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Airbus CEO Sees 20 New Orders For A380 This Year 2  
User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (7 years 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 10768 times:

Continued from here:

Airbus CEO Sees 20 New Orders For A380 This Year (by Columba Mar 30 2007 in Civil Aviation)

146 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineTrent900 From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2003, 516 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (7 years 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 10765 times:

Just re-posting my reply from the other thread.....


Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 190):
The 748i outsold the A380 pax version last year.

And was that the 748i's first year for sale? How many orders did the A380 pick-up during its first year? (Not including freighters of course)

D.


User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 2, posted (7 years 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 10730 times:

Quote:

Quoting Zvezda from previous thread:
"The patent issue is just an inconvenience in that Airbus will have to do some engineering. Airbus have an ample sufficiency of good engineers. The engineering challenge is nothing next to overcoming the not-invented-here syndrome."

Didn't Mike Bair say that certain parts of the fuselage mfg process were proprietary, like mandrals? How easy would that be to overcome?



"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offlineBoomBoom From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (7 years 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 10676 times:

Quoting Trent900 (Reply 1):
And was that the 748i's first year for sale? How many orders did the A380 pick-up during its first year? (Not including freighters of course)

Well I suppose if you massage the numbers enough (don't count freighters, only count orders in the first year, do count this, don't count that) you can get any result you want.

What's amazing to me is that since the A380 was introduced in 2000 the 747 has outsold it, 197 to 157. Who would have ever thought?


User currently offlineGbfra From Germany, joined Sep 2006, 448 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (7 years 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 10658 times:

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 3):
What's amazing to me is that since the A380 was introduced in 2000 the 747 has outsold it, 197 to 157. Who would have ever thought?

If someone had been able to predict the famous wiring problem already in 2000, why not? But you would have needed a crystal ball to predict this in 2000.

On the other hand, it was not so difficult to predict that Boeing would present a modernized version of the B747.



The fundamental things apply as time goes by
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 29689 posts, RR: 84
Reply 5, posted (7 years 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 10644 times:
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Quoting Trent900 (Reply 1):
How many orders did the A380 pick-up during its first year?

The A388 program was launched with 48 passenger and 7 freighter orders in December 2000. I don't know when the plane was formally offered for sale, but those orders were recorded starting in April 2000 so it should be close enough to being her first "year".


User currently offlineBoomBoom From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (7 years 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 10637 times:

Quoting Gbfra (Reply 4):
If someone had been able to predict the famous wiring problem already in 2000, why not?

I don't think the dearth of A380 sales can be blamed on the wiring delays. Demand dried up even before the delays were announced.


User currently offlineAstuteman From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 9838 posts, RR: 96
Reply 7, posted (7 years 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 10626 times:
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Quoting Lumberton (Reply 2):
Didn't Mike Bair say that certain parts of the fuselage mfg process were proprietary, like mandrals? How easy would that be to overcome?

Presumably a different design of mandrel.......
They've been around for centuries.. literally......  Smile

Regards


User currently offlineEI321 From Iraq, joined Jul 2009, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (7 years 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 10624 times:

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 3):
What's amazing to me is that since the A380 was introduced in 2000 the 747 has outsold it, 197 to 157. Who would have ever thought?

What I think is pointless about the sales numbers game is the amount of factors that are ignored. Timeframes, Availability, Commonality with Existing fleets, etc etc etc.


User currently offlineBoomBoom From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (7 years 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 10597 times:

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 7):
Presumably a different design of mandrel.......

Easier said than done. If it were really that simple, I think Airbus would be going with a monolithic fuselage barrel on the A350X, instead of the panel approach. The panel approach offers no advantage over aluminum.


User currently offlineTrent900 From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2003, 516 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (7 years 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 10597 times:

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 6):
Demand dried up even before the delays were announced.

Yes, you have a good point here. It'll be interesting to see what happens in the next few years as airliners start to replace the older 744's etc.

All good fun though. It keeps us lot b**ching about things.

D.


User currently offlineAstuteman From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 9838 posts, RR: 96
Reply 11, posted (7 years 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 10554 times:
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Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 10):
Easier said than done. If it were really that simple, I think Airbus would be going with a monolithic fuselage barrel on the A350X, instead of the panel approach. The panel approach offers no advantage over aluminum.

See my IM re same..........

Regards


User currently offlineZvezda From Lithuania, joined Aug 2004, 10511 posts, RR: 64
Reply 12, posted (7 years 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 10512 times:

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 2):
Didn't Mike Bair say that certain parts of the fuselage mfg process were proprietary, like mandrals? How easy would that be to overcome?

There are engineers who specialize in designing mandrels.

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 10):
The panel approach offers no advantage over aluminum.

False. Completely false. CFRP panels have the advantage of greater strength, lighter weight, no corrosion, and no fatigue relative to aluminium panels.


User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 26506 posts, RR: 58
Reply 13, posted (7 years 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 10485 times:

Name: OA260
Date: 2007-04-01 23:06:36
Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 54):
That's not very nice to A380... DC-7 was a big, fast airplane whose engines rarely worked correctly... last time I checked, it's seemingly everything else but the engines that doesn't work right on A380.

Well things certainly seem to be working fine now on the A380 !!!!

Quoting Legoguy (Reply 41):
My opinion will be that most families will prefer the A380 as it's recognised as the largest commercial aircraft at the moment. The kiddies will want to fly on the largest plane, just like they did with the 747

Funny you say that !!! I was out today for a walk and met some neighbours playing with their kids on the beach. They know my connection to the aviation/travel industry and the guy said to me ''whens this new A380 starting to fly, i thinking of taking the kids on it to Australia''. So I just told him what I knew and then he asked his 8 year old son ''do you want to go on the A380'??'' His son seemed so excited and started asking me loads of questions that I was suprised an 8 year old would ask. How far it can fly and how fast it goes. How many people it can take and do they have nintendo on board LOL.....

These are just joe public and not the first that have asked me the same kind of questions. So there is major interest in it on this side of the Atlantic.

Quoting EI321 (Reply 52):
The 787 wont suddenly 'allow' that, its already here. Despite all the hype of point to point, the vast majority of 787 flights will go though at least one hub.

The 787 will of course operate to hubs . UA will use it for ORD hub. I dont think we are going to see AUS to HKG!!!

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 43):
Only kiddies would choose a plane because it's the largest. Adults will choose, based on price schedule, quality of service, frequent flyer program, etc.

Some big kids will also choose it because its the largest but thats just the novelty factor. With regards Adults choosing based on frequent flyer programs then SQ and LH will most certainly get their regular Kris flyers and Senetors onboard. I do think that it will be exciting to see EK and what they do with their A380's.


Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 6):
I don't think the dearth of A380 sales can be blamed on the wiring delays. Demand dried up even before the delays were announced.

I just think airlines want to see how SQ get on and then decide if its for them or not .



AEGEAN-OLYMPIC AIR - ΟΛΥΜΠΙΑΚΗ " μέλος στη Star Alliance
User currently offlineDanny From Poland, joined Apr 2002, 3505 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (7 years 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 10392 times:

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 9):
The panel approach offers no advantage over aluminum.

You meant composite barrels offer no advantage over composite panels? That seems to be right.


User currently offlineBoomBoom From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (7 years 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 10367 times:

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 12):
False. Completely false. CFRP panels have the advantage of greater strength, lighter weight, no corrosion, and no fatigue relative to aluminium panels.



Quote:
Initially, Boeing and its partners explored making each barrel of the 7E7's fuselage out of several large composite panels that would be bolted together to form a cylinder. That's the way aluminum planes are made.

"When you got right down to it, there was no advantage," Statkus said. "It was like black aluminum. If it's just a panel here and a panel here and a panel here all bolted down, it's just like metal."

http://www.chicagotribune.com/techno...techtopheds-hed&ctrack=1&cset=true


User currently offlineEI321 From Iraq, joined Jul 2009, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (7 years 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 10359 times:

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 9):
The panel approach offers no advantage over aluminum.

Ok, I'll let you away with that one considering todays date.


User currently offlineBoomBoom From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (7 years 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 10353 times:

Quoting Danny (Reply 14):
You meant composite barrels offer no advantage over composite panels? That seems to be right.

Wrong. According to the article:

Quote:
Bolting panels together means the edges of those panels have to be made thicker to accommodate the bolts. Not only would that add weight, but it would also require lots of seams and joints. Those connections would fatigue like aluminum and require regular rounds of expensive maintenance.


User currently offlineDanny From Poland, joined Apr 2002, 3505 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (7 years 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 10316 times:

This is just a hypothesis not a fact. Why exactly they claim connections between barrels are supposed to be so much better better that between panels remains mystery.

Chicago Tribune is hardly an expert in composite technology. Most likely they copied that from materials received from Boeing (aren't they based in Chicago?).

Expensive maintenance will be to remove a barrel that got hit in an accident.

[Edited 2007-04-02 00:10:56]

User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 29689 posts, RR: 84
Reply 19, posted (7 years 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 10297 times:
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Quoting Danny (Reply 18):
Expensive maintenance will be to remove a barrel that got hit in an accident.

Fortunately (or unfortunately, as the case may be), any impact strong enough to write-off a CFRP fuselage barrel would write-off an AL structure (as well as a CFRP on aluminum structure).


User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (7 years 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 10298 times:

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 9):
Easier said than done. If it were really that simple, I think Airbus would be going with a monolithic fuselage barrel on the A350X, instead of the panel approach. The panel approach offers no advantage over aluminum.

I think Boomboom is talking about complete barrels vs panels.. I think "ramp rash" is a serious one for the airlines. When deep intrusions occur now, panels are removed to repair structural damage and then (mostly) new panels are put on. I wonder what the procedure will be if trucks start driving into 787s. Incidents like this happen a lot in operation.

http://www.google.nl/search?hl=nl&q=%22ramp+rash%22+composites&meta=

[Edited 2007-04-02 00:17:17]

User currently offlineDanny From Poland, joined Apr 2002, 3505 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (7 years 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 10291 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 19):
Fortunately (or unfortunately, as the case may be), any impact strong enough to write-off a CFRP fuselage barrel would write-off an AL structure (as well as a CFRP on aluminum structure).

The issue is with small structural damage invisible to human eye. I can't believe you would assume that there is no damage and continue flying.


User currently offline2wingtips From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (7 years 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 10286 times:

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 12):
False. Completely false. CFRP panels have the advantage of greater strength, lighter weight, no corrosion, and no fatigue relative to aluminium panels.

Agreed. However, it's not as advanced as the Boeing approach with composite barrels. You are completely wrong suggesting Airbus is up to speed on composites. They are way behind Boeing in this field and the various posturings on the A350 are ample evidence of this. There will be some corrosion with CFRP panels as they are attached to an aluminium frame. The Airbus reasoning for going with the panels(easier to replaced damaged panels) is particularly lame IMO.


User currently offlineBoomBoom From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (7 years 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 10279 times:

Quoting Danny (Reply 18):
This is just a hypothesis not a fact. Why exactly they claim connections between barrels are supposed to be so much better better that between panels remains mystery.

Because there's far fewer of them.

Remember when Airbus told us Al-Li was better than composites? That composites were risky, and they wouldn't use their customers as guinea pigs? Then they changed their position. Don't be surprised if they change again and go to monolithic fuselage barrels.

Personally, I hope they stick to the composite panel approach, as that will make the A350XWB much less competitive.


User currently offlineDanny From Poland, joined Apr 2002, 3505 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (7 years 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 10278 times:

Quoting Keesje (Reply 20):
I wonder what the procedure will be if trucks start driving into 787s

Will they have to split aircraft into two pieces to remove one of middle barrels?


25 Danny : If there is good technology to connect 10 pieces, it can be used to connect 20 pieces. edited for spelling[Edited 2007-04-02 00:24:21]
26 Brendows : Keesje: you have been told this before, no barrels will be replaced if a 787 is struck by a truck, and no panels will be replaced on a A350XWB if it
27 Keesje : search?hl=nl&q=%22ramp rash%22 composites&meta=> That you can remove it if neccesary & put a new one on?
28 Zvezda : The connections between barrels don't suffer any hoop stresses; connections between panels do. I never suggested that. I suggested that Airbus are no
29 WAH64D : Sorry Zvezda, thats crazy. CFRP can be completely destroyed behind the upper skin and still look normal to visual inspection. In the case of majority
30 Stitch : Boeing has already developed techniques that can accurately detect defects in the CFRP matrix from the outer surface all the way through to the inner
31 BoomBoom : Well, that would be true for the A350 too as well as the A380 wings. Do you think everytime a catering truck hits an A350, or some other incident occ
32 2wingtips : Your #175 reply in the locked thread clearly implied Airbus were technologically up to speed with composites. Whatever you wish to say, I will add th
33 Stitch : One advantage of CFRP (for both the 787 and A350XWB) is that it will eventually reach a "fatigue floor" and as such will (supposedly) never fatigue a
34 StressGuy : Hello All, I have enjoyed reading this forum for some time now and have finally joined! This is my first post so please correct me if I break any rule
35 BoomBoom : Will this be true for the Airbus panel approach? I thought there was a corrosion problem between aluminum and CRFP.
36 Post contains images Stitch : The panels themselves should derive the same benefits, being CFRP. As to the fasteners and ribs/stringers (if Airbus chooses to make them out of Al),
37 Keesje : That will require huge, enormous patches..
38 WAH64D : You are correct, I didn't say otherwise. CFRP is not the wonder material its often touted to be on a.net. Trust me, If you drive a set of stairs or a
39 RichardPrice : Solved many many years ago outside of the airline industry, who are actually rather late to the party.
40 Zvezda : Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Most such impacts occur at very, very low speeds.
41 AutoThrust : The doublers, joints and stringers will be CFRP on the A350XWB. Btw, Airbus mentioned they have a technology to keep down the problem of corrosion be
42 RichardPrice : During their 2006 XWB industrial launch presentation, those items were not CFRP.
43 Post contains images AutoThrust : I'm not sure about this i could swear they did, however why FI is claiming that?
44 RichardPrice : Interesting, I could be wrong then - I could have sworn that they werent CFRP according to the Airbus presentation.
45 Post contains images Stitch : But neither is it the brittle material that will be dented in a soft breeze it is also often touted to be on a.net. As Zvezda notes above me and I an
46 Post contains images Astuteman : Actions always speak louder than words...... Regards
47 SEPilot : This has been covered in previous posts, but the point is two-fold: first, the length of joint is much shorter leading to far fewer fasteners, shorte
48 BoomBoom : Why, if the area that's damaged is small? And the 20 piece one will weigh twice as much.
49 Post contains images Astuteman : Just a couple of points of order (IMO) I'm a big a fan of the monolithic barrel approach vs. the "panel" approach (over the panel approach). However:
50 SEPilot : The issue, as I see it, is the hoop stress on the joints between panels. While the stress from pressurization will affect all joints equally the join
51 EI321 : There appears to be a trade off here between weight and technical risk. I would like to know what the weight difference is for those extra joints. Is
52 Post contains images Zvezda : My estimate is 1-2% of OEW. I don't believe this is true in the barrel case. The frames are there to provide attachment points as much as anything. T
53 Post contains images Astuteman : But that's my point. This is not correct. The frames will bear the brunt of that burden. You do NOT have an unsupported length of joint of 18m+. It's
54 Post contains images Brendows : I highly agree with that, we will know more in the coming months. And now everyone, what about trying to stay on topic?
55 Post contains images Astuteman : F**k me! Another expert! The crew'll be right please to hear that when the water's p**sing into the boat at 50 atmospheres and 1500 ft...... And Deny
56 BoomBoom : I'm sure they will too, but how long will it take--another two years perhaps?
57 SEPilot : No I'm not; I did not realize that weight was such an issue on a submarine. My apologies. I do not agree with this; the panels still have to be faste
58 Post contains images Astuteman : No need. I hope you caught the fun in my response. But the message is true. It's HUGELY important Don't disagree - There's another few kg's.... But t
59 Lumberton : But if they "come close" to a procedure similar to Boeing's, don't they run the risk of legal action by Boeing? Not that Boeing would win, but they c
60 Astuteman : FWIW I think that the negotiation of the workshares will have more impact on the EIS than the technicalities of producing CFRP barrels. You get the l
61 Zvezda : I estimate nearer 500kg, much of it due to the stronger and stiffer frames required in the panel design. I recall the comment of Winston Churchill, t
62 Stitch : I am sure Airbus will be very careful in documenting how they and their suppliers/fabricators developed the technology and implemented it. Boeing's I
63 Lumberton : They sure will, but they will always be open to "nuisance" legal actions. Boeing would have nothing to lose if there were even the chance that such l
64 SEPilot : Yes, I did; but I was still voicing an opinion on something I knew nothing about. My point is that the pressure will actually tend to tighten the sea
65 Astuteman : I'd probably compromise on this one if it wasn't for the fact that the 787 is NOT cylindrical. A vessel pressurised from the inside really, REALLY wa
66 RichardPrice : Courts frown on such tactics, hence why I dont think it will happen. Besides - CFRP, both spun and panelled, has been in use for decades, so it would
67 Post contains images Astuteman : Very good point. 15-All!......... Regards
68 DeltaDC9 : It is'nt though. That is a very interesting observation! Developing a process that does not infringe on Boeing might not be as cost or time effective
69 Astuteman : That's a very interesting observation, too...... I guess it wouldn't be the first time..... Regards
70 Post contains images Zvezda : In other words, the corners. Yes, the tolerances at the corners will be a challenge. I would be inclined to arrange the panels such that four corners
71 Post contains images Astuteman : I hear what you say, Z. Just can't bring myself to buy that - sorry. I can't see how c2 to 3mm of CFRP over that great a span is anywhere near rigid
72 SEPilot : That assumes that Boeing is willing to let them. Would you if you were in Boeing's position?
73 Lumberton : No, that would be ill advised in my opinion. Just like it was ill advised not to take Bill Clinton up on his offer to revisit the launch aid agreemen
74 Elvis777 : Howdy all, I've read with great interests the comments concerning the builing of airframes using panels vs barrels... It reminds me of the great argum
75 Zvezda : The 787 fuselage is up to 25mm thick in some places. As I pointed out above, part of the reason is to provide attachment points. Without frames, to w
76 Post contains images Astuteman : Wow! Can we borrow some?... I can feel a purchase order coming on tomorrow Regards
77 Post contains images Astuteman : A serious response, then. I dectect two portions of fish here for the price of one. First portion... In the science museum, in London, there is a com
78 DeltaDC9 : They use each others patents all the time, that is the nature of the business. The question is will they do it for something so fundamental in nature
79 Zvezda : Four WhaleJets per month is the highest rate planned. For any airliner, after the backlog is depleted, it's time to close the line. I believe the 747
80 Post contains links BoomBoom : If Airbus goes with spun barrels for the A350, what happens to the customer's that ordered the current version like QR? Will they be willing to wait o
81 DeltaDC9 : Thanks, for some reason I thought it was higher. Point being they will be building them faster than they are selling them it seams. It increased from
82 SEPilot : I think you've mixed something up; that's 144 to 216 a year. They've never sold that many.
83 Zvezda : Net WhaleJet sales last year were 7. How many convoys were there last year?
84 Post contains images DeltaDC9 : Wow, males definately cannot multitask, at least me anyway. Annual production went from 12 to 18 now soon to 24. Yikes! Thats why I said "will be" ac
85 Post contains links Areopagus : From Flug Revue:Mike Bair dismisses these fears by saying, “Ramp rash was actually a concern of the customers, but CFRP is a lot stronger than alum
86 Zvezda : I seem to recall 25 inches rather than 20 inches, but I wouldn't bet a finger on it. Yes, thank you for explaining better than I did.
87 Post contains images Rheinbote : Not completely right. Less fatigue and less corrosion, much less so indeed. But not entirely free of fatigue and corrosion. May sound academic to you
88 Zvezda : I don't believe the 787 employs butt splices.
89 Areopagus : I believe those are half-lap splices, as described above by SEPilot, not butt splices. This strengthens the structure against the longitudinal pressu
90 Post contains links Rheinbote : Yet it does. You just need to find a larger version of the image depicted on this page http://www.hurriyetusa.com/haber/haber_detay.asp?id=8579
91 Rheinbote : There's a circumferential splice plate on the inside of the joint between the barrels, the barrels do not overlap. If you call something like that ha
92 Zvezda : " target=_blank>http://www.hurriyetusa.com/haber/hab...=8579 Turche anlamayoram. The photo doesn't help at all. There is nothing in your link that ind
93 DeltaDC9 : OK, this is getting stupid, those figures are MONTHLY. I will now go back under my rock.....
94 JayinKitsap : I am no way an expert in planes, but I am a structural engineer that designs fiberglass tanks as part of my practice (the 787 CFRP focused my interes
95 Post contains images Astuteman : Many thanks for the detailed explanation Jay. Agree Agree again. Agree again. Single piece is definitely the most effective solution. It will still n
96 Joni : I disagree completely concerning this. It's quite likely that e.g. the B787 does infringe (or more precisely, would be found in a US court by a lay j
97 Art : I'm wondering if Airbus have adopted the fuse barrel as their preferred design approach but are checking to see if they can do it. A380 orders - if 2
98 EI321 : I suspect that with any certification programme, theres a constant stream of date. Re: Composite fuselages and hoop stresses etc, perhaps start a fre
99 Stitch : I believe Boeing also performed sufficient "due diligence" to ensure they didn't infringe on Airbus patents, either. Again, all this stuff is in the
100 DeltaDC9 : There is no evidence of this that I am aware of. Simply a matter of when certain products were introduced and the need or lack thereof to reduce weig
101 SEPilot : If Airbus wants to wait 17 years for the patents to expire they're welcome. What would the point of having the patents if they just let Airbus use th
102 Joni : I did a search for post-1990 European patents for Airbus and Boeing that relate to composites and came up with 138 filings for Airbus and 107 for Boe
103 BoomBoom : Boeing has its hands full just keeping up with demand for the 787. Same for the subcontractors. I cant imagine them taking on work for the A350.
104 Lumberton : Well, I suspect it depends on the methods used to apply composites in the production process. This could be deemed proprietary? As noted earlier, man
105 DeltaDC9 : Royalties, coproations do it all the time. The work is a long way off and any company can do it, including Airbus themselves ans long as Boeing says
106 Post contains links and images Astuteman : I'm sure I've referenced this thread a number of times......... Finmeccanica To Join Airbus In Building The A350XW (by Manni Mar 29 2007 in Civil Avi
107 BoomBoom : Why does it seem this way? Did you read all 245 patents before coming to this conclusion? Source please?
108 SEPilot : Sure they do; but when you have only one competitor in the world royalties are peanuts. It makes a lot more sense to make them figure out for themsel
109 Post contains images Rheinbote : As I said, you need to find a larger version of that image. Barrels are butt-joined with a broad splice strap backing up the joint on the inside. The
110 Post contains images Astuteman : As an afterthought after looking at that photo, I'm presuming the wider frame spacing is driven by the bigger windows.... (good A380 thread this, isn
111 Areopagus : I don't think that image supports your conclusion. It is not of high enough resolution to show a circumferential line. I don't think a butt joint wou
112 Zvezda : Sorry, Rheinbote, but I think Areopagus is correct. A butt splice through the window makes no sense.
113 Post contains images Astuteman : Hope they're strong enough - if they're only for attachments..... (I tried, honest......) Regards
114 Rheinbote : I'm with you that this doesn't seem to fit with common understanding. However, I positively know that the joint between S43 and S44 is a butt joint,
115 JayinKitsap : Looking at the picture it appears that an O doubler could have been added at the window and there is a forest of fasteners above the window. In the b
116 Zvezda : Splicing at the window would solve a tolerance problem.
117 Post contains images Areopagus : If that is so, then you presumably have another source of knowledge. I agree that a smooth half-lap joint on a structure this big requires astonishin
118 SEPilot : A butt joint is easier than a half-lap tolerance wise, but it adds the disadvantage of creating a discontinuity at the joint which I presume would hav
119 Post contains links Rheinbote : I've only seen it with the two S46(?) barrels that have been used for the above mating test: http://www.flightglobal.com/assets/getAsset.aspx?ItemID=
120 Areopagus : Sure enough, that first image does show a window cutout at the end. On the other hand, each image shows an unpainted strip at one end, and I don't kno
121 Zvezda : It wouldn't be obvious in a piece that large from such a distance.
122 Post contains links Joni : Those can be patented if there is an inventive step involved. The low number of applications filed by A&B would imply that the applications tend to b
123 BoomBoom : The articles you quote are comparing apples to oranges. One talks about weight of the entire plane and the other a percentage of the primary structur
124 Post contains links EI321 : The 787 is 50% composites by weight according to Boeing: http://www.boeing.com/commercial/787family/programfacts.html
125 Rheinbote : Bitching about low single digit percentage differences in composite content is quite useless. What's the value of having 52% (A's A350XWB claim) versu
126 Zeke : Boeing in their documents say that the 787 is using 50% composites in its "primary flight structures". The A350XWB launch document says that the airc
127 Post contains images BoomBoom : 2% sounds like a rounding exercise.
128 Pygmalion : The barrels on the 787 are joined with butt joints with an internal splice strap running around the inside. To use the illustration method above aa aa
129 Pygmalion : the frames in monocoque aircraft, CFRP or Al, carry very little hoop loading. The frames are spaced a couple inches away from the skin on the inside t
130 Zvezda : Thank you for the confirmation. It seemed so obvious to me, but apparently not to some others.
131 HB88 : No. There is no good faith required in enforcing a patent. Although the doctrine of laches might apply, there is no hard and fast rule about penalisi
132 Pygmalion : The use of patents requires disclosure of the technology to obtain the patent. Most large companies in the US maintain their IP as a "trade secret" an
133 Areopagus : I've been wondering just what shear ties are, i.e., how they're shaped and fastened.
134 Joni : I agree, which is what I meant by "Can't find more detailed info right now" in Reply 122. This is certainly true. This is normally assessed on a case
135 DeltaDC9 : An everyday example of this is the recipe for Coca Cola. Look at the can, the "natural flavorings" are a trade secret and have been for like 100 year
136 Post contains images BoomBoom : If you can't be bothered searching for it, why should I? After all, you're the one who brought it up. Then why did you bring it up in the first place
137 RichardPrice : Ahh this is interesting - you have in the past demanded I supply you with links to information on the French, German and Italian Airbus loans when I
138 BoomBoom : The problem is Richard, whenever the issues of subsidies comes up you say they are being paid back and point to the UK government documents as proof.
139 Rheinbote : I guess the primary purpose of the frames is to keep the fuselage cross section from ovalizing under bending due to static loads while on ground, as
140 RichardPrice : Then why arent you doing the work for yourself? *You* want the French, German and Spanish information, go get it *yourself* - Im only interested in t
141 BoomBoom : Sorry, that excuse doesn't cut it.
142 Post contains images Pygmalion : Big green    Just to clarify, the floor shear loads are accel/decel loads and in particular, transfer the 16G crash load case for the seats imposed
143 JayinKitsap : In tanks, ducts and similar shell structures in the cases of unbalanced loads, non round shapes, and axial compression forces the shell needs to be b
144 SkyyMaster : A suggestion to the mods - the last 150 or so posts made to this and the previous thread - what do they have to do with the subject title? I know EVER
145 Zvezda : I very much doubt that. CFRP is several times stiffer (i.e. more rigid) than steel. It has very little estacity.
146 Post contains images Curmudgeon : To quantify this, the common structural metals and wood share similar stiffness/weight ratios. Aramid fibres, then HS carbon fibre, then HM carbon fi
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