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Canada Wants US Style EU Open Skies Agreement  
User currently offlineLaxintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24729 posts, RR: 46
Posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 3233 times:

Canada Wants EU As Next Open-Skies Partner

03/26/2007

The Canadian government hopes to begin talks with the European Union this year on an open-skies deal similar to the one tentatively reached last week with the U.S.

A Canadian Embassy spokesman said the government is getting pressure from its airlines and airports, but mostly its airports. "They want air service from anywhere," he said. Transport Canada officials have said they are open to Open Skies, or what they call Blue Skies, with many different countries. But because an open-skies agreement with the U.S. came into effect earlier this month, and because the U.S. looks like it now will enjoy far fewer restrictions with the EU, it is logical for Canada to go after the EU.


Full article (paid subscription)
http://www.aviationweek.com/publicat...ants+EU+As+Next+Open-Skies+Partner


From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
16 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineANother From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 3042 times:

Why not join the US-EU agreement?

User currently offlineEmirates029 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2007, 179 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 3033 times:

I wouldnt have thought that were possible, since Canada isn't part of the EU or the US?

User currently offlineANother From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 3021 times:

Quoting Emirates029 (Reply 2):
I wouldnt have thought that were possible, since Canada isn't part of the EU or the US?

Only the name would have to change. Look at it this way

US-EU - open skies
US-CA - open skies
CA-EU - wants open skies

After Canada joins they could invite other like thinking countries to join


User currently offlineDrgmobile From Canada, joined Aug 2006, 594 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 2942 times:

This is old news. The EU made an ouverture to Canada early in the year and the government accepted the concept and already has held a round or two of exploratory talks. There is to be an update to stakeholders within the next couple of weeks.

This is important for Canada as many of the bilaterals are still very restrictive in cases in which the U.S. already had Open Skies agreements with the individual member (Germany, Italy, Netherlands, Belgium, France, etc...).

A big question is whether all of the EU's members would consent to an Open Aviation Area with Canada. Would France, in which Canada's Transat has a major retail network and name recognition and already is the biggest transporter of French tourists to Canada, consent to Canadian carriers having fifths out of France, for example?


User currently offlineLaxintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24729 posts, RR: 46
Reply 5, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 2830 times:

Good points.

Canada does have open skies agreement with the UK which as signed in 2006 and a few other European countries. Will be interesting to see if the rest of the EU bloc, particularly France jump on the band wagon.

I suppose one question would be, what benefits does the EU get from Canada in return when an open skies agreement would very much more benefit Canadian carriers due to the disparity in the size of markets?



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineGlom From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2005, 2815 posts, RR: 10
Reply 6, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 2815 times:

Will this also be just for the fifth freedom?

User currently offlineDrgmobile From Canada, joined Aug 2006, 594 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 2810 times:

Canada does have open skies agreement with the UK which as signed in 2006 and a few other European countries. Will be interesting to see if the rest of the EU bloc, particularly France jump on the band wagon.

I suppose one question would be, what benefits does the EU get from Canada in return when an open skies agreement would very much more benefit Canadian carriers due to the disparity in the size of markets?


I am not familiar with the particulars but it is my understanding that the UK agreement does not meet test of a "true" Open Skies agreement, but it is certainly close. There certainly are no other Open Skies agreements between Canada and European nations, although a more liberal agreement was negotiated with Portugal last year.

The EU would get the same "benefits" that Canada would get -- fifths, sixths, hopefully cargo sevenths as well as the lifting on restrictions of points served, capacity, etc... Plus it would get the recognition of EU carriers as "EU" and not French, Dutch, etc... There are European carriers that are interested in serving Canada more than they do today but are thwarted by bilaterals, for example.


User currently offlineSebring From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 1663 posts, RR: 14
Reply 8, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 2778 times:

Quoting Drgmobile (Reply 7):
I am not familiar with the particulars but it is my understanding that the UK agreement does not meet test of a "true" Open Skies agreement, but it is certainly close. There certainly are no other Open Skies agreements between Canada and European nations, although a more liberal agreement was negotiated with Portugal last year.The EU would get the same "benefits" that Canada would get -- fifths, sixths, hopefully cargo sevenths as well as the lifting on restrictions of points served, capacity, etc... Plus it would get the recognition of EU carriers as "EU" and not French, Dutch, etc... There are European carriers that are interested in serving Canada more than they do today but are thwarted by bilaterals, for ex

Canada already has liberal fifth freedoms in several bilaterals, including Germany and the Netherlands and has had them for well over a decade. I doubt there is much for Canada to gain in the area of freedoms that any Canadian carrier would actually use, not just Air Canada, but Transat, Zoom and Skyservice. Some EU carriers will add a route or two, but as with the Canada-US agreement, the actual route benefits of a Canada-EU agreement will be much less than they will be perceived or promoted. I can see new pricing flexibilities and the liberalization of some charter issues - such as in the Canada-France bilateral where the French periodically try to monkey with Canadian charter capacity - as being far more useful than any route rights. The U.S. put a high priority on LHR access, which may not be a major "ask" for Canada since AC has navigated the shoals of LHR restraints quite successfully. Now, if AC got more free slots and gave up some leased slots, there would be a cash benefit for AC. AC might want more FRA slots, but I assume if it wants to launch YEG-FRA, LH would oblige with a slot since it would revenue-share the flight and might prefer that to giving up a slot to a rival carrier. I don't see any Canadian carrier interested in intra-Europe services a an extension of flights from Canada just as I don't see the American carriers doing intra-Europe flying under the new agreement. Any attraction in fifths would be for Europe-Asia, Europe-Africa, etc., and to make those work, one needs third country agreements.


User currently offlineConnector4you From Canada, joined May 2001, 932 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 2679 times:

Quoting Drgmobile (Reply 4):
A big question is whether all of the EU's members would consent to an Open Aviation Area with Canada

Some visa matters to be solved first


User currently offlineTi717 From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 227 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 2641 times:

Quoting Emirates029 (Reply 2):
Canada isn't part of the EU or the US

I thought it was the 51 st State.  stirthepot   duck 



Sir, don't you think we should turn on the runway lights?" "No, that's just what there expecting us to do!"
User currently offlineDrgmobile From Canada, joined Aug 2006, 594 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 2611 times:

Canada already has liberal fifth freedoms in several bilaterals, including Germany and the Netherlands and has had them for well over a decade. I doubt there is much for Canada to gain in the area of freedoms that any Canadian carrier would actually use, not just Air Canada, but Transat, Zoom and Skyservice.

And yet funny how the Canadian carriers are bullish on Canada-EU. Everybody seems to be bullish on it, in fact. Canadian carriers, European carriers (there are a couple in particular I can think of) and airports all around.


User currently offlineSebring From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 1663 posts, RR: 14
Reply 12, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 2582 times:

Quoting Drgmobile (Reply 11):

And yet funny how the Canadian carriers are bullish on Canada-EU. Everybody seems to be bullish on it, in fact. Canadian carriers, European carriers (there are a couple in particular I can think of) and airports all around.

I don't know the basis on which you conclude that Canadian carriers are bullish about this. I just know that nobody is particularly vexed about it, particular because the actual benefits are likely to be less than the perceived benefits.


User currently offlineSLCUT2777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 4019 posts, RR: 11
Reply 13, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 2462 times:

Quoting Ti717 (Reply 10):
I thought it was the 51 st State.  stirthepot   duck 

 laughing  There are those of us who have a Canadian spouse! So we consider ourselves a trans-border household, but I love to kid her around about her great grand-parents on her fathers side being Americans originally, and going back still many generations more; Freedom fighters in the American Revolution!
I can't help but laugh at how Canada is so affected economically by the great colossus south of the 49th! As for being the 51st state, yeah it's about the size of California population wise, but Canadians take pride in their provincial governments, so if Quebec ever decided to go out on it's own, the other 9 provinces just petition congress for statehood is my joke!  duck 
Since the U.S. & Canada are so tied together economically, it might be a good idea to link such Open Skies or Blue Skies treaties as being E.U. with N.A.F.T.A.



DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
User currently offlineDrgmobile From Canada, joined Aug 2006, 594 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 2379 times:

I don't know the basis on which you conclude that Canadian carriers are bullish about this. I just know that nobody is particularly vexed about it, particular because the actual benefits are likely to be less than the perceived benefits.

Based on what is being said both publicly and privately. Of course it would depend on whose "perceived benefits" you are referring to. I don't know that anybody in the industry is projecting a pie in the sky revolutionary traffic explosion.

There will always be armchair naysayers but I am confident that an Open Aviation Area between the EU and Canada will create opportunities, and more importantly the flexibility, for air carriers of both sides of the Atlantic to launch new service. Do I think it will mean a doubling of trans-Atlantic traffic for AC in five years? Not so much. But that itsn't (nor should it be) the litmus test.


User currently offlineStarGoldLHR From Heard and McDonald Islands, joined Feb 2004, 1529 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 2353 times:

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 5):
I suppose one question would be, what benefits does the EU get from Canada in return when an open skies agreement would very much more benefit Canadian carriers due to the disparity in the size of markets?

Avoiding connections in the US.. would be a major benefit.

Actually access to the trans-canadian market may open more route possibilities to rural canada than open skies in the US would mean for EU airlines.

I mean Winnipeg / Edmonton to FRA may be viable.

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 13):
I thought it was the 51 st State.

I thought the US was Canada's 11th renegade province.



So far in 2008 45 flights and Gold already. JFK, IAD, LGA, SIN, HKG, NRT, AKL, PPT, LAX still to book ! Home Airport LCY
User currently offlineSebring From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 1663 posts, RR: 14
Reply 16, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 2341 times:

Quoting StarGoldLHR (Reply 15):

Actually access to the trans-canadian market may open more route possibilities to rural canada than open skies in the US would mean for EU airlines.

I mean Winnipeg / Edmonton to FRA may be viable.

Got a FRA slot to throw at YEG? AC and LH can fly that route now. You'll find a lot of the best route ideas you can come up with could be flown now by major carriers. The liklihood of AF or BA starting YEG-FRA when FRA slots are so dear is pretty low. If AF got a pile of FRA slots, there would be far more tempting opportunities in other parts of the world. You can say the same thing about many other theoretical routings that would open up under an open skies agreement.


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