR: 58
Reply 4, posted (13 years 4 months 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 2375 times:

Joni,

What happened to Finnair's fourth MD-11? Did they sell it, or are they just leasing it out?

Hamlet69



Honor the warriors, not the war.
User currently offlineJormy From Finland, joined Jan 2000, 231 posts, RR: 5
Reply 5, posted (13 years 4 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 2370 times:

As far as I know, Finnair still uses four (4) MD-11's and they don't have any plans for them yet.

Finnair has always aimed to have only a couple of plane types from one manufacturer, which was Mcdonnell Douglas. Finnair used to have or still have the following planes:
DC-8
DC-9
DC-10
MD-11
MD-82
MD-83
MD-87

Now since MD doesn't exist any more and Finnair has already bought Airbuses (B757's are on lease for charters only), I see a logical move to buy A330/A340's next but who knows?

-Janne
Helsinki, Finland
http://personal.inet.fi/private/efhk


User currently offlineBlink182 From Azerbaijan, joined Oct 1999, 5476 posts, RR: 15
Reply 6, posted (13 years 4 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 2341 times:

They will go with what ever aircraft they like and which manufacturer gives them a better deal, simple as that...
rgds,
blink182



Give me a break, I created this username when I was a kid...
User currently offlineOH-LGA From Denmark, joined Oct 1999, 1436 posts, RR: 20
Reply 7, posted (13 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 2333 times:

All I can say is YAY!!!!

According to Finnair's press release their operating profit tripled!!! This is great news... also great news that they plan to increase capacity across the board, especially in the long-haul sector. So they are not going away from long-haul ops, this is wonderful!!! Maybe they can return to San Francisco  

As for choice of long-haul planes, I see Finnair ordering Airbus long-haul jets. Finnair has consistently had a fleet composed of one manufacturer, is the past it was McDonnell Douglas but now seems to be Airbus Industrie. Hopefully they go through with my idea ( ) to start long-haul service to Sydney with the A340-500, that would be another first in the airline industry, the first European airline to operate scheduled non-stop service from Europe to Australia. That would be a nice addition to it's other accomplishments, including the first non-stop flight from Europe over the North Pole to Japan, and the first Western European airline to fly to China.

Yay yay yay...  

Moi,
Kai



Head in the clouds... yet feet planted firmly on the ground.
User currently offlineRayChuang From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 7929 posts, RR: 5
Reply 8, posted (13 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 2314 times:

Given that Finnair is going to an all-Airbus fleet, I won't be surprised that the airline will consider an A340 variant to replace the MD-11 they now fly. I really doubt that Finnair will want to buy the 777-200ER.

Will they want to buy the A340-300? Or will they consider getting somewhat more capacity and much longer range of the A340-500?


User currently offlineHagi From Finland, joined Jun 1999, 176 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (13 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 2270 times:

All signs at the moment would point towards the A330/340 being their next widebody type. It could be a SAS sort of arrangement of a mixture of the two, although I wouldn't be surprised if they got the A330 only. The fleet expansion is due to happen in 2002.

In another forum, the possibility of leaving the MD-11s to cargo-only use was aired. In my opinion, this isn't far-fetced at all since cargo operations will be spearated into one of six subsidiaries that are to be established. That way, with four cargo MD-11s, Finnair Cargo would become a significant player in what is one of the company's key growth areas as we speak.

- Hagi

PS. Someone mentioned Finnair having already ordered the A340. This is almost true, sort of, if not exactly in the way that 'someone' meant. Back in late '80s when they were looking for a successor for the DC-10, A340 was the type of aircraft they had in mind. The negotiations had advanced well, but in the end the deal went off, when Airbus offered the machines with different (older type) engines than was initially agreed upon. Then, of course, the MD-11 was selected. The same thing had happened earlier, too: they chose the DC-9-10 over B737-200 - or was it DC-8 over B707 - after a similar pull on Boeing's part. Looks like they had a good relationship with (McDonnell) Douglas...


User currently offlineThe Ticketor From Norway, joined Oct 2000, 434 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (13 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 2260 times:

Actually, there will not be six subsidiaries, but six different "Business Units". However, cargo will become a subsidiary under the name of Finnair Cargo Oy. The other new subsidiaries will be Finnair Catering Oy and I believe that Finnair Ground Handling will also be made into a subsidiary.

I´m pretty sure that any new acft would be Airbus. It will be really interesting to see what will happen.

By the way, AY does have 4 MD11.


User currently offlineJoni From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (13 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 2239 times:


Yes, as someone pointed out Finnair really does have 4 MD-11's, the 3 was just a typo on my part. A340-600 would be a really awesome machine for Finnair, I don't think they really need 345's range, rather a larger and more economical plane seems to fit the bill.

But then, this is just guessing. The downside in being an aviation weido is that all interesting deals are so slow to come... It takes years to see how A3xx, 777lr and new 340s fare!


User currently offlineRayChuang From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 7929 posts, RR: 5
Reply 12, posted (13 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 2239 times:

Joni,

Actually, what AY needs is NOT more capacity, something that the A345/A346 would offer. After all, the A346 has the same pax/cargo capacity as the 747-200, and I don't think AY needs THAT big a plane.  

What they do want is a true replacement for the MD-11. That's why the A343 fills the bill better, especially if Airbus' plans to provide upgraded CFM56 engines becomes reality. After all, the A343 has at least the range of the later-production MD11's, and probably lower fuel burn, too. That way, AY can fly HEL-NRT, HEL-SIN and HEL-JFK easily.


User currently offlineTupolev154B2 From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 1332 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (13 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 2227 times:

I remember that a Scandinavian airline once selected Airbus over Boeing for widebodies and has stated that it was aiming for all-Airbus for widebodies and Boeing for single-aisle jets - which one was it?

User currently offlineVikke From Finland, joined May 2000, 16 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (13 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 2212 times:

Joni,
the long-range capacity increase probably means that the 4th MD-11, OH-LGD, might be transferred back from charter flying to scheduled long-range sectors.

Kai,
you probably have now read press release through more carefully. You may have noticed that one of the factors leading to this operation profit increase was axing several non-profitable routes including SFO, YYZ and KIX although YYZ was flown as charter last summer using 757's. So the capacity increase is probably aimed to far-east i.e. PEK, BKK and SIN where loadfactors are good especially in the business class. Sorry to disappoint you.

Hagi,
to my knowledge, there has been intensions to increase capacity in the schedueled traffic NOT fleet expansion.This is achieved by converting OH-LGD from charter to 2-class config. and use it in scheduelled operations.

Samppa


User currently offlineHagi From Finland, joined Jun 1999, 176 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (13 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 2181 times:

Yeah, I heard about converting LGD back to scheduled config, too, but I doubt that is the "significant" capacity boost we're talking about.

My guess is they'll go for smaller planes and increased frequencies in these highly profitable routes. That could even mean A330-200/A340-200...

- Hagi


User currently offlineVikke From Finland, joined May 2000, 16 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (13 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 2151 times:

Hagi,
one question for you: in your opinion how big must the capacity boost be that you would consider it to be "significant" ?

If AY converts OH-LGD back to schedueled config, it would probably give about 20 -25 % more capacity depending the cabin lay-out.

Samppa


User currently offlineAA737-800 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (13 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 2147 times:

I bet they'll go A330.

AA737-800


User currently offlineAlle From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (13 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 2132 times:

I hope they order the A340!

User currently offlineAlle From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (13 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 2133 times:

Hope that they'll put PTV's in Economy!

User currently offlineRayChuang From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 7929 posts, RR: 5
Reply 20, posted (13 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 2133 times:

I have my doubts that AY will order the A330 series.

Two reasons: 1) the A330-200 has smaller capacity than the MD-11 and 2) the A330-330 has much less range than the MD-11.

That's why I think if AY replaces their MD-11 fleet they may either buy the A340-300E new or get them on ten-year lease from ILFC or GECAS (e.g., they may take the ex-SQ planes). Like I said, earlier, the A340-300E has the range to fly HEL-JFK, HEL-NRT and HEL-SIN non-stop year-round easily.


User currently offlineHagi From Finland, joined Jun 1999, 176 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (13 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 2112 times:

Vikke,

I understand your point and agree that a 20-25% increase is much per se. But we are talking about a very small scale of only a handful of aircraft - therefore, it's not significant "in reality". Err... what I'm trying to say is that you can't make a big difference with just one extra aircraft.

And that's another point entirely, since admittedly, no hard data was published about new destinations, route frequencies etc (probably because no plans exist yet). So we can't really assume they'll do anything more than perhaps make HEL-BKK-SIN a daily flight and maybe have some backup reserve more easily at hand in case something breaks down on the other side of the globe... for which a fourth 2-class MD-11 would suffice.

But I have a hunch Finnair is more and more worried about the growing presence of SAS in the longhaul market and intend to do something about that.

- Hagi


User currently offlineJoge From Finland, joined Feb 2000, 1443 posts, RR: 40
Reply 22, posted (13 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 2093 times:

Hi,

In my opinion, for training, maintenance etc, the Airbus (330 or 340) is the right choice for Finnair as a next long haul plane. Or mixed the two above: 330s for leisure destinations, and 340s for the routes to US and the Far East.

By the way, MD-87 doesn't belong to Finnair's fleet anymore. The third and last one is going to be sold (or leased) in the near future.

Best regards,
Jorgos T.
EFHK
http://fly.to/joge



Bula!
User currently offlineRed Panda From Hong Kong, joined Jun 2000, 1521 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (13 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 2077 times:

I think Finnair would buy A345/346 too. Since Finnair wanna have some more capacity on its a/c, it's better to have either 345/346 or 772er/773er instead of just a330/343. MD-11 has pretty much the same pax capacity as A330/343, so if Finnair really wanna increase capacity, it has to acquire some a/c larger than a330/343. UNLESS, finnair is going to launch more frequent service w/ smaller a/c such as A332, or some size a/c such as A330/343.

Regards  ,
R Panda


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