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RB211 Powered 767's  
User currently offlineJholiiday From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 25 posts, RR: 0
Posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 5306 times:

I did some backreading, and I don't understand why BA is the only airline that ordered the 767 with RB211 engines. I know the -524H is interchangable onto the 744 engines, and it would seem that airlines (like CO. with large 757 fleets would benefit from some part sharing, despite their fondness for GE.

[Edited 2007-03-31 00:13:42]


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66 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineCaptain.MD-11 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 704 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 5277 times:

I may be wrong, but I believe that China Yunnan had 767's with RB211's.


Twins,twins, everywhere.... but where are the three holers?
User currently offlineAA61Hvy From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 13977 posts, RR: 57
Reply 2, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 5255 times:

Quoting Captain.MD-11 (Reply 1):
I may be wrong, but I believe that China Yunnan had 767's with RB211's.

You're right, I don't know the name of the airline, but the colors are white, maybe a little lime green stripe too?



Go big or go home
User currently offline1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6642 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 5253 times:

If RR engines were offered earlier on, we could have seen more customers. AA, a major RR customer, ordered the 767 before RR engines were offered. AA however ordered RR engines on their 757s, if the 767 was offered with RR engines from the beginning, then AA would have likely chosen RR for the 767 as well.


The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlineAA61Hvy From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 13977 posts, RR: 57
Reply 4, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 5220 times:


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Go big or go home
User currently offlineAlbird87 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 5188 times:

I thought AA changed some of there 767s to RRs after the purchase of TWA??

User currently offlineOceansWorld From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 5168 times:

Quoting Jholiiday (Thread starter):
I did some backreading, and I don't understand why BA is the only airline that ordered the 767 with RB211 engines. I know the -524H is interchangable onto the 744 engines,

In March 1987 Rolls-Royce and Boeing agreed to consider the 60,600lb-thrust RB.524-D4D engines for the 767. As a resultBA placed an order worth $500 million in August 1987 for 11 B767-300s with options on 15 more. [...] Similar engines also powered the airline's 747-400s.

Source

Quoting Captain.MD-11 (Reply 1):
I may be wrong, but I believe that China Yunnan had 767's with RB211's.

Yes, they had three which are now with MU.


User currently offline1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6642 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 5148 times:

Quoting Albird87 (Reply 5):
I thought AA changed some of there 767s to RRs after the purchase of TWA??

No, AA operates a mix of GE- and P&W-powered 767s. In fact, no airline in the United States operates 767s with RR engines.



The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlineAA737-823 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 5944 posts, RR: 11
Reply 8, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 5112 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 3):
then AA would have likely chosen RR for the 767 as well.

No, they wouldn't.

AA had a HUGE fleet of GE CF-6 eniges. Their DC-10s all had them. Granted, different variant, but still. There's a lot more in common between a CF-6-50 and a CF-6-80 than there is with an RB-211.
Later, they ended up with a ginormous fleet of CF-6 engines, powering all of their widebody aircraft (MD-11, DC-10-10 and -30, 767, and AB6).

It was a huge surprise when they went for Trents on their 777 fleet. I don't think GE saw that coming a mile away.


User currently offline1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6642 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 5092 times:

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 8):
AA had a HUGE fleet of GE CF-6 eniges. Their DC-10s all had them. Granted, different variant, but still. There's a lot more in common between a CF-6-50 and a CF-6-80 than there is with an RB-211.
Later, they ended up with a ginormous fleet of CF-6 engines, powering all of their widebody aircraft (MD-11, DC-10-10 and -30, 767, and AB6).

AA operates 757s with RR engines, however. The RB211-535 (used on the 757) shares something in common with the RB-524 (the RR engine for the 767). RR engines were never offered on the DC-10, MD-11, or A300. As with the 767, if Airbus and McDonnell Douglas offered RR engines on the A300 and MD-11 at the start of their programs, I am totally sure AA would have chosen RR. When AA orders the 787, I am totally positive that AA will chose the Trent 1000.



The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlineBOE773 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 5047 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 9):
I am totally positive that AA will chose the Trent 1000.

Remember, the same words were written with regards to QF;
and we all know what type they went for, the GEnx for their 787s.


User currently offlineZuluTime From United Kingdom, joined May 2006, 172 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 5043 times:

The engines fitted to the BA 767s are RB211-524D4D as opposed to the 757s which have RB211-535E4 or 535C engines depending on which variant (early ones had -535C and later ones had -535E4). It is the same engine core, just operates at higher thrust and temperatures on the 767.

User currently offline1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6642 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 5015 times:

Quoting BOE773 (Reply 10):
Remember, the same words were written with regards to QF;
and we all know what type they went for, the GEnx for their 787s.

The QF order was more contested. They operate a mix of RR and GE 747s and 767s. I woudn't say that QF is as loyal as an RR customer as AA or BA are. BA ordered GE engines on their first few 777s, but RR had a rather slow start on the 777, RR's first major 777 engine selection was for SQ. BA, however, on their next batch of 777s, went back to RR. Like AA, I would expect BA to choose the Trent 1000 on the 787.



The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlineBA319-131 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 8588 posts, RR: 54
Reply 13, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 4998 times:
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Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 7):
AA operates a mix of GE- and P&W-powered 767s

- Not anymore, the P&W machines were x TWA, they have all left the fleet.



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User currently offlineBOE773 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 4992 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 12):
I would expect BA to choose the Trent 1000 on the 787.

Time will tell, but I'd say that GEnx will be the winner with AA.
Buy American and jobs.


User currently offlineReidYYZ From Kyrgyzstan, joined Sep 2005, 536 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 4974 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 12):
BA ordered GE engines on their first few 777s, but RR had a rather slow start on the 777,

I thought that RR were not yet avail for T7 when BA got them, so the GE models were always to be short term lease. Secondly, Delta764: when refering to 'slow start' is it in sales or manufacturing that you are speaking of?


User currently offline1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6642 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 4955 times:

Quoting ReidYYZ (Reply 15):
Secondly, Delta764: when refering to 'slow start' is it in sales or manufacturing that you are speaking of?

Kinda both. The Trent's sales skyrocketed after SQ's order, and is now the leading engine on the 777. However, GE is now catching up, as the GE90 is the exclusive engine for the 777-200LR and 777-300ER.

BTW, Delta has expressed interest in the 787, and I think they will choose GE. In addition to their financing from GE, they are getting some 777-200LRs. Most airlines (except the most loyal RR customers such as AA and BA) who order the 777-200LR ,777-300ER, and 747-8 will probably choose the GEnx for the 787, even if their previous 777s and 747s use RR or P&W engines. I would say that GE also has the edge for United if they order the 787. As for US Airways, it depends if they choose the 787 or the A350. If US Airways continues with the A350 as planned, then they will choose RR by default, as GE has not yet officially confirmed an engine offering for the A350XWB.



The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 6993 posts, RR: 63
Reply 17, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 4773 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 16):
The Trent's sales skyrocketed after SQ's order, and is now the leading engine on the 777.

It was the leading engine for several years but it isn't any more either in terms of orders or deliveries.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 16):
However, GE is now catching up

"catching up"?! GE have long ago passed RR in terms of sales and GE deliveries exceeded RR some time last year.


User currently offlineFruitbat From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2006, 552 posts, RR: 6
Reply 18, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 4769 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 12):
Like AA, I would expect BA to choose the Trent 1000 on the 787.

Expectations are one thing, clear-headed business evaluations another. AA, BA et al will choose whatever offering they think suits them best, financially and operationally. Contrary to popular belief "Brand loyalty" doesn't exist in Airline boardrooms any more - the market is now too competitive to allow any sort of sentiment. It's up to RR and GE to offer the best product that they can with the best operating economics over the life of the engine to maximise returns for the airline.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 16):
BTW, Delta has expressed interest in the 787, and I think they will choose GE. In addition to their financing from GE, they are getting some 777-200LRs.

At this time, with current industry economics, I believe that GE financing will continue to influence a lot of engine selection (and therefore airfame) decisions - particularly for those airlines currently sheltering under bankruptcy protection who will be looking for long term relatively cheap borrowing / funding to convince other creditors and shareholders that they aren't going to repeat the mistakes of the past.



Weaseling out of things is important to learn. It's what separates us from the animals ... except the weasel.
User currently offlineLASOctoberB6 From Japan, joined Nov 2006, 2380 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 4763 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 7):
No, AA operates a mix of GE- and P&W-powered 767s. In fact, no airline in the United States operates 767s with RR engines.

thats probably why i never knew a B767 had RR engines til about a month ago.....



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User currently offlineLTU330 From Germany, joined Jun 2005, 81 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 4740 times:

Quoting ZuluTime (Reply 11):
The engines fitted to the BA 767s are RB211-524D4D as opposed to the 757s which have RB211-535E4 or 535C engines depending on which variant (early ones had -535C and later ones had -535E4). It is the same engine core, just operates at higher thrust and temperatures on the 767.

This is actually incorrect. The engines are -524H on the 767. The 524D4D was installed on the 747-236 with B.A. All the 757s with -535C engines have now left B.A and fly mainly with DHL Europe. Also, the core is not actually the same. It has a similar design (3 shaft), but is bigger. Maybe you are getting mixed up with the 524G and 524H, the 524H having a higher thrust rating that is governed by the programming plug on the FAFC, and software within the aircraft.


User currently offlineKiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8625 posts, RR: 13
Reply 21, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 4630 times:
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Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 9):
RR engines were never offered on the DC-10, MD-11



actually they were 'sort of' offered , ie McD did some studies on a "DC-10-50" for BA with RB211s and they were definitely offered , though never actually flown , on the MD-11 . IIRC Air Europe had 3 RR powered MD-11w on order before they bellied up



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User currently offlineEI321 From Iraq, joined Jul 2009, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 4524 times:

Those RR engines look great on 767s!

User currently offlineTrex8 From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 4869 posts, RR: 14
Reply 23, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 4494 times:
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Quoting PM (Reply 17):
Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 16):The Trent's sales skyrocketed after SQ's order, and is now the leading engine on the 777.
It was the leading engine for several years but it isn't any more either in terms of orders or deliveries.

there was a thread here which claimed that where the airlines have a choice (ie any model except the 773ER/772LR), RR is still ahead

Quoting BOE773 (Reply 14):
Time will tell, but I'd say that GEnx will be the winner with AA.
Buy American and jobs.

21% of the GEnx is from European companies and 15% Japanese. RR has talked about possible Trent 1000 manufacturing and assembly at its RR N America Indianapolis plants. Right now all Trents are still assembled in Derby.


User currently offlineWAH64D From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 966 posts, RR: 14
Reply 24, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 4495 times:

Quoting ZuluTime (Reply 11):
The engines fitted to the BA 767s are RB211-524D4D as opposed to the 757s which have RB211-535E4 or 535C engines depending on which variant (early ones had -535C and later ones had -535E4). It is the same engine core, just operates at higher thrust and temperatures on the 767.

Not correct, see below.

Quoting LTU330 (Reply 20):
This is actually incorrect. The engines are -524H on the 767. The 524D4D was installed on the 747-236 with B.A. All the 757s with -535C engines have now left B.A and fly mainly with DHL Europe. Also, the core is not actually the same. It has a similar design (3 shaft), but is bigger. Maybe you are getting mixed up with the 524G and 524H, the 524H having a higher thrust rating that is governed by the programming plug on the FAFC, and software within the aircraft.

The BA 767s were delivered with RB211-524Gs. These were swapped out for the RB211-524Hs that were delivered on the later B744s. This was done because the B763s engines operate at higher EPR ratings during cruise.

Many believe that the B767-336ERs were put through BAs "dusking" cabin upgrade programme because the RR powered B767s are a bit of an oddity and don't get good prices on the used market, especially in the 8 exits and no over-wings config that BAs are.

The RB211 and subsequently the Trent has served BA very well. They're more complicated from an mx standpoint than similar offerings from GE but I'd be amazed if BA were to go with anything other than RR on a prospective A380/B787 order.

[Edited 2007-03-31 15:11:57]


I AM the No-spotalotacus.
25 Baroque : GE financing could have been a major factor in the QF choice of GE for the 787s, possibly related to the now stalled buyout - QF management assumed t
26 Cardiffairtaxi : I had the pleasure of flying back on one of these BA RR powered 767's,from TLV-LHR last week. Great to look out the window and see that RR badge.
27 Post contains links Lumberton : (Apologies for going OT): then they are taking a lot of risk! Look at this (lengthly) article. What caught my eye was this: http://www.smh.com.au/new
28 Baroque : Yep, I just referred to that article on a different thread. It does consider the issue of selling the delivery positions, but it also seems to conclu
29 BOE773 : It's amazing how many of us have our preferences! I used to be a Pratt fanatic, now a GE fanatic, next maybe RR!!
30 Post contains images Fruitbat : From what i've seen of your posts over the last few months there's as much chance of this as there is of England winning the next Football (Soccer) W
31 CF-CPI : I'm told that there is a weight penalty for hanging the RB211 on the 767 wing. It had to do with the RB211 engine body hanging farther forward and the
32 Post contains images Lumberton : I'm still not sure what GE would have to gain by such a scheme here. Their core business is building and selling gas turbines for aircraft. They have
33 AirbusA6 : Remember, at the time BA specified the RB211 for their 767s, RR was a poor third in the market, if not fourth behind SNECMA is you bear in mind their
34 ACdreamliner : not to be podantic, but GE is a whole lot more than Aero engines. If anything, their core business is light bulbs. quite the company really: - Store C
35 BOE773 : I wonder how much 'Walmartization', (expoitation of lo-cost of off-shore labor) going on at GE and screwing the workforce and society in general on th
36 474218 : GE even owns NBC (National Broadcasting Corporation) the television broadcaster.
37 Trex8 : what are you on about? if they were getting the Chinese and S Koreans etc to do the work, you may be on to something. Getting Europeans and Japanese
38 FlyDreamliner : GE's core business is most certainly not light bulbs. They own a huge media empire (NBC Universal, etc.), are one of the largest lending/banking/insu
39 Albird87 : This may be a weird thing to ask but now that the 77W and 77L have got good sales, is there anyway that RR could actually make a Trent varient for 11
40 Post contains images PM : It was probably me who wrote it! It may even be true... You hide it well.
41 Post contains links and images Imiakhtar : . According to the boeing website, RR powered B767s do have less range and burn more fuel. the exact figures can be found at http://www.boeing.com/co
42 Albird87 : Out of interest why do BA operate the 4 door 767s?? is this to increase capacity?? must be more weight but im suprised that they are one of the few op
43 Post contains images Baroque : Some close to the bid thought by offering whatever premium it was, that it would be a done deal, because nobody, but NOBODY could refuse a bunch of m
44 WAH64D : Nope, you're quite right there, we forgot to mention toasters. Toasters, lightbulbs and aero-engines. Thank the lord BA have a predominantly Trent po
45 Coa747 : Boeing made the call to go exclusive with GE on the 777-200LR and 777-300ER and the upcoming 747-8 so Rolls Royce was effectively locked out of this m
46 WAH64D : To be fair, the similar fuel burn but lower purchase price of the CF6 engine has a lot to do with this. However, they also seem to have a penchant fo
47 PM : I'm afraid they don't. They have 16 with RR and 27 with GE. Engines haven't yet been chosen for the four new 772ERs.
48 WAH64D : Trust me to stick my foot in it, should have done some digging. Almost every time I get on a BA B777-236ER, its one of the G-YMM* reg's with Trent 89
49 Post contains links BOE773 : BA will be looking at the fuel consumption in their decision making for the 777-200ERs. http://www.boeing.com/commercial/startup/pdf/777_perf.pdf Acco
50 Post contains images PM : No doubt among many other factors...
51 WAH64D : I don't think that'll make a great deal of difference as its down to around 2000lbs per typical BA 777 flight in the GE-90s favour. However, BA were
52 Atmx2000 : The CFM-56 was derived from GE engine core and SNECMA fan technology. The GE90 is a new design. One of your acolytes, PM? It's going to be about $2 t
53 PM : Hardly. In fact I was the one who corrected him! Which, I repeat, will be one factor out of a number. It cannot be all that critical or airlines whic
54 Post contains images Atmx2000 : I was referring to the General Evil bashing. Fuel prices were much lower in 1998 when BA bought Trent powered 777s, crude reaching almost $13/barrel.
55 BOE773 : What were the specific reliability problem(s), WAH64D ?
56 WAH64D : 3 IFSDs in one month, all of which were on non ETOPS sectors so didn't tarnish the engine's ETOPS statistics.
57 Post contains images PM : Yeah, but it gives us General Evil bashers a bad name when people don't get their facts straight! Where were fuel prices when NZ chose RR instead of
58 Post contains images Baroque : $US41.49 for WTI for the year. The gurus were still rabbiting on about oil falling to below USD20 "real soon now" so that is about the only mitigatin
59 Movingtin : Ever heard of TAESL? I would say that AA would have to get a hell of a price from GE to NOT go RR. Not true, ALL operations of an engine type effect
60 Post contains links PM : http://www.marketwatch.com/News/Stor...36EDCEBF6%7d&siteid=yhoo&dist=yhoo Yep. British Airways Plc, Europe's third-largest airline, on Monday said it
61 JetMech : No; Really??!!!! Wow, that will be something special. I can hardly wait to see how you twist all the supposed shortcomings of RR into unbeatable adva
62 A342 : Does anybody know which airlines have equipped their RB.211-524Gs/Hs (used on 763s and 744s) with the Trent-derived core, creating the -524G/H-T versi
63 Post contains images Fruitbat : That's a fair point but having an engine overhaul partnership doesn't always influence the final decision - for example LH chose the 747-8 (and there
64 BOE773 : I need you to be more specific again, WAH64D. What were the root causes that caused the 3 IFSDs? Thanks man.
65 Post contains images BOE773 : When you feel a vibration and a strange shaking under you feet in the great land of OZ, JetMech, then you'll know that BOE773 has done a one-eighty
66 WAH64D : I really couldn't say, possibly somebody in the tech forum would know? AFAIK they were oil pressure related but anything further would be guesswork.
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