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Boeing Has A New Toy....  
User currently offlineBoeing7E7 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (7 years 8 months 2 hours ago) and read 15126 times:

Not for commercial aircraft, but runs on a fuel cell none the less....

http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/2007/q1/070327e_nr.html

21 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineN328KF From United States of America, joined May 2004, 6491 posts, RR: 3
Reply 1, posted (7 years 8 months 2 hours ago) and read 15095 times:

You are aware that the 787 is fuel-cell ready, right? Even MSN1 will be retrofittable.


When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' T.Roosevelt
User currently offlineBoeing7E7 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (7 years 8 months 2 hours ago) and read 15071 times:

Quoting N328KF (Reply 1):
You are aware that the 787 is fuel-cell ready, right?

I'm pretty sure the entire aviation world is aware. This is a fuel cell aircraft, not an APU.

"While Boeing does not envision that fuel cells will provide primary power for future commercial passenger airplanes, demonstrations like this help pave the way for potentially using this technology in small manned and unmanned air vehicles," Escarti said. "It also gives us hands-on experience to complement other fuel-cell studies being carried out throughout the company."

[Edited 2007-03-28 01:01:39]

User currently offlineMCIGuy From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 1936 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (7 years 8 months 2 hours ago) and read 14962 times:

Phantom Works = military apps.


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User currently offlineDEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4930 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (7 years 8 months 2 hours ago) and read 14914 times:

I wonder how long it would take before the technology trickles down to a level that could be affordable by the General Aviation sector. But first, it must succeed.

BTW, I see this thread as more appropriate for Tech/Ops.



"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineHighFlyer9790 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 1241 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (7 years 8 months ago) and read 14492 times:

Quoting N328KF (Reply 1):
You are aware that the 787 is fuel-cell ready, right? Even MSN1 will be retrofittable.

really? didnt know that....what exactly is a fuel cell though? i think i am confusing it with something else...



121
User currently offlineSirOmega From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 735 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (7 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 14067 times:

Fuel cell is a device which combines hydrogen with oxygen to create electricity. I assume that he means the APU could be replaced with a big fuel cell, but I dont know where they'd store the hydrogen. It would only give off water vapor, which could be used as potable water onboard the a/c.

User currently offlineZenarcade From Canada, joined Nov 2006, 85 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (7 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 14019 times:

Pardon my ignorance but assuming this technology eventually reaches the GA market wouldn't the storage and handling of hydrogen be quite dangerous? I'm sure that there would be many other expenses behind the scenes as well, would it really be worth it?

How about the cost of hydrogen compared to jet fuel?



If a plane falls on the tarmac and no one is there, does it make any sound? - Starlionblue
User currently offline3201 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (7 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 13993 times:

Quoting MCIGuy (Reply 3):
Phantom Works = military apps.

That didn't used to be the case, even a couple of years ago -- a lot of advanced civil R&D was there too. Are you just jumping to conclusions because of the name, or do you really know what you're talking about?


User currently offlineRichardPrice From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (7 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 13718 times:

Quoting SirOmega (Reply 6):
Fuel cell is a device which combines hydrogen with oxygen to create electricity. I assume that he means the APU could be replaced with a big fuel cell, but I dont know where they'd store the hydrogen. It would only give off water vapor, which could be used as potable water onboard the a/c.



Quoting Zenarcade (Reply 7):
How about the cost of hydrogen compared to jet fuel?

You wouldnt ship Hydrogen around, you would take a feed from a pure water source, split it using the reverse process and store the resultant hydrogen and oxygen in the fuel cell. All on site during the refueling process.

Of course it may never need fully refueling, just topping up - they could store the water created as part of the process and just have an external power source to split it on the ground again, with a little topping up done to replace any loss.


User currently offlineMCIGuy From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 1936 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (7 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 13647 times:

Quoting 3201 (Reply 8):

Well they may have gotten off into some other stuff in the last few years, but everyone knows they've essentially been the Boeing (McD) equivalent to the Lockheed Skunk Works. The X-32 was developed by the Phantom Works.



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User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31226 posts, RR: 85
Reply 11, posted (7 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 11490 times:
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Many technologies developed first for the military find civilian application...

User currently offlineDeltaDC9 From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 2844 posts, RR: 4
Reply 12, posted (7 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 11326 times:

Quoting 3201 (Reply 8):
Quoting MCIGuy (Reply 3):
Phantom Works = military apps.

That didn't used to be the case, even a couple of years ago -- a lot of advanced civil R&D was there too. Are you just jumping to conclusions because of the name, or do you really know what you're talking about?

AFAIK both Phantomworks at MD/Boeing and Skunkworks at Lockmart were developed so that those respective companes could R&D out of the NASA/JPL world spotlight. Never heard of any restrictions re civil vs military.



Dont take life too seriously because you will never get out of it alive - Bugs Bunny
User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12171 posts, RR: 51
Reply 13, posted (7 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 8135 times:

Quoting MCIGuy (Reply 3):
Phantom Works = military apps.

Both true and not true. The Phantom Works does do military work, but they also developed the Sonic Cruiser a few years ago, and have been heavierly involved in the B-787 designs.


User currently offlineSkyexramper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (7 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 8096 times:

So boeing just modified the Diamond Katana?

User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 15, posted (7 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 6667 times:

Its a Dimona, not a Katana.

NS


User currently offlineOroka From Canada, joined Dec 2006, 913 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (7 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 4381 times:

Quoting Zenarcade (Reply 7):
Pardon my ignorance but assuming this technology eventually reaches the GA market wouldn't the storage and handling of hydrogen be quite dangerous?

Fuel cells wont necessarily have to use hydrogen. A recently developed technology uses almost any source of SUGAR to generate 3-4x the power that could be stored in a equivalent sized battery.

http://news.mongabay.com/2007/0326-battery.html


User currently offlineKELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 6428 posts, RR: 3
Reply 17, posted (7 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 4211 times:

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 15):
Its a Dimona, not a Katana.

NS

Marketed in North America as the "Diamond Katana":

http://www.diamondair.com/mainpage.php

 Smile



Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
User currently offlineVorticity From United States of America, joined May 2004, 337 posts, RR: 5
Reply 18, posted (7 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 4211 times:

Quoting MCIGuy (Reply 3):
Phantom Works = military apps.

Not true. Phantom Works is Boeing's designated Research and Development unit. While their ties are closer with the IDS division, they do develop technology for Boeing Commercial Airplanes.



Thermodynamics and english units don't mix...
User currently offlineDeltaDC9 From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 2844 posts, RR: 4
Reply 19, posted (7 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 4021 times:

Quoting Zenarcade (Reply 7):
Pardon my ignorance but assuming this technology eventually reaches the GA market wouldn't the storage and handling of hydrogen be quite dangerous? I'm sure that there would be many other expenses behind the scenes as well, would it really be worth it?

Fuel cell powered vehicles are already on the market built by GM and others. The US Army has a fleet of fuel cell chevy pickups, and they are about to unleash new more advanced vehicles ot the general public in the next couple years. Shouldnt be a problem for planes.



Dont take life too seriously because you will never get out of it alive - Bugs Bunny
User currently offlinePrebennorholm From Denmark, joined Mar 2000, 6511 posts, RR: 54
Reply 20, posted (7 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 2637 times:

Quote from the article: "A fuel cell is an electrochemical device that converts hydrogen directly into electricity and heat without combustion. Fuel cells are emission-free and quieter than hydrocarbon fuel-powered engines. They save fuel and are cleaner for the environment." End of quote.

And how do we produce hydrogen? Mostly by burning a lot of coal in electric power plants.

Always remember, hydrogen is not a power source. It's a power storage medium. By spending a lot of power you can create hydrogen, and then you can get some of that power back again by spending the hydrogen in a fuel cell or burning it in a turbine engine.

The hydrogen cycle is like charging and discharging a battery, no more, no less. But the storage medium is potentially less heavy than for instance a lead-acid battery of similar capacity.

Hydrogen fuel cells are as "emission-free" as the power source which produces it. Which is very dirty when produced from a coal fired power plant.



Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs, Preben Norholm
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21791 posts, RR: 55
Reply 21, posted (7 years 7 months 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 2201 times:

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 17):
Quoting Gigneil (Reply 15):
Its a Dimona, not a Katana.

NS

Marketed in North America as the "Diamond Katana":

A Dimona is not a Katana. I don't believe Diamond markets the Dimona in the US.

Katana:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © TZ Aviation



Dimona:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Florian Sindermann



One has a much larger wingspan than the other.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
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