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Airbus Demands More Government Funding  
User currently offlineClickhappy From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 9654 posts, RR: 68
Posted (7 years 8 months 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 6222 times:
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Airbus tells MPs that it needs more taxpayers' money. Qatar Airways to make key $16bn order for A350

Airbus UK will require further funding from the Government to safeguard its survival, MPs were told today.

Iain Gray, the managing director of the aircraft maker’s UK division, told the Trade and Industry Committee that the struggling company is at a “crossroads” after announcing 1,600 job losses in the UK last month.

He said: “We indisputably need government funding in terms of technology investment ? It is fundamental that we secure investment in future technology.”


http://business.timesonline.co.uk/to...ors/engineering/article1576815.ece

51 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineFuturecaptain From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (7 years 8 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 6130 times:

Well then Airbus can go to a bank and get some money at interest rates that reflect their current situation. It'd be great if the taxpayers gave Airbus the finger on this. Especially now, after job cuts, I bet I can name 1600 people in the UK who dont want to give Airbus any tax money.  Wink

User currently offlineEatmybologna From France, joined Apr 2005, 412 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (7 years 8 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 6130 times:

Quoting Futurecaptain (Reply 2):
I bet I can name 1600 people in the UK who dont want to give Airbus any tax money.

But with further investment by the government, those 1600 individuals may enjoy a re-hiring.



Isn't knowledge more than just the acquisition of information? Shouldn't the acquired information be correct?
User currently offlineSlider From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6912 posts, RR: 34
Reply 3, posted (7 years 8 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 6120 times:

Quoting Eatmybologna (Reply 3):

But with further investment by the government, those 1600 individuals may enjoy a re-hiring.

Or maybe, JUST MAYBE, if Airbus restructures and does what it needs in the context of a free market economy and not some Pan-European socialist nightmare that it's presently immersed in, then Airbus won't have to hack another 1600.

Your answer reflects your opinion on government's position in the grand scheme. Very illuminating.

[Edited 2007-03-28 19:11:36]

User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21562 posts, RR: 59
Reply 4, posted (7 years 8 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 6106 times:

Quoting Eatmybologna (Reply 3):
But with further investment by the government, those 1600 individuals may enjoy a re-hiring.

If they want to move to Russia, sure.

Airbus is running to Dad for money again, after everyone said they were finally standing on their own two feet. And worse, they are demanding Dad fork it over, laying out a guilt trip.

Airbus, dude, you're 35 years old. It's time to leave the nest, buddy!



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineEatmybologna From France, joined Apr 2005, 412 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (7 years 8 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 6079 times:

Quoting Slider (Reply 5):
Your answer reflects your opinion on government's position in the grand scheme. Very illuminating.

For the purpose of "securing investment in future technology" - I feel that government intervention may be appropriate.



Isn't knowledge more than just the acquisition of information? Shouldn't the acquired information be correct?
User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8436 posts, RR: 9
Reply 6, posted (7 years 8 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 6060 times:

In terms of the UK Government making an investment in the UK company I tend to support the idea - as long as it ensures that Airbus will NOT move the work out of the UK in the future.

The investment would then be very much like US style incentives made by cities and towns to secure long term local jobs. Even little old TUL has come up with incentives in the past that supports job growth and/or stability.


User currently offline707lvr From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 585 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (7 years 8 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 6006 times:

1600 layoffs? 1600!? That's an average week at Boeing in an off year. I don't remember them demanding government "funding/launch aid" (which I obviously don't understand either. Something Magic probably.)

User currently offlineHB88 From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2005, 817 posts, RR: 31
Reply 8, posted (7 years 8 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 5976 times:

Quoting 707lvr (Reply 11):
1600 layoffs? 1600!? That's an average week at Boeing in an off year. I don't remember them demanding government "funding/launch aid" (which I obviously don't understand either. Something Magic probably.)

http://www.wto.org/english/tratop_e/dispu_e/cases_e/ds316_e.htm

Here you will find details of Boeings complaint against Airbus and elsewhere details of the alleged illegal subsidies paid to Boeing.


User currently onlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31261 posts, RR: 85
Reply 9, posted (7 years 8 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 5954 times:
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"Securing investment in future technology" is what Japan and Italy did for the 787, so I hope both "Boeing Boosters" and "Airbus Aficionados" take that into account when they blast the UK for wanting to do the same for Airbus or blasting Japan and Italy for doing it for Boeing, respectively.  Wink

User currently offlineERJ170 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 6784 posts, RR: 17
Reply 10, posted (7 years 8 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 5920 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 14):
Securing investment in future technology" is what Japan and Italy did for the 787

Did that go directly to Boeing, or did Japan and Italian companies use it to aid in their creation of what Boeing had designed? If that's the case, then that is a different story because the companies are actually getting the investment for their purposes..

However, if the funds Japan and Italy raised was then sent to Boeing directly, then that would be something totally different.. but from the headlines, it seems that is what Airbus is wanting.. some funds directly from the government to the company..

but, i could be wrong.



Aiming High and going far..
User currently onlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31261 posts, RR: 85
Reply 11, posted (7 years 8 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 5836 times:
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Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 15):
Did that go directly to Boeing, or did Japan and Italian companies use it to aid in their creation of what Boeing had designed?

They used it to make their industries more competitive so when Boeing was searching for partners, they chose them and not others (like Russia or China).

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 15):
If that's the case, then that is a different story because the companies are actually getting the investment for their purposes...

While Airbus UK only (currently) builds wings for Airbus, Mitsubishi is only (currently) building wings for Boeing. So even if Mitsubishi is not a direct subsidiary of Boeing, only Boeing is benefiting from that investment, so I'm more inclined to say the two are more similar then dissimilar and feel if someone argues for or against one, they should also argue for or against the other.


User currently offlineScbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12808 posts, RR: 46
Reply 12, posted (7 years 8 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 5718 times:
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Quoting Stitch (Reply 17):
They used it to make their industries more competitive so when Boeing was searching for partners, they chose them and not others (like Russia or China).

I believe this is the type of indirect subsidy that is actually illegal under WTO rules, and forms part of the EU's counter to the US's case.

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 15):
Did that go directly to Boeing

Not directly, but such indirect subsidies are, I believe, illegal under WTO rules. How is it indirect? Boeing benefits because the subcontractor is able to bid a lower price than if they didn't have the subsidy, thus Boeing benefits by getting its parts cheaper than they would from an unsubsidised subcontractor.



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana! #44cHAMpion
User currently offlineSkepticAll From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (7 years 8 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 5539 times:

While some may argue that Boeing has been in the past, recipient of 'trickle-down' subsidies via the US government, I don't believe I have ever come across such blatant hands-out tactics such as those displayed by EADS, Airbus, and their respective subsidiaries. The Airbus UK spokesman decries the lack of funds for the development of composite materials for future aircraft development:

Filton needs to be transformed to handle carbon fibre composites, which will be used in Airbus’s next generation of long-haul jets, a move that Airbus would not be able to afford without Government assistance, he said.

I'm sorry, but I don't recall Boeing demanding from the US government the funding necessary to develop the composite materials used on the B787. Yes, the Airbus vs. Boeing debate is a heated one, becoming increasingly so anytime the discussion turns to what is clearly in the eyes of Boeing and it's supporters, governmental sponsorship of a company competing in what is purported to be a free and open market economy.

[Edited 2007-03-28 22:27:58]

User currently offlineLawgman From Canada, joined Feb 2005, 71 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (7 years 8 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 5442 times:

This does not seem to be launch aid but instead some other request for funding.

This request reminds me of the funding received by the auto industry in North America where the various states give Toyota, Honda and the not so big 3 auto manufacturers $$$ to set up auto manufacturing plants and/or refresh older ones.


User currently offlineLeskova From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 6075 posts, RR: 70
Reply 15, posted (7 years 8 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 5438 times:

I have to admit, I love this thread - of all the threads in which people continuously spout anything between nonsense and completely inane nonsense, this one really takes the cake.

But it's just the usual nonsense - wonderful "facts" such as Europe being socialist (sorry, we just don't believe that people are commodities over here - tough luck if you can't live with that), or that Airbus gets 'zero-interest "loans"' - an oft recited, but nonetheless still not factual, comment.

Am I glad that an Airbus official made these comments? Hardly. Am I glad that Airbus is not as profitable as it could be right now? Hardly. Am I glad that the A380 project has suffered severely from the delays, or that the A350 took several tries before it got to where it is now? Well... I guess you know the answer.

So some people in Europe have different priorities than some in the US... big surprise... so? Learn to live with it - you'll learn to enjoy your life much more than you seem to be capable of today.



Smile - it confuses people!
User currently onlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31261 posts, RR: 85
Reply 16, posted (7 years 8 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 5320 times:
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Quoting Scbriml (Reply 20):
I believe this is the type of indirect subsidy that is actually illegal under WTO rules, and forms part of the EU's counter to the US's case.

Well if that is true, then Airbus UK is being a bit hypocritical by asking for essentially the same thing.  Sad


User currently onlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31261 posts, RR: 85
Reply 17, posted (7 years 8 months 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 5024 times:
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Boeing is never going to repay the Japanese because it's not a loan and you all (should) know that.

What Airbus UK is asking for isn't a loan, either.

Nor the money Spirit received from KS to build Boeing and Airbus parts.

Nor what China forked over to land the A320 plant.

I could go on (and on and on and on), but it would just fall on willfully deaf ears, I imagine.

It's why these whizzing matches between "Airbus Aficionados" and "Boeing Boosters" are so...useless...except to just stir the pot for the sake of stirring the pot because both sides know the other will start foaming at the mouth when they do so and folks find some cruel sport in watching the fireworks...  sigh 


User currently offlineClickhappy From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 9654 posts, RR: 68
Reply 18, posted (7 years 8 months 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 5018 times:
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I know that Mitsubishi, Kawasaki and Fuji Heavy Industries have provided Boeing with money, in exchange for 787 work (among other projects) but these are risk sharing partners.

Please show me where Boeing has gotten money from the Japanese government. Is Japan providing money to companies like Kawasaki? I am sure they are, but I would like some proof that Japan has invested directly in Boeing (so called 'launch aid').


User currently offlineScalebuilder From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (7 years 8 months 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 4894 times:

Quoting Leskova (Reply 35):
So some people in Europe have different priorities than some in the US... big surprise... so? Learn to live with it - you'll learn to enjoy your life much more than you seem to be capable of today.

This is a pretty senseless statement to make in light of this discussion. What you state could mean too much or too little -everything from Europe operating it's business world inefficently to America being too efficient in how they they run their's, and forgetting too how to enjoy life on top of it. Americans are proud of enjoying a good life due to working hard, and every day, and I think this country plays by fair rules too. Are you telling me that Europe is enjoying a vacation these days in an ever increasing competitive world? Sounds like it, and you seem to think Europeeans deserve it too, just because the way they have "ever lived". This is a stale mentality. If other parts of this world can work harder - or smarter for that matter - is there anything wrong with that? Tell me if you do.

I have lived in the US for almost 20 years. I am actually born and raised in Europe. Simply could not go back just to claim the "right" for something that I never put effort into or earned just because my social infrastructure or governmental mentality gave me the right to do so. I rather earn my keep even if I was left with nothing right here in the US.

I had a hard time making sense out of your post.

Sincerely,

Scalebuilder


User currently offlineAstuteman From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 10189 posts, RR: 97
Reply 20, posted (7 years 8 months 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 4830 times:
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Quoting Clickhappy (Thread starter):
He said: “We indisputably need government funding in terms of technology investment ? It is fundamental that we secure investment in future technology.”

This is where the funding arguments get a bit more interesting......
Obviously, RLI is a controversial funding vehicle, although specifically covered by bi-lateral agreement.

There's no doubt in my mind that most governments in developed countries would see the "securing of investment in future technology" as a strategic issue of national importance (commercial debates notwithstanding..)
I can't believe even the USA and it's (allegedly) "pure capitalist" model would leave the development of future strategic technologies purely in the hands of market forces.....

Quoting Stitch (Reply 14):
"Securing investment in future technology" is what Japan and Italy did for the 787

 checkmark  Indeed  Smile

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 15):
Did that go directly to Boeing

Insofar as the government intervention reduces the "cost" to Boeing of the parts being made, the distinction matters little in terms of market distortion. It makes 787's "cheaper"......
(I don't have a major issue with it, BTW, any more than I do with the thread starting topic..)

Quoting Stitch (Reply 44):
It's why these whizzing matches between "Airbus Aficionados" and "Boeing Boosters" are so...useless

 thumbsup 
My vote for the summary and close, Stitch...

Regards


User currently offlineSWALoveField From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 179 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (7 years 8 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 4611 times:

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 4):
Airbus, dude, you're 35 years old. It's time to leave the nest, buddy!

Perfect! You made your bed, now lay in it Airbus. When a company can find ways on its own to overcome bad times, it makes the company stronger. Get stronger Airbus!

Quoting Leskova (Reply 15):
So some people in Europe have different priorities than some in the US... big surprise... so? Learn to live with it - you'll learn to enjoy your life much more than you seem to be capable of today.

Whoa! I love the fact that Europe is different than America. How boring if they were to be exactly the same. Lets not fall into the trap that just because someone's culture is different that does not mean it is "bad."

Airbus is a great company that is experiencing a rough patch. (We can debate all day long how big a patch that is.) When they innovate and get creative in their response to their situation and find ways on THEIR OWN to get past the rough patch, they will be better for it. Good luck.

Robb
Dallas, TX


User currently offlineToulouse From Switzerland, joined Apr 2005, 2759 posts, RR: 57
Reply 22, posted (7 years 8 months 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 3881 times:

Quoting Leskova (Reply 15):
But it's just the usual nonsense - wonderful "facts" such as Europe being socialist (sorry, we just don't believe that people are commodities over here - tough luck if you can't live with that), or that Airbus gets 'zero-interest "loans"' - an oft recited, but nonetheless still not factual, comment.

So very well said. I am so SICK AND TIRED of listening to this stupid Europe=Socialism nonesense that comes from some of our American friends.

Quoting Leskova (Reply 15):
So some people in Europe have different priorities than some in the US... big surprise... so? Learn to live with it - you'll learn to enjoy your life much more than you seem to be capable of today.

Exactly, things vary from one place to another.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 17):
Boeing is never going to repay the Japanese because it's not a loan and you all (should) know that.

What Airbus UK is asking for isn't a loan, either.

Nor the money Spirit received from KS to build Boeing and Airbus parts.

Nor what China forked over to land the A320 plant.

I could go on (and on and on and on), but it would just fall on willfully deaf ears, I imagine.

It's why these whizzing matches between "Airbus Aficionados" and "Boeing Boosters" are so...useless...except to just stir the pot for the sake of stirring the pot because both sides know the other will start foaming at the mouth when they do so and folks find some cruel sport in watching the fireworks...

Stitch, after reading your various posts on this thread, all I can say is you have gone up and up and up in my resepct of your opinions.

Quoting Scalebuilder (Reply 19):
This is a pretty senseless statement to make in light of this discussion.

Why is it? I don't think it is. Some of you US a.netters (albeit and thankfully a minority) when posting on anything Airbus or EU related just come our with the same old ridiculous "Europe is socialist", "Airbus gets free money", "I hope Airbus fails" comments. A. They are childish comments, B. They show just how little you know about how Europe works.

Quoting Scalebuilder (Reply 19):
Americans are proud of enjoying a good life due to working hard, and every day, and I think this country plays by fair rules too. Are you telling me that Europe is enjoying a vacation these days in an ever increasing competitive world? Sounds like it, and you seem to think Europeeans deserve it too, just because the way they have "ever lived"

Well great, I'm delighted that Amercans are proud of enjoying a good life due to working hard. And you know what, so are most Europeans. What do you think? We're on holidays all the time? WAKE UP AND SMELL THE COFFEE. Sure, we get good paid holidays, like in many parts of the world, would you actually say no if your company said to you "hey, we've decided to give you 4 weeks paid holidays per year"... would you refuse to take them, enjoy life and spend quality time with your family?? I am so sick and tired of this rubbish. I work my ass off and 100% European. Now granted I'm self-employed, but you know what, in France, a country so many of you over there like to criticise, there is a huge percentage of people in my situation. My wife works at Airbus... you know that company you all think that is filled with people that do nothing... sure she has a lot of holidays, but she's in the office every morning at 8 am and now leaves at around 6 pm (simply becuase we had a child), before that it was often 7pm or later...w ay more than the so called 35 hours. At certain times of the year, she works through lunch and leaves the office at 8, 9 or even 10pm... and when she's on call, well that's 24 hours. And you know what, all of the people I know in Airbus work similar long hours. My local GP starts surgery at 8.30am and ends her day about 7pm, Monday to Friday. Our crèche where we have our little boy opens it's doors at 7.30 am (so all those French parents you think don't work thanks to our socialism -and by the way we have a conservative right-wing ruling government- can get to the office on time) and they close their doors at 6:30 (so the girls there work a long day)... and guess what, us, the parents are in discussions with the people who runthe crèche to extend the timetable as we consider 6:30pm is a bit too early to close as it is a bit "limit" for parents getting back from work on time! My local bakery opens at 7am and closes at 8pm. Our local shopping centre opens at 09:30am and closes at 9.30pm.So we Europeans don't work long hours? RUBBISH!
Sure we get free health care, but we pay for that with our hard earned money through taxes... I think it's great. You know I have a friend who had an accident in the US while on holidays some years back, quite serious, some "private" ambulance arrived (I don't know much about your health system, so I'm not knocking it)... he had to pay IN ADVANCE for the ambulance to bring him to hospital, had no money on him, and had to wait about 30 minutes for some other ambulance to arrive which would take him. So if you call our system "socialist", I prefer it that way, and I'm not socialist!

Anyway, as I love statistics (not saying you can believe them), I've just spent/waisted the last hour gathering some statistics. The purpose is as a comparison, mainly between Europe/US. The reason for this is all the above rubbish been spouted by some US a.netters. My intention, to show the balance of things, NOT to say one place is better than the other, but to show we're in a fairly similar situation, and that despite you thinking we're some sort of backward Socialist area, we seem to be doing a good job. Foe the sake of this discussion, I'm only adding European countries and the US, just to simplify things... no disrespect meant to members from other parts of the world!

NOMINAL GDP: As a country, the US is No. 1. When the EU is considered as a single entity, it is actually ranked as the No. 1 in the world. Of the top 10 nations on this list, 6 are European countries.

GDP PPP: 1. Luxembourg, 2. Nowary, 3 US, 4 Ireland, 5 Iceland, 6 Denmark, 9 Austria, 10 Switzerland

Out of interest, 12.6% of the US population lives below the poverty line, worse than in the vast majority of European countrie (diidn't write down many details, but I have the UK at 17%, Ireland at 10% and France at 6.5%.

MOST ECONOMIC COMPETITIVENESS: 1 US, 4 Holland, 5 Finland, 6 Norway, 7 Switzerland, 8 Denmark, 9 Luxembourg, 11 Ireland, 12 UK.

LEAST ECONOMIC CORRUPTION: 1 Debmark, 2 Finland, 3 Sweden, 8 Holland, 9 Norway, 10 Switzerland... 18 US.

HUMAN DEVELOPMENT INDEX: 1 Norway, 2 Iceland, 4 Ireland, 5 Sweden, 8 US, 9 Switzerland, 10 Holland.

QUALITY OF LIFE (life expectancy, educational attainment, real income): 1 Norway, 2 Iceland, 4 Ireland, 5 Sweden, 8 US, 9 Switzerland, 10 Holland.

HOMICIDE RATE PER 100.000 INHABITANTS (these statistics really shocked me!). 36 US, 47 Switzerland, 50 FInland, 53 Scotland, 56 Northern Ireland, 58 Sweden. Wow... so Switzerland comes in with the highest ranking of western European countries!! All other western European countries are placed after Sweden, with a few eastern European countries just ahead of and behind the US 36th world ranking.

Anyway, having wasted so much time, and probably going to have my post deleted for being TOTALLY OFF topic, I'm still posted to see if any of you will just drop all these silly anti Europe discussions.
I love the US, and I love Europe. Personal preference, I'd much prefer to stay in Europe, but I would have no objection to living in the US if I got a "big" job offer... but I have no plans to move.

Quoting Scalebuilder (Reply 19):
This is a stale mentality. If other parts of this world can work harder - or smarter for that matter - is there anything wrong with that? Tell me if you do.

See above.

Quoting Scalebuilder (Reply 19):
I have lived in the US for almost 20 years. I am actually born and raised in Europe. Simply could not go back just to claim the "right" for something that I never put effort into or earned just because my social infrastructure or governmental mentality gave me the right to do so. I rather earn my keep even if I was left with nothing right here in the US.

See above. You see the US and Europe aren't "economically" that different. Funny, I know sooooo many Americans living here in Europe who often tell me they could never go back to the US. Also, I know Europeans who live in the US and love it.

Quoting Scalebuilder (Reply 19):
I had a hard time making sense out of your post.

I didn't.

Quoting SWALoveField (Reply 21):
Lets not fall into the trap that just because someone's culture is different that does not mean it is "bad."

Yes.

Anyway, sorry all, and modrators, I know I'm off topic, but I'm just SICK AND TIRED of this nonesence. I usually try to stay away, but this time I just couldn't help myself! Anyway, I have said nothing to offend anyone, just trying to enlighten some people to the fact that they have a fairly "clouded" view on Europe to put it nicely.



Long live Aer Lingus!
User currently offlineGeorgiaAME From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 994 posts, RR: 6
Reply 23, posted (7 years 8 months 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 3812 times:

Quoting Slider (Reply 3):
what it needs in the context of a free market economy and not some Pan-European socialist nightmare

Now, now. Our beloved moderator gets very upset when we accuse the Europeans of being "socialists", and may want to censor your comment. Oh what the hell, since they are socialists, screw the "taxpayers" . It isn't like it's their money - it is the governments, to be spent by the elitists anyway they choose, and doled out to the public in small amounts as needed. ("From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs" is a very European concept) So if they want to make a short term loan to Airbus, that is their right. We all know that Airbus is going to repay the loan, if the plane sells more than a certain number of units, so what is the big deal?



"Trust, but verify!" An old Russian proverb, quoted often by a modern American hero
User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 24, posted (7 years 8 months 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 3765 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 9):
"Securing investment in future technology" is what Japan and Italy did for the 787, so I hope both "Boeing Boosters" and "Airbus Aficionados" take that into account when they blast the UK for wanting to do the same for Airbus or blasting Japan and Italy for doing it for Boeing, respectively.



Quoting Stitch (Reply 17):
I could go on (and on and on and on), but it would just fall on willfully deaf ears, I imagine.



Quoting Astuteman (Reply 20):

Quoting Stitch (Reply 44):
It's why these whizzing matches between "Airbus Aficionados" and "Boeing Boosters" are so...useless

thumbsup
My vote for the summary and close, Stitch...

Beat me to it (as always) Astuteman. Excellent summary Stitch and then some great follow ups.

There IS something odd about the article in the starter. The type of assistance outlined is what the House of Commons documents state as the aims for RLI. The only difference is that Airbus UK is now owned in the UK. That makes no difference as long as manufacturing would remain in the UK. Being suspicious of journos I suspect the oddness is the work of the journo not Airbus.

I do hope Toulouse's diatribe is not lost, it should be preserved for posterity, or he should post it to non-av in a thread on comparisons of systems. Wonderfully substantiated rant.

[Edited 2007-03-29 14:38:04]

25 Post contains images Toulouse : Why thank you Baroque... I was coming back ashamed and going to delete but after seeing your remark I though "what the heck, sure I'll just leave it"
26 Kalakaua : Umm... Last time I checked, wasn't the EU was made up of small countries? So much for touting your macroeconomics lesson.
27 Toulouse : Sorry, but firstly could you correct your grammar so I can understand what you're saying. I'm not touting. Just providing OFFICIAL international stat
28 USAF336TFS : With all due respect, comparing a single national entity (United States) to the entire EU (An economic association of separate national entities) is
29 Toulouse : Don't think I have much of a command, and you are most probably right. I do agree with you. Nevertheless, this is as it's listed on the statistics I
30 Post contains images Dougloid : And your point is.....what? Or are you just venting? We're a little bit tired of your frigging superiority complex over there, acting as if we're a b
31 Toulouse : You got it... you might be fed up over there with "our" superiority complex, just as we are with that of some Americans... especially here on a.net.
32 Stitch : Folks, we are seriously drifting off-topic here and getting into language that will draw, at best, some deletions from the Moderators.
33 Lumberton : Could someone clarify whether Airbus UK is asking for RLI or a grant in this case?
34 Stitch : Based on the cursory reading of Mr. Gray's statements the article provides, I believe he is asking for "grants" in that they wish the UK government t
35 Post contains images Brilondon : If Airbus cannot afford to develop technology on its own why should governments have to pony up the coin for them to do it. I believe that if the gov
36 Tockeyhockey : my two cents: americans have been taught for years in economics classes that government should play little or no role in the business world. in fact,
37 Baroque : That is a good question that the article manages not to answer. My guess is that as the request looks to meet the RLI criteria, that is what it is. T
38 Dougloid : Let it be remembered that the market is a good servant but a poor master.
39 OA260 : Err well we think the same about you !!! So we will agree to disagree!!!! We are sick of the ''we are Americans and we are superior and ruling the wo
40 Tockeyhockey : taking care of your citizens is one thing, and i think that the US could do a better job of doing that. however, there are reasons why the US remains
41 Scalebuilder : Dear Friend: Did I mention Airbus getting free money? I believe that I did not. That is something you brought up. I don't think I said that Europe is
42 OA260 : I do not agree with giving money to people that can work and choose not too but I do think that someone who is injured or ill and really cant work sh
43 Prebennorholm : Discussing this subject, after 40 posts we have not even touched the real struggle at Airbus. The main problem is the steadily falling value of the do
44 Justloveplanes : Airbus needs funds to catch up with Boeing and the 787. Right now the technology gap is significant and is manifesting itself in the market. The A350
45 Scalebuilder : You got me really curious now. Please explain to me why the Boeing stock is over valued. Thanks! Scalebuilder
46 Prebennorholm : Well, MY crystal ball says that BA is over valued. The reason is that BA is outsourcing production which is impossible to outsource efficiently. The
47 Post contains links OzGlobal : No, the US just officially fell from no. 1 to no. 7 in the W.E.F Ranking of Technological Innovation: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/6502725.stm
48 OA260 : I thought I heard something like that but didnt want to post it until I had the facts. The Swiss have earned my respect, they are very advanced and c
49 Stitch : Boeing has outsourced some production since the 767 and it hasn't come back to haunt them, yet. What has come back to haunt them is the parts they hav
50 Post contains links and images Astuteman : I wouldn't necessarily hold your breath on that one...... See below. (FWIW I think the weight penalty on panels vs barrels is somewhat marginal anywa
51 PanAm_DC10 : A fair observation thank you Stitch. This thread has seen it's fair share, from Socialism to the war in Iraq. After 39 deletions, 4 different Moderat
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